While it’s true that FHE schemes continue to get faster, they don’t really have hope of being comparable to plaintext speeds as long as they rely on bootstrapping. For deep, fundamental reasons, bootstrapping isn’t likely to ever be less than ~1000x overhead.
When folks realized they couldn’t speed up bootstrapping much more, they started talking about hardware acceleration, but it’s a tough sell at time when every last drop of compute is going into LLMs. What $/token cost increase would folks pay for computation under FHE? Unless it’s >1000x, it’s really pretty grim.
For anything like private LLM inference, confidential computing approaches are really the only feasible option. I don’t like trusting hardware, but it’s the best we’ve got!
For the equivalent of $500 in credit you could self host the entire thing!
However if you actually follow the 3-2-1 rule with your backups, then you need to include a piece of real estate in your calculation as well, which ain’t cheap.
All my ripped media could be ripped again: I only actually have a couple of Tb of un-lose-able data.
Having privacy is a reasonable goal, but VPNs and SSL/TLS provide enough for most, and at some point your also just making yourself a target for someone with the power to undo your privacy and watch you more closely- why else would you go through the trouble unless you were to be hiding something? It’s the same story with Tor, VPN services, etc.- those can be compromised at will. Not to say you shouldn’t use them if you need to have some level of security functionally, but no one with adequate experience believes in absolute security.
the parent post is right, confidential compute is really what we've got.
Something that normally takes 30 seconds now takes over 8 hours.
1) if you are a registered broker dealer you will just incur a massive amount of additional regulatory burden if you want to host this stuff in any sort of "random server"
2) Whoever you are, you need the pipe from your server to the exchange to be trustworthy, so no-one can MITM your connection and front-run your (client's) orders.
3) This is an industry where when people host servers in something like an exchange data center it's reasonably common to put them in a locked cage to ensure physical security. No-one is going to host on a server that could be physically compromised. Remember that big money is at stake and data center staff typically aren't well paid (compared to someone working for an IB or hedge fund), so social engineering would be very effective if someone wanted to compromise your servers.
4)Even if you are able to overcome #1 and are very confident about #2 and #3, even for slow market participants you need to have predictable latency in your execution or you will be eaten for breakfast by the fast players[1]. You won't want to be on a random server controlled by anyone else in case they suddenly do something that affects your latency.
[1] For example, we used to have quite slow execution ability compared with HFTs and people who were co-located at exchanges, so we used to introduce delays when we routed orders to multiple exchanges so the orders would arrive at their destinations at precisely the same time. Even though our execution latency was high, this meant no-one who was colocated at the exchange could see the order at one exchange and arb us at another exchange.
What I don't think they necessarily appreciate is how expensive that would be, and consequently how few people would sign up.
I'm not even assuming that the compute cost would be higher than currently. Let's leave aside the expected multiples in compute cost - although they won't help.
Assume, for example, a privacy-first Google replacement. What does that cost? (Google revenue is a good place to start that Calc.) Even if it was say $100 a year (hint; it's not) how many users would sign up for that? Some sure, but a long long way away from a noticeable percentage.
Once we start adding zeros to that number (to cover the additional compute cost) it gets even lower.
While imperfect, things like Tor provide most of the benefit, and cost nothing. As an alternative it's an option.
I'm not saying that HE is useless. I'm saying it'll need to be paid for, and the numbers that will pay to play will be tiny.
The key question I think is how much computing speed will improve in the future. If we assume FHE will take 1000x more time, but hardware also becomes 1000x faster, then the FHE performance will be similar to today's plaintext speed.
Predicting the future is impossible, but as software improves and hardware becoming faster and cheaper every year, and as FHE provides a unique value of privacy, it's plausible that at some point it can become the default (if not 10 years, maybe in 50 years).
Today's hardware is many orders of magnitudes faster compared to 50 years ago.
There are of course other issues too. Like ciphertext size being much larger than plaintext, and requirement of encrypting whole models or indexes per client on the server side.
FHE is not practical for most things yet, but its venn diagram of feasible applications will only grow. And I believe there will be a time in the future that its venn diagram covers search engines and LLMs.
Yeah but this also means you can do 1000x more things on plaintext.
