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What's the Date?

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/vzKWsEskYBEWTwpBP/what-s-the-date
1•surprisetalk•56s ago•0 comments

Emacs folds to my liking: kirigami, Tree-sitter, hide-show, Org, XML

https://jointhefreeworld.org/blog/articles/emacs/emacs-folding-kirigami/
1•jjba23•2m ago•0 comments

Ivan the Terrible Wanted to Marry Elizabeth I

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ivan-the-terrible-wanted-to-marry-elizabeth-i-how-did-engl...
1•acossta•2m ago•0 comments

The standardisation process of the proprietary OOXML format

https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2026/10/23/the-history-of-ooxml-format/
2•contact9879•8m ago•0 comments

Zelda on a Conference Badge

https://spf13.com/p/zelda-on-my-conference-badge/
5•spf13•9m ago•0 comments

Hidden easter egg iPod in Apple Music

https://edmn.blog/post/831268768178126848/a-hidden-ipod-in-apple-music
2•abhikul0•9m ago•0 comments

EU capitals water down plans to help companies operate bloc-wide

https://www.ft.com/content/0db7d1cd-be3b-4034-b813-51fc8be88f11
1•alephnerd•12m ago•0 comments

Show HN: ParaGraFX – An iOS app for reading and illustrating ePub books

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/paragrafx-illustrate-books/id6795768929
1•weylspinor•13m ago•0 comments

I was never a fan of the calculator [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_Byrs11ccM
1•gugagore•14m ago•0 comments

Analog Hero

https://www.plough.com/articles/analog-hero
2•onefiftymike•16m ago•0 comments

Colorfigures

https://april-zhu.com/colorfigures
2•the-mitr•18m ago•0 comments

Binary read replicas in PostgreSQL, Part 2

https://thebuild.com/blog/binary-read-replicas-in-postgresql-part-2/
2•securitytxt•19m ago•0 comments

Cutting Snowflake task warehouse wake-ups 92% by changing the schedule [video]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/c5OXgUPL0iU
2•yanivleven•20m ago•0 comments

Diamond Transistor

https://www.df.com/diamond-transistor
2•Gravityloss•20m ago•1 comments

Reinventing the Pencil Sharpener [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Gi5Z51KdUE
2•surprisetalk•20m ago•0 comments

OpenAI trims valuation target to $1.25T after pitching higher price

https://www.ft.com/content/bb564eb1-79d4-4694-aa24-1155202a9abc
2•cik•21m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Kavela – AI Automations that do not fail silently

https://kavela.ai
1•tyhh00•22m ago•0 comments

The lifelong orgasm gap: exploring age's impact on orgasm rates

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11217024/
3•bushwart•23m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Vericto – Check AI agents' SQL before Postgres or MySQL runs it

https://github.com/vericto/vericto-proxy
1•donkan168•24m ago•0 comments

Show HN: SenderWire – I'm building a social platform

https://senderwire.com/
1•Threatthriver•25m ago•0 comments

A Farewell to Hubs

https://arcan-fe.com/2026/10/23/a-farewell-to-hubs/
1•kogasa240p•25m ago•0 comments

America must reverse Trump's moral squalor

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/oct/23/trump-moral-squalor
2•hkhn•25m ago•1 comments

Babashka – Fast native Clojure scripting runtime

https://babashka.org
1•andsoitis•27m ago•0 comments

New previously unseen videos from Tiananmen Square

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/video/2026/08/14/tiananmen-square-massacre-le-monde-revea...
2•throw0101c•27m ago•0 comments

Strategies for Better Claude Cache Usage

https://www.dgrcode.com/blog/claude-cache
1•dgrcode•28m ago•0 comments

The language that says no: from Milner's LCF to agents writing OCaml

https://hypha.pub/the-language-that-says-no
1•zaiev•29m ago•0 comments

I Built a Modern UK Government Service Using COBOL

https://nooshu.com/blog/2026/10/20/i-built-a-modern-uk-government-service-using-cobol/
4•joelanman•29m ago•0 comments

Popular AI Agent Skills Every Developer Should Know

https://jsdev.space/30-agent-skills/
2•javatuts•29m ago•0 comments

UK council accuses Microsoft of "blackmail" as software fees jump 15%

https://www.neowin.net/news/uk-council-accuses-microsoft-of-blackmail-as-software-fees-jump-15/
3•robtherobber•30m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Using prediction margins to decide when to trust your classifier

https://jeffyclassify.com/blog/confidence-routing/
1•nico•30m ago•2 comments
Open in hackernews

Investor-owned utilities charge 23% more for electricity than public providers

https://www.kadoa.com/energy-prices/insights/investor-owned-utilities
209•hubraumhugo•59m ago

Comments

InsidiousWombat•53m ago
Privatization of utilities was always bad idea. We had a lot of it in Poland, mostly driven by "govt owning it is communism, we want to get away from what" and it just made it near universally worse
toomuchtodo•51m ago
Privatization supporters seem to always use waste as a boogeyman, but never the inevitable profitmaxxing for management and shareholders.

Utilities have made $200B+ in profit since 2021, new report says - https://www.utilitydive.com/news/utilities-have-made-200b-in... - March 17th, 2026

That's $200B that could've, in some parts, gone into grid investment and lower electrical costs. Instead, it's the rake for financially engineering being a middleman.

