I've been using some variant of the Kinesis Advantage line for over 10 years - currently the Advantage360, their split board. I used an ergodox for a few years before that.
The Advantages are all 3d curved layouts with thumb clusters like the Maltron, and I haven't had RSI issues since making the move. The 360pro runs ZMK for firmware customization, and the stands do support different tenting angles.
Worth a try if you're looking for a more direct alternative to the Maltron.
I like everything about it except for the thumb cluster. it is, amazingly, worse than the Ergodox EZ.
I wish the author would spring for a wireless Dygma Defy and tell us how that thumb cluster compares :)
The 360 comes close but it’s a miss for me. I really don’t like the omission of the function keys, and the switches feel muddied compared to the ones on the previous advantage keyboards.
If they fixed those two things and added another 1-2 keys to the thumb cluster, I think that would be the ultimate keyboard for me.
The thumb clusters are definitely a pain, I find myself only really using the 3 closest buttons one each side. Even then, the closest button on the upper row requires a stretch that gets uncomfortable after a while. It hasn't been bad enough for me to consider trying other keyboards though--the prices are too high for me to feel comfortable buying something I might not like.
To anyone that switches to a split keyboard, I strongly recommend also getting a trackball mouse (I use a Ploopy Adept). It lets you center the keyboard in front of you without needing to stretch too far while manipulating the mouse.
I do bouldering, and I have broken two of my fingers over the years in cycling accidents, and both are ultimately inconsequential compared using/abusing a bad keyboard. If you are thinking about trying a new keyboard design, and you use a keyboard for at least a few hours a day, it will be money well spent.
Edit: looks like the keyboardio someone else mentioned gets it right.
What about Maltron in Colemack?
Or the Dactyl Manuform?
https://nathanfriend.com/2023/06/26/i-built-a-weird-keyboard...
Or Keyzen:
https://store.azeron.eu/azeron-keypads#keypad=keyzen
I just want an MC Escher keyboard, so I can type upside down and sideways.
Excellent approach, though rarely used in layout design, at most you'd get frequency distribution of typed text instead of pressed keys
> Both hands need access to each of these modifiers, because using a modifier and typing a key with the same hand often involves painful contortions.
While home row mods is a better solution, another alternative is "sticky" mods that would remove the need to hold, so you can use the same hand without pain
> On a normal keyboard, if I press ‘f’ then ‘g’ I can roll from one to the other and press ‘g’ while ‘f’ still hasn’t been released – ‘fg’ will be sent to the computer. With home row mods, this ends up sending ‘G’.
This might be config issue. With a roll you release F before G (your fingers roll off the first key before rolling off the second), so this should type regular FG in properly configured home row mods instead of just capitalized G.
> The practical effect of this is that ‘f’ isn’t sent to the computer as soon as you press down, but only when you release the key.
Are there implementations that send F immediately, but send backspace to delete F if you hold?
The ones I listed are well open sourced and modularized, you can print out parts as you go - trackpad, trackball, tilting pad, joystick whatever you want.
I couldn’t make the corne variants work because tucking my thumbs hurt. The ergodox is too big. Even a keyboard like the ZSA Voyager just doesn’t fit me right. However, the glove80, running a 40 key layout that I’ve come up with after doing a fair amount of heat mapping my own keystrokes, gets rid of all my hand and wrist discomfort. My only complaint is what a hassle it is to haul around.
The only “wisdom” (hard earned) I would pass along is:
- Make a heat map of your keyboard over a few days to see what keys you need.
- tweak your layout to make it easy and comfortable to get to the keys and key combos you use.
- remember you do NOT have to use every key!
One does indeed not need to use all the keys. Lesson learned!
I'm curious but not particularly enthusiastic about keywells because I find the biggest improvement with a split keyboard is the tenting. My personal setup uses heavy tenting+tilting (basically half of a square base pyramid split on the square's diagonal) with the keyboard in my lap and my forearms resting on the chair arms locks me into a neutral wrist position without any active muscle effort. Keeping a good wrist position through the entire day instead of just the first half makes a noticeable difference.
Finally, I use the neutral thumb keys for shift on hold but I don't use any other thumb holds because I believe it has stress injury risks[1]. They're used for important but relatively infrequent keys: backspace, enter, tab, esc.
[1] https://getreuer.info/posts/keyboards/thumb-ergo/index.html
How did you find an ideal tent + tilt setup? Whenever I've tried I've wound up with sore wrists or hands, so just gave up. It seems like the glove80 w/out wrist rests does "good enough" so I stopped trying to optimize, even though the temptation remains.
