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Em dashes are fucking amazing

https://psychotechnology.substack.com/p/em-dashes-are-fucking-amazing
48•surprisetalk•59m ago

Comments

jdw64•50m ago
I feel like people only look at the form and ignore the substance of the content. Honestly, as long as the content itself is well written and the em-dash is used correctly, I don't think it really matters.

When I first learned about em-dashes, I was told they were a mark of sophisticated, intellectual writing. But now people say they sound like AI. Is that really a bad thing?

It's strange to see sophistication become low-class just because AI uses it. It makes me think that form is really about who the author is, not the form itself.

In that sense, I'm not sure what it even means to be 'human-like.' Being human-like just feels like an illusion that people who want to believe in it keep insisting on

sarreph•24m ago
I too find it a pity that the em-dash has been co-opted by AI. I use a double-hyphen ("--", the old school way of writing it), but fear that this will also become used by AI seeking a higher form of 'sophistication' as you put it.

We're experiencing broad scale changes in the sentiment of style in written English. I don't know what the best approach to take here is necessarily, but the more I see language evolving over time (especially over the past two decades) I think I'd prefer to shift my habits in line with whatever the "modern standard" is in order to avoid falling into pitfalls, i.e. being accused of being an AI writer.

1718627440•10m ago
> ("--", the old school way of writing it)

The old school of writing it in digital documents. Typesetting predates and is not limited to digital documents.

nephihaha•22m ago
The em-dash-as-AI trope is nothing new. (Apart from the fact that MS Word etc convert them automatically.)

If I post some information, then I have had people accusing me of cribbing it off Wikipedia. When I have translated from some languages, people assume I'm using Google. Even though in one case, the language in question wasn't even available on Google Translate. (I went and checked.)

ssivark•16m ago
> people only look at the form and ignore the substance of the content.

This is largely because most people are incapable of thinking critically and evaluating substance. So they regress to indirect markers of good writing, and the whole thing becomes a game of signaling.

The rot is so deep, many popular resources on writing focus more on style and presentation than focusing on the substance of writing. And even when best-intentioned, all this does is make poor writing a bit more palatable by giving it a veneer of polish.

brazzy•5m ago
The problem is that the substancelessness of AI writing nowadays tends to be subtle and well-hidden (but huge). Focusing on superficial "tells" is basically an attempt of a quick, cheap defense against the imbalance of human effort, where someone can spend a few dollars and a few minutes and e.g. generate dozens of PRs that would take many hours of real human effort to process and fix the deeper shortcomings of.
xgulfie•23m ago
The economy may collapse and the job market rendered irreparable but the real victims of the AI boom are the em-dash and the sparkle emoji
lapcat•15m ago
We can talk about more than one thing.

There are other articles, indeed articles submitted to Hacker News, that talk about the effects of AI on the economy and the job market.

lapcat•18m ago
LLMs were trained on human writing, especially professional, published writing. Now longtime writers suffer two injustices: their work is stolen without permission or compensation by the LLM vendors, and if the writers continue to write as they always have, they’re accused of using the very LLMs that have copied their writing.

Having said that, I wouldn’t take writing advice from the article author, who seems a bit loopy.

icedchai•18m ago
Troglodyte here... I never use em dashes, never use semicolons, overuse ellipses and commas.
cwmoore•8m ago
You have ellipses… on my iOS, “…” have become one triple-dot
jtagrgh•17m ago
I really don't get liking em dashes. Just use two sentences or modify your original one. Both options are clearer like 90% of the time.
akaike•15m ago
AI ruined them for me. I used to use them all the time. Now, whenever I do, I get called out for using AI.
jimbokun•10m ago
Don’t let the haters win.
etempleton•10m ago
Same. It is really annoying to write something and have someone say, “just so you know, em dash makes obvious it was written by AI.” You know how else uses em dashes? People who know how to write.
thewoodsman•4m ago
So... fuck 'em? Hit 'em with a: "You're absolutely right — em dashes are a common signifier of AI" and go about your business. Anyone creating on the internet[1] is running laps around the class of losers who run from post to post dropping useless comments.

[1]: I'd even go so far as to extend that "anyone" to: "anyone creating, even with AI assistance!"

quantummagic•8m ago
It sounds like people ruined them for you — it isn't AI calling you out for using them.
drob518•4m ago
Same.
koolala•14m ago
Test: 'There is no greater joy in life than typing a sentence, realising it needs a clarification, a caveat, an addendum, but in the same sentence, not a new one, and, guess what, the comma is right there for you. You want to package things neatly together, and the comma lets you do exactly this. Commas make writing feel like you are assembling lego bricks.'