I'm confident this is solved for in the long term with more coop and muni ownership of grids, alongside rapid deployment of solar and batteries so folks can go off grid if they want, as is happening across Pakistan [1] [2]; in the interim, it's annoying though, and for those who cannot afford to be squeezed for these profits, painful.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46070915

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50145248

(non profit, coop, and muni grids can go to the bond market just like an investor owned utility to borrow for grid investment capital, so this is not an excuse for investor owned utilities to exist)

https://www.electric.coop/electric-cooperative-fact-sheet | https://www.electric.coop/wp-content/uploads/2026/09/2026_NC... [pdf version]

testing22321•38m ago
> Privatization supporters seem to always use waste as a boogeyman, but never the inevitable profitmaxxing for management and shareholders

That’s because under capitalism, waste and inefficiency are touted as the ultimate evil. Making profit is the entire purpose of the whole system, so it’s inherently good, and “the right thing”.

Especially in the US, even talking about a reduction in profit is akin to blasphemy, and quickly gets one labeled a quack.

toomuchtodo•37m ago
It's unfortunate, for sure. Luckily, clean tech manufacturing and deployment will eventually outpace the ability to capture energy for returns [1] [2]. China currently has enough solar PV manufacturing capacity for double current global demand, and battery manufacturing capacity is catching up. Prices will keep coming down, and eventually everyone who wants to go off the grid and has space for batteries and solar should be able to.

Just like China is cramming down legacy auto export TAM through their EV exports (BYD has surpassed Ford in international sales as of this year, as is constrained by not having enough marine vessels to export more), solar and batteries will come for investor owned utilities as well.

[1] https://ember-energy.org/data/china-cleantech-exports-data-e...

[2] https://www.iea.org/reports/solar-pv-global-supply-chains/ex...

x187463•44m ago
Right, I'd rather lose 15% of cost to waste/inefficiency than increase cost by 25% to put money in someone's pocket.
CGMthrowaway•31m ago
This guy thinks waste in government is only 15%.

At the low end, the GAO estimates of federal spending, 3-7% is fraud, 3% is improper payments, 7-10%+ is legal but wasteful (e.g. zombie programs) - totaling 13-20%.

In the middle, DOGE (don't smite me, just citing multiple sources) estimated 30-33% was waste.

And at the high end, the American public according to Gallup polling perceives 59% to be waste. https://www.cato.org/blog/americans-say-federal-govt-wastes-...

javcasas•19m ago
NEE profit margin is currently 40.37% https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NEE/nextera-energy...

From that, NEE pays 43.72% in dividends.

So we can say that 17.64% of the amount paid for energy to this company is wasted in dividends ALONE.

Just to put some numbers on the waste on the private side.

lgcmo•44m ago
Natural monopolies are always the first suggestions to keep public owned. And you can't have 2 water suppliers piping into your apartment from the source
CGMthrowaway•36m ago
Even if there is only one set of pipes under the street, the owner of those pipes is constrained from acting in a predatory way if the market is free. They are disciplined by potential competition (if prices too high or lets the water quality drop, it suddenly becomes financially viable for a competitor to dig a rival pipe, or set up localized system, or offering water trucking to your site).

Under a government-granted monopoly, that threat is legally banned (except for maybe water trucking)

bluGill•25m ago
You are correct, but only at unrealistic levels of bad. A potential competitor risks that they lower the prices after the have dug in the pipes and that is enough that the competitor is bankrupt. Even if water quality is the issue, it is easier and cheaper for the incumbent to fix the issue than for you to dig in new pipes. Only in the case where the incumbent has worn out pipes that all need to be replaced at once (unlikely - pipes last a long time and we have had good success relining pipes in many cases: leaving only a minority that need expensive replacement at any one time).

Because the bad has to be unrealistically bad before someone can compete nobody sane will.

CGMthrowaway•18m ago
>only at unrealistic levels of bad

Bad water or water service is not unrealistic.

It took FIVE YEARS for Flint Michigan's water to be re-declared "safe to drink without a filter." The solution involved FEMA and the National Guard.

That can't have been the best way.

appstorelottery•47m ago
I remember when water was privatized in Brisbane, Australia - instantly noticing the jump in my bill. It's clear that privatizing infrastructure like water & electricity doesn't benefit consumers (unless they are somehow investors). I understand that Amsterdam is privatizing water as well. But what can be done about this? Is the only path as consumers is to become ruthless capitalists for our own survival? I wonder where this cycle ends?
usrbinbash•45m ago
It can be stopped by voters making smart decisions during elections.

Whether that happens, is up to the electorate.

yttrium•47m ago
Utilities should at minimum not have a profit motive involved, but the fact that we've been so happy to deliver vast profits to shareholders instead of proofing our grid has been a real tragedy.
AbsurdCensor•37m ago
I guess it depends how you fund the system then. If there are not 'profits', how would additional infrastructure and upkeep be done, without just raising rates higher to pay for it? And who would loan them the money? The government? Oh, so back to taxpayers.
vrganj•35m ago
"Taxpayers" are the public.

The infrastructure is for the public.

Why shouldn't the public get to pay for its own infrastructure without a middleman trying to make a buck?

asanineassasin•29m ago
A middle man that can bail out of consequences for free, while the public can never bail out of obligations and needs. There was something in game theory about such sequential games where one side can only loose if it plays.
idiotsecant•31m ago
Huh? Profits are outside capital improvements. That is the nature of profits. There are arguments for private utilities but this one makes no sense.
nyeah•26m ago
benji-york•47m ago
Alternate headline: "Public utilities subsidize 19% of electricity charges."
x187463•46m ago
Alternate headline: "Profit-seeking organizations seek profit"
darreninthenet•45m ago
Or "investor owned utilities pay out c-level bonuses and dividends equal to 23% of actual costs"
GuB-42•28m ago
Some of it goes to bonuses and dividends, but 23% is a really big number.

