The Lisp in the Cellar: Dependent types that live upstairs [pdf]

https://zenodo.org/records/15424968

88•todsacerdoti•1y ago

Downloadable: https://zenodo.org/records/15424968/files/deputy-els.pdf

Comments

droideqa•1y ago

Sadly "deputy clojure" on Google brings no results...

The only hint is this repo[0] referenced in the paper.

[0]: https://gitlab.com/fredokun/deputy

agumonkey•1y ago

Pretty readable code

reuben364•1y ago

Thinking out aloud here.

One pattern that I have frequently used in EMACS elisp is that redefining a top-level value overwrites that value rather than shadowing it. Basically hot reloading. This doesn't work in a dependently typed context as the type of subsequent definitions can depend on values of earlier definitions.

    def t := string
    def x: t := "asdf"
    redef t := int

redefining t here would cause x to fail to type check. So the only options are to either shadow the variable t, or have redefinitions type-check all terms whose types depend on the value being redefined.

Excluding the type-level debugging they mention, I think a lean style language-server is a better approach. Otherwise you are basically using an append-only ed to edit your environment rather than a vi.

extrabajs•1y ago

I don’t see the connection to dependent types. But anyway, is ‘redef’ part of your language? What type would you give it?

reuben364•1y ago

I just wrote redef to emphasize that I'm not shadowing the original definition.

    def a := 1
    def f x := a * x
    -- at this point f 1 evaluates to 1
    redef a := 2
    -- at this point f 1 evaluates to 2

But with dependent types, types can depend on prior values (in the previous example the type of x depends on the value t in the most direct way possible, as the type of x is t). If you redefine values, the subsequent definitions may not type-check anymore.

extrabajs•1y ago

I see what you mean. But would you not experience the same sort of issue simply from redefining types in the same way? It seems this kind of destructive operation (whether on types or terms) is the issue. As someone who's used to ML, it seems strange to allow this kind of thing (instead of simply shadowing), but maybe it's a Lisp thing?

resize2996•1y ago

> EMACS elisp

I used this to write the front end for an ATM machine.

wk_end•1y ago

I've fantasized about some kind of a dependently-typed Smalltalk-like thing before, and in those fantasies the solution would be that changes would be submitted in the form of transactions - they wouldn't be live until you bundled them all together into one big change that would be fully type-checked, as you describe.

dang•1y ago

Any URL for this that we can open in a browser (as opposed to the dreaded "Content-Disposition: attachment")?

Jtsummers•1y ago

https://zenodo.org/records/15424968 - This at least takes you to a webpage where you can view the paper. If you select to download it, it still downloads of course instead of just opening in the browser.

dang•1y ago

Thanks! I've switched to that above, and put the downloadable link in the top text.

reikonomusha•1y ago

Related context: The 2025 European Lisp Symposium [1] was just wrapped a few hours ago in Zurich. There was content on:

- Static typing a la Haskell with Coalton in Common Lisp

- Dependent typing with Deputy in Clojure (this post)

- The Common Lisp compiler SBCL ported to the Nintendo Switch

- Common Lisp and AI/deep learning

- A special retrospective on Modula and Oberon

- Many lightning talks.

[1] https://european-lisp-symposium.org/2025/index.html

no_wizard•1y ago

I feel like Lisp would be an ideal language for AI development. Its exceedingly good for DSL development and pattern matching. Its already structurally like math notation as well, which I would think would lend itself to thinking how models would consume information and learn

rscho•1y ago

Well... believe it or not, some have thought of using lisp for AI for quite some time. ;-)

froh•1y ago

indeed.

Peter Norvig, 1992

Paradigms of AI Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp

https://g.co/kgs/hck8wsE

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Norvig

it's no coincidence Google is actively maintaining sbcl, either.

Zambyte

fithisux•1y ago

Impressive.

Omarchy is full of security holes

RAG Is Simpler Than You Think

Oldinsurancemaps.net is now a Charter Project

Z.ai confirms Ox Alpha is a new GLM-series model and will release its weights

Value Classes Still Need Compiler Sympathy

Apple introduces M6 and M5 Ultra

Proliferate (YC S25) Is Hiring

Stalking the Wily Hacker: 40 years later – Cliff Stoll [video]

XCancel and Nitter are receiving C&D letters from XCorp

FDA authorizes first wearable device that monitors ketone and blood sugar levels

Beyond Recall and the Illusion of Competence

Queryable Executables

OpenAI Jalapeño: Better than Nvidia Blackwell

New Mac Studio with M5 Max and M5 Ultra

Show HN: Buslens – where can I get to by bus? (UK)

Harvest (IBM 7950): Supercomputer for cryptanalysis at the NSA in the Cold War

Black hole singularity is a surface not a point

Maiao: Gerrit-style code review workflow for GitHub, GitLab, Gitea, others

New Mac mini, featuring M6 and M5 Pro

Debian polls its developers on AI: permit or ban?

When str.lower() is a security vulnerability in Python

Building a backyard office, the build and cost breakdown

Nitter and XCancel receive cease and desist notices

U.S. gov't moves to suppress pushback on data centers

Tooltips need a delay, and then they need to skip it

Bomb fishing is wreaking havoc on Indonesia's coral reefs

Run OpenBSD on DigitalOcean for $4/month

Don't Wordle

How credit card rewards became a $9.2B wealth transfer

Agentic Context Management: Memory and Cost as Architecture Problems