I implemented this in a decentralized context and as a CRDT though, so that the properties hold (commutative, idempotent and associative).
Any given collaborative document will probably only see ~1k clientIds in its lifetime, so the odds of a collision are fairly low, though I'd be more comfortable with a 64-bit ID.
UUIDs/ULIDs/etc are fully distributed, you can have two clients assign an ID without coordinating with ~0% of collision.
In my experience if you are persisting your edits or document state, you have something that creates an ordering anyways. That thing is commonly an OLTP database. OLTPs are optimized for this kind of write-heavy workload and there's a lot of existing work on how to optimize them further.
But now even S3 has PUT-IF, so you could use that to create an ordering. https://docs.aws.amazon.com/AmazonS3/latest/userguide/condit...
As others in the comments argue, this is technically a CRDT (though a fully general one); also, undoing/replaying ops is itself non-trivial to implement. However, I hope this is still simpler than using a traditional CRDT/OT for each data type.
Whether the converged result is at all reasonable is a different question.
Such an awesome approach.
AFAIK, CRDTs don’t solve semantic conflict issues.
The motivating examples (update validation, partial loading, higher-level operations) are interesting, but I don't see a strong case that the reason Yjs etc. lack these features is the underlying CRDT implementation, as opposed to these features being intrinsically difficult to build.
Totally agree. I guess an array of "atomic" objects, where the properties of the objects can't be changed can be done just by replacing the string with your own type. Changes inside of the object is probably trickier, but maybe it's just about efficiently storing/traversing the tree?
I've also always thoguth it should be possible to create something where the consumer of the helper library (per OP terminology) can hook in their own lightweight "semantic model" logic, to prevent/manage invalid states. A todo item can't both have isDone: true and state: inProgress at the same time. Similar to rich text formatting semantics mentioned in the linked article.
For example, if your client-sent request to insert a character fails, do you just retry the request? What if an update arrived in the intervening time? (Edit: they acknowledge this case in the “Client-Side” section, the proposal is to rewind and replay, and a simpler proposal to block until the pending queue is flushed)
From a frontend vantage I feel like there may be a long tail of underspecified UI/UX edge cases, such that CRDT would be simpler overall. And how does the editor feel to use while riding the NYC subway where coverage is spotty?
In practice, it works quite well. Here's more info:
https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/collaborative-editing.html https://marijnhaverbeke.nl/blog/collaborative-editing-cm.htm...
- Label each text character with a globally unique ID (e.g., a UUID), so that we can refer to it in a consistent way across time - instead of using an array index that changes constantly.
- Clients send the server “insert after” operations that reference an existing ID. The server looks up the target ID and inserts the new characters immediately after it.
- Deletion hides a character for display purposes, but it is still kept for "insert after" position purposes.
This might have potential outside text editing. Game world synchronization, maybe.
My best guess is:
- Central-server collaborative editing work focuses on Operational Transformation (OT), likely due to inertia (studied since 1989) and the perception that storing an ID per character is inefficient. In fairness, it is, absent the optimizations introduced by RGASplit and Yjs (~2015).
- For decentralized editing, OT is very complicated, and CRDTs took over as the solution of interest (studied since 2005). Storing every operation permanently in a log - needed to use the linked approach without a server - feels inefficient, as does server reconciliation's undo/re-apply process. So CRDT research has focused on avoiding those inefficiencies, sacrificing simplicity along the way, instead of just embracing them as the easy way out.
To me, the "inefficiencies" seem quite manageable. Storage is cheap, text is small, and you probably want a complete op log anyway for auditing and document histories (cf. git). Server reconciliation's undo/re-apply process can be batched aggressively, e.g., only do it a few times per second; that just makes remote ops take a little longer to show up.
Granted, I have not built a complete app around server reconciliation or the linked approach, so perhaps there is a hidden catch. But I am encouraged by the success of Replicache (https://doc.replicache.dev/concepts/how-it-works), which is where I learned of server reconciliation.
:)
:(
a{uuid=1}
b{uuid=2} insert-after{uuid=1}
c{uuid=3} insert-after{uuid=1}
abc
acb
I mean, a uuid is kind of a poor man's Lamport clock, isn't it?
I get what you mean though, having a central authority greatly relaxes the requirement.
It has all the flavor of CRDT, but adds a leader and a different way for the total ordering (basically using leader's local lamport clock to break tie).
Throw in leader reelection and some ledger syncing and then give everything some other names, I bet you can have "collaborative text editing on one page".
ctrl+x
ctrl+v
Good luck
I think you could batch these things though. You just need a slightly more advanced protocol. If B is the first id, and L is the last, create range(B, L) as R and insert R after L (assuming Ctrl-v a second time).
Compare this to Git workflows. Git already handles merging most changes seamlessly.
hencq•9h ago
The article mentions this:
> This contrasts with text-editing CRDTs, in which IDs are ordered for you by a fancy algorithm. That ordering algorithm is what differs between the numerous text-editing CRDTs, and it’s the complicated part of any CRDT paper; we get to avoid it entirely.
I can buy the idea that many apps have a central server anyway, so you can avoid the "fancy algorithm", though the server reconciliation requires undoing and replaying of local edits, so it's not 100% clear to me if that's much simpler.
[1] https://josephg.com/blog/crdts-go-brrr/
hem777•9h ago
mweidner•8h ago