I think a big part of that number is risk, dividends are tied to risk too.

The very idea of investing is that you take risks in exchange for profits. That is, if it fails, you lose your capital, if it succeeds, you become richer. A public provider doesn't work the same way, risk is covered by taxpayer money. If it fails, taxpayers foot the bill, if it succeeds, cheaper service.

javcasas•17m ago
NEE profit margin is currently 40.37% https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/NEE/nextera-energy...

From that, NEE pays 43.72% in dividends.

If we multiply these two numbers, we end up at 17.64% in dividends ALONE.

23% is not a really big number by a long shot.

Maxatar
Pragmata•45m ago
I find that every single time these arguments are flawed, and don't account for a whole host of things.

What's the cost of capital on public providers? And on private providers?

What's the energy mix for each of them?

Are both providers profitable? How profitable are each of them?

Are there subsidies involved? Either directly or indirectly via lower than required fee increases due to political pressure.

Frankly it's tiring to always see the same flawed arguments here.

bix6•44m ago
Ok so show us a non-flawed argument because from where I sit I’m getting raked on utilities by a private corp.
AbsurdCensor•37m ago
Turns out energy is getting more expensive, especially when places like the US aren't diversifying their energy and are relying on dead dino juice.
bix6•20m ago
Where’s that guy who always posts about all the solar in Texas when you need him!
Synthetic7346•6m ago
That doesn't explain how Silicon valley powered, owned by the city of Santa Clara, can provide electricity at 18c/kwh while the next city over PG&E charges 48c/kwh

Has Santa Clara diversified their energy and Sunnyvale did not?

bunderbunder•
ianm218•44m ago
This feels like kinda of a useless comparison if we don't know about the tax rates they pay, cost of capital, adjusting for geographic location and local regulations etc. I.e. the largest increase was seen in NY where it is really expensive to do anything and high taxes.
tyromaniac•39m ago
Based on the chart it seems than Maine was by far the highest.
nodrog3000•33m ago
Yup, tax exceptions, cheaper financing or even government financing. It's like letting the referees play the game and then pointing out that they make more free throws.
zoeysmithe•19m ago
Removing the rent-seeking middle-man class generally brings in savings. Same with healthcare.

Also the "refs" should be in charge. That is to say the working class are the refs and they should be able to build infrastructure without the capital owning class inserting itself as a rent-seeker between them and these services.

nodrog3000•2m ago
Your free to go start a worker owned company and compete in the market, good luck.
Hnrobert42•27m ago
Not to mention quality of service. Sure, electricity is electricity. Water is water.

But outages, outage response times, infrastructure, investments, etc. are the other side if the equation.

I have no idea. Maybe investor-owned utilities also provide worse service. However, without accounting for that, the article's claims don't mean much.

petcat•43m ago
Crazy how cheap the electricity is across the board.

EU average is almost double, 40 cents per kwh

mtoner23•40m ago
Thanks natural gas and fracking
petcat•38m ago
Nobody forced Germany to shut down their nuclear plants. The US even warned them not to do it for over a decade. Obama and Merkel had a joint press conference where Merkel assured everyone that Germany had a "10 to 15-year plan". The Biden administration even sanctioned German companies building Nordstream 2 because it was a Russian geopolitical project that would be weaponized against them.

Well we see how that turned out.

vegan_muffin•33m ago
Merkel's lack of brain or personal folder in Moscow archives forced Germany. It often hard to tell with Germans if it's their stupidity due to arrogance (they in many ways never grew out of their pre world war two self image as the most developed mentally, morally and technologically nation in whole Europe) or their corruption.
greyw•12m ago
I wonder how much higher electricity costs would be without natural gas, fracking and nuclear.
skeeter2020•38m ago
bix6•42m ago
One interesting thing I’ve learned is that the utilities will manipulate projects to earn more take. So for example they will add a decommissioning in and then get regulators to approve that and now boom utility co snuck another 1% on the take. The bonuses that the C-suite execs of a public monopoly are getting… unconscionable.
CGMthrowaway•41m ago
What was the hypothesis here, did we think they would be charging less?
solfox•41m ago
This whole "but government is inefficient" argument has never convinced me. Our local electric provider has as bad or worse bureaucracy and ever-increasing rates. Bureaucracy is just a symptom of aging human systems, and it can be fixed. Monopolies that serve the public good should never been profit driven, full stop.
miltonlost•39m ago
"government is inefficient" is a canard spit out by captalists as part of their propaganda program. Same with "you're better off without a union."

Profit going to capitalist owners who don't do any work is an inefficient allocation, IMO, more than an "inefficient" government.

ihumanable•32m ago
Capitalist using money to buy capital and then sell services, brilliant.

Government using money to buy capital and then provide services, deadly socialism.

It's always just been about capitalists wanting less competition. That's why they don't want the market to decide and fight for laws to literally outlaw stuff like municipal broadband. If they are so much more efficient, they should be able to offer an equal or better service for the same or better price.

nxm•26m ago
Government using people's taxes to waste money with 0 accountability
kristopolous•12m ago
They have so much accountability. Everything is in public for inspection, they're subject to elections happening whether they like it or not, they have to follow strict laws and can be sued, there's oversights and review boards...depending on the position, there's television cameras in the "office", broadcasting their work live. You can just walk in and sit down on them. There's far far more accountability...

