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Denmark Requires Oral Defenses for Students' Written Work to Counter AI Cheating

https://mezha.net/eng/bukvy/ca117584_denmark_requires_oral/
95•theanonymousone•58m ago

Comments

ModernMech•40m ago
This is a good move. I teach a summer async remote course that's ending next week, but I'm giving all the students incompletes until they come back to campus and take an in-person exam the first week of classes. All homework is worth a marginal amount, and if they fail the final they fail the class.

I'm not going to spend my effort policing whether they're using AI or not in their class work because it's a losing battle. At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not. It makes the exams higher stakes, but that's where we are.

glimshe•37m ago
I'd never pay to have you as a teacher, I'm sorry. Maybe your move makes a sense for the reputation of your university's degree, but as a student willing to pay to learn remotely, I'd not accept to be treated like children.
williamcotton•33m ago
Are you after learning or an accredited degree?
throw_m239339•32m ago
Well that's part of the issue with for profit education, if the student pays significant money for tuition, is he a customer or a student?
majormajor•26m ago
"The student is the customer" is a stupid metaphor that only caught on because a lot of people would rather just bring in dollars than worry about "are we actually teaching anything?"
hackyhacky•10m ago
It's not a metaphor. They are literally the customer.
trentor•31m ago
You can learn remotely in his class. That's the whole point he is trying to make. Hybrid does not mean fully remote. If you want fully remote take a full remote class.
pdhborges•30m ago
Are you willing to pay to learn remotely from a university with crappy reputation?
pjmorris•29m ago
Do you think 'At the end of the day, they can either demonstrate mastery of the material at an exam or not' is a reasonable expectation for an adult?

If so, how would an adult be treated while still expecting them to demonstrate mastery?

If not, what do you think a reasonable expectation for an adult should be?

cortesoft•28m ago
If you only care about the learning, then you could just take the incomplete. You don’t somehow lose the knowledge you gained.

The only cost of an incomplete is it doesn’t help towards a degree, but a degree is just a signaling mechanism. If you want to be able to use their degree to signal something to someone, you will have to jump through their hoops.

majormajor•27m ago
Adults don't have to prove things?

As AI eats up the need for half-assed "I googled a few things and wrote something up and then slacked off for five hours" white-collar-paperwork jobs, it's gonna be pretty hard for people not willing or able to demonstrate that they can do anything that couldn't just be fully done with an "agent" instead.

bonoboTP•25m ago
Regular graded assignments is the "treated like children" version. The adult treatment is that you can come to class if you want, you can do the assignments if you want, but if not, that's fine too. There is one test at the end, and it's your responsibility to prepare for it as you want. You manage your own time, we offer consultation, lectures, assignments, tutorials etc. but you can reject all of this and learn the material from some other textbook, and as long as you've mastered the material, you'll get a good grade at the exam. This is how German universities work, for the most part.
fluidcruft•10m ago
The problem is the vicious feedback nowadays of online student evaluations of professors. Professors that are rigorous get complaints and low rankings, kids don't sign up for their sections etc. Kids (parents) pay the administration and the administration wants to keep the customer happy. The only real answer are standardized exams (such as licensure exams) which are beyond parent pocketbook capture.
bonoboTP•2m ago
Or like Europe. You don't pay tuition, but if you slack off, and don't progress properly, you only have a limited number of exam retries and limited number of funded semesters. If you fail, you're out, choose another profession. You're not a customer, you're someone who is trying to prove themselves and get certified by experts on their knowledge. The "customer" of the university is whoever will glance at the degree paper and tries to ascertain the skill/knowledge level of the outgoing student. They have to give a good signal there.
pbasista•17m ago
> I'd not accept to be treated like children.

What is your expectation from such a class? What are you hoping to get out of it?

If you merely want a tutor that will help you out navigate a topic you are interested in, with no strings attached, then sure, yes. No need to take exams.

But if the goal is to get a formally recognized degree in some topic, then you will need to accept that there will be oversight over how you understand that topic. Because the institutions granting those degrees need to sign them off. And if they care about their reputation, they would be interested in signing off only on those students, who actually understand the topic.

So there will need to be exams. In the AI era, it is close to impossible to guarantee that a remote exam will accurately evaluate your understanding of a topic. So the exams would need to be carried out in person.

There is nothing children-specific in using such approach. It is merely one of the few still somewhat objective ways to actually test people's understanding of some topic.

Discordian93•30m ago
I hope at least the homework is good prep for the exams, otherwise if its grade value is marginal there's little point from the PoV of a student that just needs to pass the class to take it seriously
azalemeth•38m ago
This is already the case for Master's degrees and above in Denmark. I've been the opponent examining students. We ask Master's students to give US instruction on a topic (drawn randomly on a card in front of them, from a list they know a few days in advance). They do a chalk and talk on a topic for about fifteen minutes with three to five professors being "dumb students". It works fantastically and at the end it's very apparent to both student and teachers how well a topic is understood. Marks are rarely contested and in my experience most students think the process is fair.

Of course, woe betide those with social phobias....

viccis•29m ago
>Of course, woe betide those with social phobias

I can see this being a problem in the US when it comes to "accommodations" in general. Students with an ADHD diagnosis can claim it causes just about any difficulty and get accommodations for it. The local (top ranked, but everyone's seen all the stories coming out of the Ivies...) college here gives students with ADHD double time on exams and has them take it in a special disabilities proctoring center where it's a struggle to get the staff there to even enforce those time limits. Obviously this also makes it infinitely easier to outright cheat as well.