This is fascinating. Could someone ELI5 how computation can work using encrypted data?
And does "computation" apply to ordinary internet transactions like when using a REST API, for example?
other ones I imagine behave kinda like translating, stretching, or skewing a polynomial or a donut/torus, such that the point/intercepts are still solveable, still unknown to an observer, and actually represent the correct mathematical value of the operation.
just means you treat the []byte value with special rules
[1] https://www.jeremykun.com/2024/05/04/fhe-overview/ - discussed previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40262626
If we could find some kind of function “e” that preserves the underlying structure even when the data is encrypted you have the outline of a homomorphic system. E.g. if the following happens:
e(2,k)*e(m,k) = e(2m,k)
Here we multiplied our message with 2 even in its encrypted form. The important thing is that every computation must produce something that looks random, but once decrypted it should have preserved the actual computation that happened.
It’s been a while since I did crypto, so google might be your friend here; but there are situations when e.g RSA preserves multiplication, making it partially homomorphic.
The point of FHE is it can operate on gibberish-looking ciphertext, and when this ciphertext decrypted afterwards, the result is correct.
Indeed, there are those working on faster FHE sorting: https://eprint.iacr.org/2021/551.pdf
Imagine your device sending Google an encrypted query and getting back the exact results it wanted — without you having any way of knowing what that query was or what result they returned. The technique to do that is called Fully Homomorphic Encryption (FHE).
The articles is about getting an input encrypted with key k, processing it without decrypting it, and sending back an output that is encrypted with key k, too. Now it looks to me that the whole input must be encrypted with key k. But in the search example, the inputs include a query (which could be encrypted with key k) and a multi-terabyte database of pre-digested information that's Google's whole selling point, and there's no way this database could be encrypted with key k.
In other words this technique can be used when you have the complete control of all the inputs, and are renting the compute power from a remote host.
Not saying it's not interesting, but the reference to Google can be misunderstood.
That’s not the understanding I got from Apple’s CallerID example[0][1]. They don’t seem to be making an encrypted copy of their entire database for each user.
[0]: https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/homomorphic-encry...
[1]: https://machinelearning.apple.com/research/wally-search
I've been building and promoting digital signatures for years. Its bad for people and market-dynamics to have Hacker News or Facebook be the grand arbiter of everyone's identity in a community.
Yet here we are because its just that much simpler to build and use it this way, which gets them more users and money which snowballs until alternatives dont matter.
In the same vein, the idea that FHE is a missing piece many people want is wrong. Everything is still almost all run on trust, and that works well enough that very few use cases want the complexity cost - regardless of operation overhead - to consider FHE.
FHE + AI might be the killer combination, the latter sharing the complexity burden.
> An old car needs to go up and down a hill. In the first mile–the ascent–the car can only average 15 miles per hour (mph). The car then goes 1 mile down the hill. How fast must the car go down the hill in order to average 30 mph for the entire 2 mile trip?
Past improvement is no indicator of future possibility, given that each improvement was not re-application of the same solution as before. These are algorithms, not simple physical processes shrinking.
I assume that doesn't happen? Can someone ELI5 please?
How do you train a model when the input has no apparent correlation to the output ?
If your encryption scheme satisfies this, there are no patterns for the LLM to learn: if you only know the ciphertext but not the key, every continuation of the plaintext should be equally likely, so trying to learn the encryption scheme from examples is effectively trying to predict the next lottery numbers.
This is why FHE for ML schemes [1] don't try to make ML models work directly on encrypted data, but rather try to package ML models so they can run inside an FHE context.
[1] It's not for language models, but I like Microsoft's CryptoNets - https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... - as a more straightforward example of how FHE for ML looks in practice
read the article again
Since lots of functions behave in this way in relation to sums and products, you "just" need to find ones that are hard to reverse so they can be used for encryption as well.
Unfortunately this turns out to not work so simply. In reality, they needed to find different functions FHESum and FHEMultiply, that are actually much harder to compute (1000x more CPU than the equivalent "plaintext" function is a low estimate of the overhead) but that guarantee the above.
anyway, making the computer do the calculation is one thing, getting it to spew the correct data is another.... But still, the article (which seems great at the moment) brushes it of a bit too quickly.
dcow•4h ago