In practice what the "small government" ideology actually does is get rid of all these accountability mechanisms and put scammers and corrupt people in charge instead.

mentalgear•39m ago
That's why essential utility or otherwise operator that functions essentially for the common good / people must be in public or public-private hands with strong regulation on what is allowed and what isn't.
adelekeabdulgan•38m ago
that means "23%" profit for the people who dropped capital for potential returns.
virtualritz•37m ago
Surprise!!!

That reminds me, my hometown, the city of Hamburg, bought back the public utilities it had privatized in the 90's, following a public referendum, in 2014.

I recall that one reason was prices for electricity and gas going up after the privatization.

Go figure.

metalliqaz•37m ago
Is anyone surprised by the profit motive?
jacquesm•36m ago
Now look at how much they invested in keeping the infrastructure up to date. The ones I know about are very good at the rent seeking portion but when it comes to (preventive) maintenance and capacity planning they are terrible.
chiatruntime•34m ago
In this thread: a bunch of comments that don't understand that if you want more of something (power, food, housing, videos of cats, whatever), by far the best way to get it is to give the people providing the stuff more money.
nodrog3000•9m ago
Thank you! Holy shit. It is very disheartening hearing from what I see as a intelligent community speaking with such ignorance and naivety.
infecto•29m ago
This is a slop website selling a product.

It does not appear to adjust for any of the things that matter. Taxes, cost of capital, generation mix, etc. I think the “insight” is impossible to call an insight with the lack of real modeling.

javcasas•28m ago
Do we also have a study on the quality of service provided by investor-owned vs public providers?

I mean, both sides claim to have the better quality, so let's see who actually has it.

pandinus•28m ago
I live in a counter-example. The only water and electric utility available is city-owned and I pay triple the amount of my sister and her family that lives in another city yet has 4+ private utility companies all competing with each other. And she has a house more than twice the size of mine!

Bring on the competition!

idiotsecant•24m ago
If you say the names of the two cities people can intelligently talk about why this is but it's almost certainly not because it's municipally owned.
oidar•24m ago
Gainesville?
zoeysmithe•22m ago
Generally that's not true. Its weird people feel like they must mention any exception. Its the same as "I know someone who lived to their 90s and smoked everyday, so what's wrong with smoking?" People are aware exceptions exist and it doesn't really add anything to conversation to keep bringing them up.
fl4regun•22m ago
utilities don't generally "compete" with each other like how most business do - becauase that would mean they own redundant infrastructure. They are more like localized monopolies, because there is usually only 1 that operates for each given address.
briffle•
nodrog3000•27m ago
It is naive to think that the government can just be 23% more efficient at getting you electricity. This excludes account for tax exceptions, cheaper financing or even government financing. The government is a monopoly and not allowing competitors in with legislation and using tax dollars to be more "efficient".

The referee should not be able to play the game.

tvink•23m ago
"Efficient"? Nobody believes that the sourcing is more efficient. It's the profit-margin which the government doesn't need which makes the difference, they can be significantly less efficient and still beat "investors" who have shareholders to pay.
nodrog3000•16m ago
I meant "Efficient" as in delivering the power for less cost. Investors don't necessarily care about a profit margin either. Space X is a trillion dollar company and has 0 profit.
zoeysmithe•20m ago
Its naive to think that removing the rent-seeking middle-man class won't lead to savings. Same with private healthcare costs vs more socialized or single-payer systems.
nodrog3000•11m ago
rent seeking middleman? I would say the government has the most special privileges of the competitors in the market no?

We have the most expensive healthcare in the world and some of the worse it is a over regulated industry full of complexity and corruption. Look at industries without government involvement, the less involvement the cheaper and better things get.

healthcare, education, and child care all suck.

tvs, software, and clothes, all cheap and very good.

I love this chart: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

idiotsecant•25m ago
I have worked as an engineer is private and public power utilities and there is not a significant difference in how efficiently things get done. All human orgs are basically the same, when you get down to the people actually doing the work. Private utilities have all the security of a public utility so the 'profit margin' is not really an everyday focus at the worker bees level in the way that it is in actual private industry.

Having seen the sausage being made in both, I would say that private utilities are very little for the additional $$$ they extra t for shareholders. I would just as soon see all power production and transmission nationalized.

ww520•24m ago
Should it be investors owned monopoly have higher charges for electricity?
poody•23m ago
I am also a counter example... My utilities are now half of what they were than when I lived in an area provided by a public utility.. (BPU.. looking at you)
mig39•23m ago
Alberta's electricity system is Canada's example of this. "de-regulation" meant the separation of generation, distribution and retail. Decades after this was supposed to lower the price of electricity, it's done the opposite. Big corporations are now guaranteed a profit at each layer of the system. There is no competition, because why would they compete if they're guaranteed a profit?

So the result is Albertans pay more than most other Canadians for electricity. Even if the actual rate is low (which it isn't), the cost of electricity is usually only 10% of my bill. The rest is "transmission" "distribution" etc. It's insanely expensive compared to next door in British Columbia.

Epa095•7m ago
Wait, they privatized transmission as well?

Electric production and transmission is interesting from an economic perspective, as the physical infrastructure is almost as perfect an example as it's possible to make for something which should be governmental (or under its direct control). You just can't get working competition there. While the power itself is the perfect example of the opposite, where the market should (according to theory at least) be perfect.

newsclues•3m ago
Ontario privatized Hydro as well
finlayson_point•20m ago
A good lunch time (33 mins) watch on how private utilities set their prices and make money + the history of private utilities.

https://youtu.be/3fDGcZ8qpPM

injidup•15m ago
Some research suggests that clustering simply on public vs private is correlation not causation. Many public utilities in the USA are clustered around hydro electric system and dense urban system whilst private utilities pick up the more expensive to run and traditionally less well serviced markets.
elric•15m ago
My electricity is produced by a cooperative. The coop has some 60k participants. And over the year it's managed to build and operate a respectable amount of wind turbines and solar installations, and it's now expanding into district heating and battery storage.

