Sorry, but this is something that any 8th grade primary school student could say. It's the energy conservation principle.
Fortunately it seems to be fine from these perspectives.
Yes.
> Turbines stop the wind
No.
> And apparently it hasn't been taken into account
No.
We can't let wind turbines be like "nuclear"; the dirty word which could've saved our civilization.
It’s only recently that the right wing has become particularly against them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal
It’s unsurprising that nimbys don’t want wind in their back yard despite acknowledging the benefits.
A close second is some dramatic image of a turbine with a gearbox issue that leaked gearbox oil all down the side about how much oil they use, "100 liters per turbine" or some such bullshit that ignores that all of that is fully recycled so you might 'consume' 100 liters in a development in a year but even that's not turned into CO2, it's just leaked into the environment.
* From their own study: the cumulative wake loss impact of four new wind farms in the Irish Sea on Orsted's existing estate is 3.28% [0] * "Wind turbines are found to lose 1.6±0.2% of their output per year." [1]
So, wake losses turn a brand new wind farm into a 2-year-old wind farm. Given the yuuuuuge lifespan of wind farms, it seems kinda trivial.
[0] https://www.rechargenews.com/wind/-catastrophic-wake-losses-...
[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096014811...
I find people who advocate for renewable energy projects are almost always the same people who argue in favor of energy subsidies, too. Perhaps they know something about energy economics, the rest of us don't...
Especially because a more realistic answer is it'll be profitable either way but it'll change whether the return is higher than AAA bonds or not. It's not important. It only affects very marginal projects.
Other things can go right or wrong and change the numbers by a couple percent. That risk is pretty normal. It's not something wild.
And any farm that's already running or even half-built is still going to be finished and maintained and make as much power as it can. Once you already spent a big percent of the budget you're not getting it back, and the ROI on the remaining spending is very high.
Your strong dismissal of OP, and talking about how it "could be the entire profit margin", made it sound a lot more serious than it is, and that's why I disagreed with how you were commenting earlier and posted a counterargument.
Source: worked on CAPEX and yield estimates for major player operating in this sector for a decade.
I do not understand HN's pathological obsession with trying to "gotcha" news media titles for being "clickbait" especially given the "Software (version number)" posts and edgy titles to corporate and personal blogs that are everywhere here.
Moreover, the economics of offshore wind farms is often commingled with state enterprises and various subsidy schemes, which makes them uneconomical even in the best of times, so a 2% capacity reduction coupled with inevitable maintenance and repair costs escalations might make many wind farms uneconomical.
Onshore wind farms are much more economical but the best locations such as Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico already have been developed.
For example, it was gay advocacy/activists not heath sciences professionals who made sure more money was spent on Aids/HIV than all childhood diseases combined.
https://projects.research-and-innovation.ec.europa.eu/en/hor...
TFA discusses this:
> To justify their investment and make a profit, "it's very important for a developer to be able to project that the wind farm will produce a given amount of electricity for 25 or 30 years", the typical lifespan of a wind farm, he says. Even a relatively small, unexpected reduction in that energy output can upset this investment calculation and make the wind farm not financially viable, Finserås says.
It's like setting up a low margin Italian restaurant with none nearby and a few months later another Italian restaurant sets up taking your revenue, tough luck then
I don't understand what you're saying here. The 1.6% compounding was part of the plan from the first rough draft. The 3% is not compounding.
"mysterious" "plaguing" - zero examples...... very mysterious.
The dumb shit the BBC feeds HN Doomers, there is no solution other than big pharma's fluoxetine to the CO2 devil.
Other wind farms will cut into their profits..... always a good idea to get the competition shut down.
E.g. country A is saying that country B is stealing their incoming (upstream) wind, but there's currently a zone of negative pressure (based on the mountains/shore/passing by cyclone/whatever) on the country A's territory which actually allows for the pressure gradient to form through both countries A and B - so there's more energy potential available to tap into on country A's territory?
Areas with more changing wind patterns are likely less desirable.
And if the wind speed of the environment is measurably reduced, wouldn't this affect the environment itself?
What are the negative effects of this on birds, climate, insect population, etc...? Do positive effects significantly outweigh negatives?
Funny. That’s a huge part of the argument made to justify that burning fossil fuels is OK. The problem with letting small problems linger while you scale is that suddenly you have a huge problem you can’t do anything meaningfully about because suddenly it’s a critical part of your economy.
In the US nuclear plants are being phased out and wind/solar projects are replacing them at a ratio of roughly 6:1...with huge savings for grid operators and customers. It's so cheap, even with storage system costs it's still cheaper.
That's where utilities are focused: expanding energy storage and better transmission grid infrastructure. Those, and renewable energy, increase grid reliability.
If you just measure generation costs then you are missing the other key element of a nation grid - it always working - and that characteristic costs as well, not just the electrons provided.
So those improved transmission and storage investments need to be put on the renewables total costs.
Nuclear also has significant decommissioning costs.
However the biggest cost here is probably that required to adapt to the effects of climate change if we don't take steps.
https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/how-mu...
Almost 30% is not nothing.
( ie if you have panels on your roof you typically use it first before sending any excess to grid ) so the effect is largely reduced demand not measured increased production.