I like using commas for spacing though em dashes do the same thing and avoid the run-on police?

url00•8m ago
It's a bit like 2 space indention versus 4 or 8 space. I find the em-dash example pretty compelling because visually relaxes my eye more than commas do — similar to how prefer at least 4 space indention over 2.

(Unrelated: The alt-code for em-dash on Windows is Alt+0151. I just typed my first manual em-dash wow exciting.)

pohl•8m ago
Your first sentence is a perfect example of why emdashes need to exist. The comma is overloaded, since it can be used both as a list separator and for parenthetical asides. But that first sentence starts using them as a list separator, and then inserts a parenthetical aside into the list. Emdash wins this test.
uberman•4m ago
I would always prefer to do:

"There is no greater joy in life than typing a sentence, realising it needs a clarification, a caveat, an addendum (in the same sentence, not a new one) and, guess what, parentheses are right there for you."

john_strinlai•13m ago
i typically enjoy a good profanity-laden rant, but something about this particular one feels very forced. this sentence, for example: "[...] What if someone points one out in my writing?”. Bitch, please.". i cant really put my finger on why, but it almost feels like the author wrote their rant, then came back afterwards with a quota of fuck/shit/bitch they wanted to meet, placing them wherever they could.

in any case, i mostly agree with the author that ai has co-opted too many things to be concerned about it anymore. i remember being linked a list of "1,000 words not to use" because ai used them a lot (e.g. "delve", "absolutely", etc.) and the venn diagram with the 1,000 most common english words was practically a circle. you would be unintelligible if you rigorously avoided them all. now i just write without care of my ai-similarity score.

jimbokun•9m ago
It smacks of “Hitler also lived…(some innocuous thing).”
moron4hire•13m ago
It's interesting that an article extoling the virtues of the em-dash isn't using them correctly. They don't get spaces around them.
etempleton•9m ago
I have seen this more and more and I don’t understand it.
Forgeties79•7m ago
That’s not entirely true. Some formats yes. In this case they’re using it correctly https://www.merriam-webster.com/grammar/em-dash-en-dash-how-...
ubitaco•9m ago
I didn't know that AP style recommended spaces either side of the em dash. Here in the UK we generally use en dashes instead, and I thought em dashes always had no spaces. Apparently the wire machines that AP sent their news out by in olden times couldn't always do en dashes.
WillAdams•9m ago
One of the more memorable and influential library finds for me was an article in _Advertising Age_ which enumerated all of the special characters which should be set so as to accurately communicate, so in addition to en and em dashes it noted:

- − (minus symbol) for use in math equations or to indicate a negative

- I believe it also noted that there were two forms for the hyphen, normal and discretionary

- × (multiplication symbol) for use in dimensions and when actually indicating multiplication

- ′ and ″ (single and double primes) for use when indicating feet and inches, or minutes and seconds

- it also made explicit the difference between º (ordinal o) and ° (degree symbol) and noted when to make use of the other ordinals

- … while available as a special character, it is often better to construct this using suitably sized non-breaking spaces

- © ® ™ ℠ ℗ (copyright and so forth) to indicate such legal constructs as appropriate

- the various spaces en and em space, non-breaking flex space, &c.

I _think_ I still have a photocopy somewhere, but really should find a copy of the actual magazine....

The far more egregious and reprehensible thing is that many books now are published using quite pedestrian typing of the near equivalents from the keyboard as opposed to actually typing the correct signs.

I wrote a bit on this at:

https://tug.org/texshowcase/onetype.pdf

(note that it intended to be printed, folded, cut in the center, then re-folded so as to make a "hot dog" booklet: https://www.makingbooks.com/hotdog.shtml )

comrade1234•8m ago
iOS settings-> general->keyboard

Turn off smart punctuation.

Saves bytes.

andsoitis•8m ago
One thing I've always loved about Apple's OSs is that they will render an em dash if you press-and-hold the hyphen key.

Great accessibility.

mkagenius•8m ago
> Are you writing for an internet rando who’s got nothing better to do than to hunt for em dashes?

Some people even take pride on being able to detect (often falsely) AI generated work.

upghost•7m ago
I do indeed mis-using dashes.
cubefox•7m ago
Spaced en dashes are far more common internationally. Em dashes are primarily a US American tradition.
jssmith•6m ago
I get it. But I never would have until I built muscle memory for the keyboard shortcut.
gumby•6m ago
LLMs use em- dashes because they appear in the training set. In other words, humans use them a lot. Such a weird issue to be adopted as an indicator of robot text.
drob518•5m ago
> “But what would people think of my writing if I ever used an em dash? What if someone points one out in my writing?”. Bitch, please.

Hell yes, and ROFL. I’m tired of em dashes being cited as evidence of AI.

mmsc•4m ago
and here i thought "option -" was an em-dash, but no, it's an _en_-dash.

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