They're producing some 100GWh/year. Which is not half bad, considering they're typically at or below market price and often pay a ~6% dividend.

clarionbell•15m ago
Utilities are one of the cases where market dynamics break down. It's very obvious why, when you realize how difficult it is build even a relatively simple electrical transmission system, or a power plant. The barriers to entry are extremely high.

Furthermore, switching from one provider to another is inherently difficult. There is only one set of pipes leading to your house, how you going to switch to an alternative? Who is going to build the line for the 1 new customer?

And finally, splitting the business across the vertical doesn't work either. Generation of power is tied to grid management, this is tied to transmission maintenance and expansion.

All things considered. Monopoly emerges naturally and rent seeking is pretty much given. There are only two options left. Either the utility is operated by government for common good, or it the monopolist is so heavily regulated and controlled by the government, that it is, in effect, its extension.

Whatarethese•5m ago
That's why most power utilities in the US are considered regulated monopolies. They are owned by shareholders but any changes must be approved by their public utilities commission first.
howunfortunate•13m ago
One of the reasons I left academia: in a different context my colleagues would all know to shout "correlation not causation!", "conditioning on a collider", and "no true control group!"

But if they saw this they'd immediately like, subscribe, and share broadly with positive commentary.

_joel•13m ago
Yes, utility privatisation in the UK has been terrible for the consumer (and environment) too.
xbar•8m ago
It turns out that privatization of public services does not yield the lowest prices for consumer as a result of market forces. Because it does not create services markets, it creates services monopolies.
heyitsmedotjayb•4m ago
Sorry I know its sacrilege to say but i think there's some things the government should simply just own. Water, energy, roads, transit etc.etc.etc... There's no advantages to bringing in private enterprise, at best they merely act as rent seekers, and at worst they strip the infrastructure of all value without any maintenance, getting taxpayers to build it again.
fridder•4m ago
I always like to point out that Nebraska is the only state in the US that has 100% public electricity.
bespokedevelopr•4m ago
Salaries across the board are also a non-insignificant factor. Not just CEO but for brevity,

Seattle City Light CEO $340k 8% bonus

Bonneville Power Administration CEO $245k

Avista Energy CEO $4.77 Million

Puget Sound Energy CEO $1.7 Million up to 9 Million (includes bonus ramp targets)

Now let’s play a game of which are public and which are private.

maerF0x0•3m ago
There's a selection bias in the data. Investors chase the highest profit markets.

Public owned ones by definition are allowed to run in a deficit and have alternate source of "charges" in government subsidies.

newsclues•2m ago
https://www.stepchange.show/grid Good pod on utilities.
dghlsakjg•19m ago
Government granted monopolies are granted under oversight and regulation that would be extreme in any other scenario. Many of them don't even get to set prices. No discipline or market forces needed. The regulators just regulate predatory action.

In your example no one is going to dig a rival pipe because you can't just go around installing pipes under other people's roads and land. The permission to do that is granted to a single entity by the government, further reinforcing the natural monopoly. There is no situation where it is economically feasible to lay more pipe when you have no right to do that.

bluGill•31m ago
You can. It is just that the costs of pipes (wires) are so high that you can't both charge a reasonable price and pay for the pipes. This is why most farms are on private wells - $10k to drill a well is cheaper over 50 years than pipes to each farm. (Many Iowa farms are on public water not a well because wells in those parts tend to not produce enough water for a house's need - and they pay a lot of money per month to pay for those pipes)

This is why we say utilities are a natural monopoly. If you have the pipes/wires in place and even a little paid off you can undercut and competitor until they are bankrupt.

Maintenance and replacement capex are not profit. The expense may be spread over time but it is a real outlay.
everdrive•33m ago
Is there any way out of this "shareholder value" hell? The moment a company goes public they're legally required to make stupid, short-term decisions that are worse for everyone, even the shareholders? (unless those shareholders know _when_ to sell their shares)
Forgeties79•30m ago
> The moment a company goes public they're legally required to make stupid, short-term decisions that are worse for everyone, even the shareholders

The problem is a lot of companies functionally behave that way but there actually isn’t a mandate resembling anything like this, though it’s repeated so often I’m not surprised a lot of people it’s the case. Fiduciary duty doesn’t translate to “rip up and sell everything that isn’t nailed down, burn all your goodwill, and squeeze the shit out of everyone so you can extract every red cent as fast as humanly possible.” You are allowed to plan for the long-term. We just don’t and we create all sorts of incentives (bonus structures for instance) to chase short-term gains.

The investors aren’t going to rise up in all their fury and haul off a CEO to be guillotined because he invested in a project that spans more than a quarter. But unfortunately, plenty of businesses love operating as if that’s the case, because it gives an excuse to make quick dirty money. So they hide behind this erroneous perception of what constitutes “fiduciary duty.“ In the US’s particular form of capitalism it makes a lot of sense, even if it’s terrible for us as a whole.

rob74•22m ago
Well, partly companies behave that way out of anticipatory obedience: if they were to really focus on the long term at the detriment of short-term profits, you'd bet that at least some (maybe influential) shareholders would protest. And partly of course the CEO's compensation depends on the shareholders being happy, not on the long-term viability of the company, so there's that...
everforward•18m ago
Lately I’ve been starting to wonder if the world has changed in a way where long term planning doesn’t work anymore. If information and the reaction to it propagates so quickly that the world changes faster than your plans can adapt.

