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Postmortem for Kernel Soundness Bug #14576

https://leodemoura.github.io/blog/2026-8-1-postmortem-for-kernel-soundness-bug-14576/
34•juhopitk•1h ago

Comments

juhopitk•1h ago
"A soundness bug in the Lean kernel (#14576) was reported and fixed during the week of July 27. [...] On July 25, Ramana Kumar published a repository containing a sorry-free "disproof" of the Collatz conjecture, produced with AI assistance. It is not a valid proof because it exploits a bug in the kernel's handling of nested inductive types. On July 28, Kiran Gopinathan reduced it to a small proof of False and opened issue #14576."
vatsachak•32m ago
And everyone who's been into this stuff for a while has had their prediction come through.

If AI is water, Lean is the pipe and collatz is a clog on one end, then surely we'll find the cracks.

de_aztec•27m ago
So essentially: One cannot trust the code produced by an LLM, even if the code is a formal proof passing the verifier.
fancy_pantser•15m ago
One can only trust a verifier as far as they can trust anything made out of software.
gr_norm•25m ago
> The practical consequence: checking with an independent kernel still works, since it required two distinct bugs in two implementations, but users who rely on it need current versions of both.

Things like this aren't too surprising, given that even much simpler type checkers like Rust's have soundness issues occasionally. I think it's very important to view verified results not as an absolute and unbreakable guarantee, just an extraordinarily strong one where (1) the surface area for soundness issues has been painstakingly minimized and (2) any realized soundness issues are taken very seriously and fixed in short order.

rzmmm•12m ago
The implementation of the kernel is relatively trivial, it's an intentional design choice.
remywang•25m ago
Isn’t a disproof of the Collatz conjecture easy to check as it should just be a counterexample? Or is the proof not constructive?
cperciva•15m ago
A counterexample of the form "X cycles to X after N steps" is easy to check. A counterexample of the form "starting with X we keep going up forever" is hard to check in finite time.
IsTom•5m ago
And still that requires X to not be particularly large. It could conceivably be in ballpark of BB(40).
as1297•20m ago
Lean has Claude contributions, what do you expect!

Use Coq or Isabelle or any other decent theorem prover. Lean is just hyped.

Ar-Curunir•14m ago
[delayed]
adw•13m ago
What is the error rate of human programmers? Anyone who tells you that either human or A.I. code is magically exempt from issues is selling you something.

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