Not a chance you will get past the "my ADHD makes it hard for me to think about these things verbally" challenge at institutions like this.

bonoboTP•20m ago
European universities also have accommodations and extra time etc. And yes it's an arms race. Though at some point it will simply inflate away the value of the degree, but educators will stand there baffled, not understanding how it could happen.
eutropia•16m ago
as someone with ADHD who always finished exams first or was the designated spokesperson for group presentations...

I have no idea why you'd want to be taking a test a second longer than you already have to.

Either you know the material or you don't, anything taking a lot of time is borderline stuff where you're scrapping for points you might not deserve in the first place lol

behnamoh•30m ago
Denmark is a very small country and what works there doesn’t necessarily work at the scale of the US or China.
toad_tyrrant•24m ago
Why not? This is such a thought terminating statement. No actual reason.
behnamoh•23m ago
Tell me you're not a programmer w/o telling me. What works at scale can be fundamentally different than what works in a small startup (Denmark).
halperter•17m ago
Could you point out a reason why education, which can be standardized at least to a state scale¹, cannot be standardized to the state scale utilizing oral defenses? Also, can be ≠ is. Not everything is a startup lol

¹https://www.doe.mass.edu/frameworks/

toad_tyrrant•12m ago
You said it can be fundamentally different, and of course it can. But “it doesn’t scale” isn’t an argument by itself. In many areas, scale actually creates efficiencies. You’d need to explain what specifically about the larger scale makes the Danish approach unworkable in the U.S
flaunf221•6m ago
throwatdem12311•23m ago
My entire university education was evaluated mostly by proctored closed book exams and oral defenses. AI proof 10 years before AI.
millicentricism•16m ago
Oral Defences have a long established tradition in Denmark, but recently there’s been real cut back on this as a money saving exercise. So both teachers and Students are familiar with this form of examination.

So for a dane this reads like “back to the old way”, rather than anything new or novel.

amelius•14m ago
A nice plot twist would be if those tests were administered by an AI.
lacoolj•10m ago
Why is everyone in this thread comparing this to a University

But yeah, this is a good step.

Homework is also becoming obsolete at this point. If they can't do it with pen and paper in class, there's no reliable way to evaluate work anymore.

solenoid0937•9m ago
This is a nightmare for students that don't think on their feet.
camphy•5m ago
Yeah as much as I like the idea, I know there will be some brilliant and driven students who would have a hard time with this due to temperament. For me, if I’m excited about something, I can talk for hours. Maybe not so for everyone though. Then again, not all brilliant and driven students test well either, so… pick your poison?
otterley•3m ago
Can you explain why? As I understand it, you're supposed to be able to talk about the work you already wrote. Writing involves much more "brain work" than speaking, so if you've truly written the work in question, you should be capable of speaking about it -- unless you have some sort of mental disability, in which case, there are probably alternative avenues.
schroeding•9m ago
I find it quite surprising that Danish high school students (the article isn't about university) apparently did write digital exams with internet access until now, so basically open book.
pdhborges•5m ago
I'm also surprised. In Portugal primary, middle and high school tests and exams are all proctored and the vast majority of them written by hand.
camphy•7m ago
I wish we were doing this in the US even before AI was an issue. I suspect it would reorient students to their work in some pretty cool ways. I mean, it might feel like torture for some and maybe that’s not so much a bad thing. I’m sure I’m not thinking of some downsides to this too, but it seems like such a great counter against “factory” schooling. Of course, this could be a lot more work for faculty and could be hard to keep up with a huge student population. Again, maybe a feature more than a bug.
PEe9bB7D•2m ago
Oral exams were the norm when I studied. Even for technical topics.
fnord77•10m ago
[delayed]
fn-mote•7m ago
Absolutely not saying this is even the most common case but: people “without ADHD” but with a diagnosis can use the extra time effectively.

It is most clear when there is some kind of problem solving involved. An extra 30 min to figure out the trick or plan a detailed approach is a real benefit.

The other case is where there’s some missing knowledge but with a bunch of extra effort you can figure out how to do it. That would be something like re-constructing a self-balancing binary tree from some half-remembered lecture notes.

If in person exams are seemingly impossible in US due to scale, we have to conclude that before internet US had no education?
otterley•2m ago
You're the one who made this assertion; it's your burden to defend it with substance instead of bare conclusions.
bonoboTP•23m ago
The US consists of many small parts too, and it may work in each of those small parts.
pmyteh•20m ago
The important variable is the staff/student ratio, not the size of the country. With few students per class, or many teachers, this scales fine. I'm running similar exams for my (UK) Masters modules, but colleagues are reluctant to do it for the enormous compulsory survey courses as there are several hundred students in them (vs up to about 50 in the MA ones).
emiliobumachar•18m ago
Piling on. Why? Are class sizes that different? US and China have many more professors too, is it not proportional?
impossiblefork•13m ago
Top US universities actually have higher teacher/student ratios than top EU schools, and I wouldn't be surprised if this pattern holds in general, so it would be easier to do in the US than it is here.
Symbiote•5m ago
This is about Danish high school exams.
Symbiote•7m ago
Would it work in Wisconsin, Minnesota, South Carolina, Alabama, Louisiana, Kentucky, Oregon, Oklahoma, Connecticut, Utah, Nevada, Iowa, Puerto Rico, Arkensas, Kansas, Mississippi, New Mexico, Idaho, Nebraska, West Virginia, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, Rhode Island, Delaware, South Dakota, North Dakota, Alaska, DC, Vermont or Wyoming?

They all have a lower population than Denmark.

All but six states (CA, TX, FL, NY, PA, IL) have less than double the population of Denmark.

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