A long term plan for a company is _at least_ a decade. If your plan ended today, it started in 2016 so it has had to survive COVID, inflationary periods, several trade wars, the rise of AI and now the side effects of the war in Iran.

If your long term plan has to adapt to those in real time, is it even a long term plan? Or is it really a series of long term plans cut so short they became short term plans? I can see companies adapting to just drop the long term premise entirely.

BugsJustFindMe•28m ago
> The moment a company goes public they're legally required to make stupid, short-term decisions that are worse for everyone

FWIW this is a myth.

everdrive•19m ago
Maybe it's overstated? It cannot possibly be a myth.
nyeah•5m ago
[delayed]
BugsJustFindMe•3m ago
No. Public companies are absolutely allowed to engage in long term strategies like "don't burn the future of the brand to temporarily juice near-term profit".
CGMthrowaway•28m ago
"Shareholder value" is just another way of saying return on capital. Do you want to reduce return on capital? (the answer could be yes or no, just advancing the discussion)

Or do you want to redistribute the ownership of capital?

StableAlkyne•19m ago
You're missing the last bit - shareholder value is return on capital for shareholders

The interests of the shareholders diverge quite strongly from the interests of electrical utility customers. It is generally a parasitic relationship where they consume resources that could have been spent improving utility service for the customers, either directly via dividends or indirectly by avaricious behavior on the part of the company in pursuit of their stock price.

everdrive•19m ago
>Or do you want to redistribute the ownership of capital?

I think that's unfair. Do you disagree that companies who go public become myopic and attempt to extract more value until they've hollowed themselves out?

program_whiz•17m ago
this is the key. Of course, investor-owned utilities will try to charge as much as they can to maximize return on capital. The major question is "do we want to maximize return on capital in our utilities?". I would argue the answer is no since providing utilities is a public good and facilitates all other activities in the society, and forms natural monopolies.
nyeah•2m ago
[delayed]
2OEH8eoCRo0•27m ago
This behavior may have started with Dodge v. Ford.

tl;dr Ford wanted to invest profits back into Ford company and Dodge forced them in court to pay dividends instead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.

> Michigan Supreme Court held that Henry Ford had to operate the Ford Motor Company in the interests of its shareholders, rather than for the benefit of his employees or customers.

throw0101c•7m ago
That quoted sentence does not accurately summarize the ruling; see §Significance in the article.

For a fuller treatment see:

* https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/facpub/771/

StableAlkyne•25m ago
There needs to be regulation that discourages the behavior. Some ideas that have been floated include expanding corporate responsibility to include the workers and customers, loosening corporate responsibility laws so that companies don't have strong obligation to its shareholders, ending quarterly earning reports, reviving the ban on stock buybacks, etc.
cartonn•24m ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Stock_Exchange perhaps
WarmWash•22m ago
No, because shareholders are the owners of the company. The legal requirement is more a fail safe than a mandate, because obviously the company wants to act in the best interest of the company. Without the legal mandate these companies would still almost universally act the same.

There are laws that a plumber can't come into your home and smash up your pipes. That law however is not the thing that prevents the plumber from doing that, the plumber naturally works in your common interest. It's the exact same with companies, shareholders elect a board who hires specialists to run the company. Notice the shareholders are at the top.

scroot•19m ago
The fact that companies are organized the way they are today is not some fact of natural law. There are legal structures of ownership that have been put in place by real people, which means there are the means to completely change those ownership structures.

Allowing outside shareholders in combination with private ownership is going to result in the kinds of short term thinking that lead to the "exits" and other profit-maximizing behaviors.

One "way out" is to make laws that give good public incentives / allow people to easily incorporate as organizations where the employees are the sole owners of the entity (co-op).

throw0101c•12m ago
> Is there any way out of this "shareholder value" hell? The moment a company goes public they're legally required to make stupid, short-term decisions that are worse for everyone, even the shareholders?

Shareholder value (primacy) is one interpretation on the purpose of companies (and a relatively recent one):

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine

There are others:

* “Profits are to business as breathing is to life. Breathing is essential to life, but is not the purpose for living. Similarly, profits are essential for the existence of the corporation, but they are not the reason for its existence.” ― Charles A. O'Reilly, Lead and Disrupt: How to Solve the Innovator's Dilemma, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_A._O%27Reilly_III

* “On the face of it, shareholder value is the dumbest idea in the world. Shareholder value is a result, not a strategy...your main constituencies are your employees, your customers and your products.”[72] — https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Welch#Politics

If you back to the mid-1900s US:

> In 1949 General Foods’ president Clarence Francis told Congress that he had a “three-way responsibility to the American consumer, to our associates in this business, and to the 68,000 [stockholders in General Foods]. We . . . would serve (the company’s) interests badly by shifting the fruits of the enterprise too heavily toward any one of those groups.” Two years later, the president of Standard Oil of New Jersey claimed that managers needed “to conduct the affairs of the enterprise in such a way as to maintain an equitable and working balance among the claims of the various directly interested groups—stockholders, employees, customers, and the public at large.” So widespread were such views that, in 1959, one writer in the Harvard Business Review complained that it was no longer “fashionable for the corporation to take gleeful pride in making money.” Instead, he complained, it was typical “for the corporation to show that it is a great innovator; more specifically, a great public benefactor; and, very particularly, that it exists ‘to serve the public’.”