I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions. I just don't have the time for it and fear how far down the rabbit hole I'd wind up if I did.
I had the idea that the best position for long sessions would be the most relaxed one so I put my hands in my lap on top of a lapboard (old Wacom tablet) and tried to put they keyboard halves under my fingers. I cut up a shipping box for the tenting stand. It took me eight iterations with three fresh starts but doesn't take that long with cardboard and tape. Stick the keyboard onto the stand with double sided tape, fill the cardboard pyramid with change for weight, and it's been like that for eight months. I'll come up with a more permanent solution at some point but it's working well so I'm not in a hurry.
The positioning was mostly about getting the wrists straight with the keyboard halves in-plane. The in-plane part was, naturally, the tricky part and that was mostly about getting the pinky corners set and then small adjustments until the index corners felt good. I have it set so perfectly aligned requires me to slightly lift my arms off the armrests which prevents sore spots on the forearms. At rest with the sides of my palms on the lapboard my fingers are off to the side of the keys but I can still type.
> I've seen some members of the erg keyboard community design and print their own pcbs based on their hand dimensions
I follow the reddit community and see those as well. Someone started up a business selling fitted keywell boards (Cyboard) but the general consensus seems to be that the glove80 is good enough. I have some patches on my local ZMK (mostly changing chord detection) but no particular desire to do the hardware side. If I had a 3d printer I might consider it since apparently hand wiring isn't that hard if you have a print to hold the switches.
If I'm reading your reply further down the page right then you only use two of the 6 keys. Is that right? For me, I think I'd want to use at least 4 or 5 keys in my thumb cluster before I could call it comfortable.
Another factor is skeletal symmetry. Reaching for a mouse changes the natural balance of posture. I'm not a doctor, but it cannot be healthy over decades. That's why after many years I'm now using the pointing device with my non-dominant hand most of the time. My dominant hand only takes the mouse when I have to do precise or graphic work. This approach makes my back, neck and shoulders feel better.
And the last major gripe I have with most of ergonomic keyboards is how they misunderstand tactile feedback. They try to make all keys feel the same. Glove80 takes it to the limit with its uniform and flat key shapes and identical switches. I don't think this is helpful. Notice how F and J on most keyboards have bumps. Every key should have a bump, a unique shape, a unique surface texture. I want to subconsciously know I hit the right key.
I use the tablet configured in the "Relative" mode, where it behaves identically to a mouse. The tablet has about the same size or somewhat smaller than a traditional mouse pad.
In comparison with a mouse, holding and moving the very light stylus requires much less force than with a mouse, the hand position is much more comfortable and the speed and accuracy of the movements are much higher.
Because the stylus is extremely light, I can keep it between the fingers while touch-typing with all fingers on the keyboard. Therefore when I alternate between typing and pointing the transitions are faster and more comfortable than with a mouse, because I do not have to grasp the mouse every time.
When I type longer texts, I drop the stylus on the tablet. I configure the stylus so that touching the tablet causes left mouse click and the 2 buttons that are on the stylus cause respectively right mouse click and double left click.
Regarding your complaint about key shapes, many decades ago I had used a high-quality keyboard, with Hall sensors for the keys, and where each key had a different shape and height.
Unfortunately, after assembling my first IBM PC/AT compatible computer, I had to abandon that keyboard, because it was incompatible (it came from some kind of DEC-compatible video terminal). Otherwise, I have no doubt that this keyboard would have still worked finely even today, as it did not have any parts sensitive to wear, unlike modern keyboards.
They made the Form keyboard but not sure the they haven't done the same for the ergo design.
It's a no brainer.
I have an old Maltron that I got cheap (many years ago and it was old then!) and it's remarkable how unlike a modern consumer product it was. Thin, vacuum formed plastic, point-to-point soldered wire keyboard matrix. But that classic shape, keys with full sized key caps and travel, etc are all present.
The Kinesis I also have is much more mainstream - it feels more solid and looks more like a consumer product. But I understand it's just not quite as good, ergonomically.
nprateem•6mo ago
Apart from that it's a great keyboard.
1-more•6mo ago
The Glove uses low profile switches though, so I have no idea if different height caps are even possible with those.
[0] https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard
inhumantsar•6mo ago
8f2ab37a-ed6c•6mo ago
alanbernstein•6mo ago
bostonvaulter2•6mo ago