Here's a study in how much wind power you can extract before adding more wind turbines doesn't produce more power overall.
At the 100m mark (as opposed to the whole atmosphere up to the jet streams), they calculate 250TW.
Total human electricity generation is well under 5TW (30PWh/yr, out of around 180PWh/yr of total energy), so we could supply all electricity from wind and still leave 98% of the "extractable" global wind potential in the air, which is itself less than all wind energy because of the Betz limit.
Wind farms do have meteorological impacts (e.g. onshore ones slightly dry the soil behind them). It is measurable but insignificant.
https://group.vattenfall.com/press-and-media/newsroom/2022/b...
Which is not to say it's not an important factor, especially as they affect very specific kind of birds disproportionately, but it's not like wind turbines are primarily bird-killing devices, and it's even possible they may be net benefits to birdkind by, say, reducing air pollution.
1) the total height of the atmosphere and
2) other natural obstructions like cliffs and hills
What happens in surface level winds (which is where windmills operate) are actually controlled by the upper level winds. Obstructing surface level winds has local effects (these are also called "terrain effects" since this is usually caused by geography).
Theoretically, if you were to cover the earth in windmills, this would have a serious effect on surface level winds, where they would generally be blocked by a nearby windmill. This would be especially noticeable at sea where you otherwise don't get terrain effects. The vast majority of the atmosphere (everything above a few hundred feet) would continue to be unaffected, though, and would continue to be driven by ground and sea surface temperatures and the Coriolis effect, mostly.
Is global warming expected to increase or decrease wind farm output? Apparently warm air is less dense than colder air, warm, moist air is even less dense, but it would seem like with global warming you have more energy in the system overall.
With wind turbines, I suspect additional wind speed due to additional energy would cancel out the drop in density.
Study: https://www.nature.com/articles/nclimate2120
Article: https://www1.udel.edu/udaily/2014/feb/hurricanes-wind-turbin...
Kill two bird with one stone! Sap hurricane energy and turn it into renewable energy.
The ships will get plenty large if the operation is profitable :-)
And a vehicle charged by a turbine can travel straight towards the wind. There are physical models of such. Quite counter intuitive. I wonder of it is theoretically impossible if the vehicle is in the air?
I do wonder if - in 20 to 50 years - we find out that we somehow screwed up the ecosphere with renewable energy production in a subtle and catastrophic way, much like we did with coal-powered or nuclear plants.
Unless/until the day we paved the entire earth with solar panels and capture the entire atmosphere of their wind, this will continue to be the case. Hopefully, we reach a dyson swarm before that occurs...
In the end, all energy eventually dissipates again. That does not mean that we do not have immediate or near-immediate phenomena to consider (like: global warming).
Let's take solar ... we now have begun to replace agricultural areas with solar farms. For example: How does this affect biodiversity in that area (the things look not green, but gravel under it)? I'm not even saying it is necessarily a bad thing - just a change.
And we should be careful to change running systems, especially considering the stakes. Instead, what I see is proponents of one tech over the other happily shouting down any attempt at critical consideration.
When one wind farm is upwind, its turbines slow the wind for farms behind it, cutting their energy. In a way, it’s “stealing” some of the wind.
The book explains why these kinds of fights over shared resources happen and why we need better rules for such situations.
Other examples: upstream hydropower reducing downstream potential energy; a tree in your yard casting shadows on your neighbor’s property, thereby “stealing” sunlight and potential solar power.
Allegedly this was a problem in the Cotswolds, UK, when the woollen industry was where the big money was. I only know this from school history classes, not from Google, hence my use of the word 'allegedly'. Allegedly, mills placed upstream slowed the flow to existing mills downstream, leading to disputes.
In time, mills were built with big chimneys, meaning coal. But why would you go for expensive coal that had to be transported when you had 'free' power from the river? It has been hypothesised that drought may have played a part in this, not the over use of waterwheels.
Mine, by Kim Faulk, 2022 Synopsis: “ Family is everything... I always knew my father was a cold, heartless bastard.
But the moment he took Elle Castlemaine and her pathetic daughter into our home, barely a month after our mom died, he unleashed something savage inside me.”
I’m guessing it’s not that one!
Until I look out and found that it's a romance book... No thanks!
And if anyone is still looking for the real book, it's this one, by James Salzman & Michael Heller https://app.thestorygraph.com/books/fd8d48d8-f8e0-4693-a064-...
Mine!: How the Hidden Rules of Ownership Control Our Lives by Heller and Salzman. The authors are professors of (real estate and environmental, resp.) law.
Next: solar farms who can ‘steal’ each others' sun.
Stealing others’ wind (or making it “dirty”) is a well-known and well-used tactic in sailboat racing. It is very effective.
One explanation of tactics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh9Hz0TDFxE
glkindlmann•5d ago
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riparian_water_rights
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_rights
[3] https://eelp.law.harvard.edu/wind-wakes-and-the-right-to-win...
JumpCrisscross•5d ago
tantalor•1d ago
"you can't steal something that can't be owned - and nobody owns the wind"
timewizard•1d ago
Now my straw reaches acroooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake. I drink your milkshake!
dp-hackernews•1d ago
tantalor•1d ago
ta12653421•1d ago
curiouscavalier•1d ago