* https://law.temple.edu/10q/purpose-corporation-brief-history...

Or further:

> American corporate law has long drawn a bright line between for-profit and non-profit corporations. In recent years, hybrid or social enterprises have increasingly put this bright-line distinction to the test. This Article asks what we can learn about the purpose of the American business corporation by examining its history and development in the United States in its formative period from roughly 1780-1860. This brief history of corporate purpose suggests that the duty to maximize profits in the for-profit corporation is a relatively recent development. Historically, the American business corporation grew out of an earlier form of corporation that was neither for-profit nor nonprofit in today’s parlance but rather, served a multitude of municipal, religious, charitable, educational, and eventually business purposes in early nineteenth-century New England. The purposes of early American business corporations—rather than maximization of profit to private shareholders— were often overtly public, involving development of local transportation, finance, and other much-needed economic infrastructure. With the rise of factory-based manufacturing, railroads, and other capital-intensive industries in the middle decades of the nineteenth century and the advent of general incorporation statutes, the purpose of the American business corporation shifted fundamentally from public to private. By 1860, the stage was set for the modern firm.

* https://repository.law.umich.edu/mbelr/vol9/iss1/2/

The idea that it is some kind of 'legal requirement' is also a myth:

* https://scholarship.law.cornell.edu/facpub/771/

triceratops•3m ago
> The moment a company goes public they're legally required to make stupid, short-term decisions that are worse for everyone

Nope there's no legal requirement. Management is happy for you to believe there is because they get paid in stock.

The only legal requirement is to make decisions that are in the shareholders' interests, rather than the management's. That means short-term-bad, long-term-good decisions are actually strongly encouraged.

WarmWash•29m ago
If you can share the tickers of these "vast profits to shareholders" utilities, I'd be delighted.

As far as I can tell utility companies are pretty bad at "vast profits to shareholders".

toomuchtodo•25m ago
Utilities have made $200B+ in profit since 2021, new report says - https://www.utilitydive.com/news/utilities-have-made-200b-in... - March 17th, 2026

Paying for Their Profits: How Ratepayers Foot the Bill for Soaring Utility Profits - https://energyandpolicy.org/utility-profit-report/ - March 12th, 2026

- Some utilities consistently operate at significantly higher margins than the average. The top 10 utilities by average margin over 2021–2024 include MidAmerican Energy (27.22%), Florida Power & Light (23.51%), Nantucket Electric (23.24%), Empire District Electric (22.45%), Florida Public Utilities (20.35%), CalPeco (20.28%), Public Service Electric & Gas (19.44%), Duke Energy Carolinas (19.07%), Alabama Power (18.71%), and AEP Texas (18.63%).

WarmWash•14m ago
Tickers please. I can make any flashy story about any industry if I hide a holistic picture of their finances.
toomuchtodo•13m ago
I have literally provided you reports and company names. If you don't like the data, or don't believe the data, reconcile internally. UtilityDive is an industry publication, the financials are public.
lotsofpulp•10m ago
You haven’t provided the relevant metrics to address their WarmWash’s claim. If the utilities are earning outsized profits, then their shareholders would be earning outsized returns.

Comparing long term returns using a website like this would help figure out if the businesses are over performing.

https://dqydj.com/stock-return-calculator/

toomuchtodo•9m ago
Outsized profits does not necessarily mean it flows through to shareholders. That's a management choice. You can be very profitable and not buy back stock or issue dividends.
lotsofpulp•8m ago
If you are insinuating corruption, then no discussion can be had since no numbers can be trusted. If there is no (or sufficiently little) corruption, then shareholder returns would be a reflection of the business’s profitability.
toomuchtodo•6m ago
Call it what you want, these are unnecessary margins that should be crammed down. Regulation, nationalization, I am not picky how. Whether shareholders are seeing outsized returns from the regulatory capture, also not too concerned about.

I am fairly confident the cohort of those who support investor owned utilities are a vocal minority.

lotsofpulp•5m ago
For all the non taxpayer owner utilities I am aware of, the margins and utility prices are completely controlled by government employees. Government employees that are hired by leaders that voters vote for.

>I am fairly confident the cohort of those who support investor owned utilities are a vocal minority.

I will be the first to support only publicly owned utilities. But that has nothing to do with using bad logic and numbers to determine outsized margins.

cj•9m ago
Here you go: XEL, AEP, SO, EIX, CPK, AQN, NGG, NEE
lkey•16m ago
Not only do they have a profit motive, they have a 'Guaranteed Rate of Return'; All this at the citizen's expense.
toomuchtodo•15m ago
Rate of return issue, and how the current bond market activity and yield curve plays into this, is covered in https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/how-the-federal-reserve-s...

As interest rates go up, investor owned utilities increase their rate of return on equity ask, pushing up consumer electricity prices.

tastyfreeze•11m ago
The only real proofing of the grid is distributed generation and neighborhood microgrids. Centralized generation with distant distribution is subject to single point failure with widespread impact.
•
39m ago
It's not even that though. Looks like public utilities are only offered in areas where those utilities are cheap to provide or abundant, and private utilities fill in a gap in harder to reach areas.

The study even points this out as a foot-note but then focuses on rate of price increase versus nominal price. It should not come as a surprise that in areas where utilities are less abundant the price will increase faster than in areas where that same utility is plentiful.

cwal37•34m ago
That’s roughly the opposite of the development of electric utilities in the US. The IOUs owned dense urban areas and refused to electrify further out. It was only the rise of public municipal utilities that got them to go to the states, implement the regulatory compact, be granted rate of return, etc., and then they began building out more.
bluGill•21m ago
That is the historic situation yes. However it doesn't change how things are today. the municipal utilities that remain have lower costs because they don't have the more expensive structures.
27m ago
Some of your questions read to me more like explanatory factors than confounding variables. If cost of capital is lower for public utilities, great, that’s an argument in favor.

I actually think the most interesting factor is listed down in the “about the data” section: “ Most of the gap opened from 2020 to 2023, during the energy price spike: 25% at investor-owned utilities, 11% at public utilities and co-ops. Before and since, both rose at about the same pace.”

So, it might be basically the same story everyone complains about. When there’s a shock, companies tend to quickly hike prices higher than they need to, but after the problem is resolved they’re slow to let prices come down again, if they do at all.

And that detail casts doubt on other explanations because of that were the case we wouldn’t expect to see the divergence be largely confined to the pandemic. There was still a gap before 2020, but it looks like it had been a fairly steady ~1¢/KWh.

tacticalturtle•23m ago
Additionally the regulations between the two are not the same.

For example, in my home state of Massachusetts, for-profit utilities are required participate in the state mandated home efficiency subsidy program, MassSave and add surcharges to the delivery charge, to a state-wide cost of $4.5 billion for 2025 - 2027.

Municipal utilities are exempt.

We’re at the bottom of the list on this post, because it’s looking at recent inflation, but municipal utilities cost much less in Mass. But there are many components to this difference.

I'm in Alberta, Canada where energy is (at least for now!) cheap and plentiful. I'm with a community-owned energy marketer and pay 6 cents per kwh, and just of $3 per GJ. If we paid anywhere near your rates the seperation referendum would have turned out differently!
teekert•33m ago
6 cents per kwh! Can we set up some shipping back and forth for batteries, you charge them, I pay you for it and can have cheaper energy.

This is about what we pay here for delivery back to the grid, yes pay, not earn, they don't want our solar, we have too much (yes we can turn them off, and we do).

dghlsakjg•27m ago
Isn't power production and rates a provincial concern?

Why in the world would the cost of electricity be a factor in wanting to separate federally by anyone with the slightest amount of brain tissue?

alongwayup•8m ago
Alberta is one of the more expensive provinces for electricity, and the average is around 20 cents per kwh as of March 2026 according to federal government:

https://www.cer-rec.gc.ca/en/data-analysis/energy-markets/ma...

Which also has this quote: "In Alberta, where electricity is supplied through a competitive retail market, residential prices tend to be slightly higher and more variable over time compared with most other provinces."

Larrikin•10m ago
It's a lot easier for me to vote for someone with better policies than it is for me to get the CEO of a utility company fired.
nodrog3000•32m ago
The government is a monopoly...
financetechbro•8m ago
Yes but the governments sole purpose isn’t to return infinite profits to shareholders………….
nodrog3000•3m ago
So what is the government's sole purpose?

Also this is not the sole purpose of companies.. SpaceX is a trillion dollar company with 0 profit.

The free market has created everything you use the more we turn the keys over to government's the worse things get.

Companies can't get infinite profits because they will be undercut by other companies COMPETING. The government can get infinite power and control though.. they have no competition.

agumonkey•30m ago
It might come from other factors than aging. The incentives are different and the way the structure evolve too. In public institutions, political tempo affects operations.. every new head of minister will reorganize things for a short while and then issues start showing up, until the next election. It makes people unable to care for efficiency after a while because they know how often friction will grow again.

Maybe small difference in finances too, very often public sector struggles with basic tools. I "feel" that private sector is a little more prone to renew that part (to satisfy the efficiency gods). That said it often backfires because they will also replace perfectly good tools or software to get the latest shiny.

Then there's mass.. but large private corps will have the same issues.

22m ago
How do you have multiple Water companies compete?
roosterIllusi0n•20m ago
Name the city because this makes no sense. You claim private utility companies are actually installing infrastructure? Or are they just resellers that provide nothing?

The only reason cities are having issues with water and electricity is because we cut taxes on the rich. Wages went down and service quality got cut to make the CEOs richer. The US has been coasting on all the infrastructure built in the 50-60s when we had a 90% federal income tax rate and CEOs were capped at making the 2026 equivalent of 5 mil a year. Tax dodging was stopped, everything was funded and life was affordable.

andyjohnson0•19m ago
How does this system of private competing water companies actually work? Do they each have their own exclusive reservoirs and mains transmission system and water pipes right to their customer's houses/premises? And their own exclusive sewerage systems and treatment plants?

Or are they just reselling access to some ahared legacy infrastructure? In which case any "competition" is very likely an illusion.

john_strinlai•17m ago
>4+ private utility companies all competing with each other.

does every house have 4+ water lines, gas lines, etc. running to it?

if not, i'm not sure what you mean.

geertj•6m ago
I imagine this works just like with electricity. You have generation capacity, with commercial entities buying or owning generation capacity and selling the resource to consumers through community owned last mile infrastructure. The sellers need to tally up and reconcile/settle their generated capacity at some frequency (not sure if daily, monthly, yearly).
Synthetic7346•13m ago
Does your sister live in another state?
panzagl•13m ago
And then an icestorm happens and her bill is $2000?
nyeah•16m ago
>"Shareholder value" is just another way of saying return on capital.

In everyday use, "shareholder value" means "stock go up as much as possible, as soon as possible." That is sometimes the best return on capital for exiting shareholders. Generally not for anybody else.