I've had to "experience" those once for our testdrive of said Ioniq 5. Well, never again. "Dubious" is the most friendly word i have for the one that is next to us.
And: the car itself is priced at least 10-15k€ too high for what it is.
Compared to the Tesla, the Hyundai has an actual interior with physical controls, an 800V charging system, panels that actually line up, and a far bigger dealer/support network. These are things that cost money and even without those things Tesla isn't making a ton of money.
Of course I'm in California so EVs are more expensive to run than ICE cars so it's all moot.
> Of course I'm in California so EVs are more expensive to run than ICE cars so it's all moot.
We also have a governor fueled by Getty (oil) money. The people he's appointed to oversee the electric utilities have rubber stamped rate hikes to the point where even heat pumps barely make financial sense because natural gas is so much cheaper (well under $2.50/therm).
https://www.pge.com/content/dam/pge/docs/account/rate-plans/...
You do a hardware upgrade on the car to patch the vulnerability.
> "piece of cloth used to mend another material," late 14th century.
> Electronics sense of "to connect temporarily" is attested from 1923 on the notion of tying together various pieces of apparatus to form a circuit.
But yeah, the term patch just seems weird in this article. Why not just "upgrade" or "fix"?
The term patch-cable seems to be way younger.
patchboard
: a switchboard in which circuits are interconnected by patch cords
First Known Use
1934, in the meaning defined above
But yeah, “patch” usually implies software vs. hardware.
Either way, agree with other comments that Hyundai should just eat the costs if it prevents theft due to an exploit.
Having said that, given what the car costs, the fee doesn’t seem completely unreasonable.
I have a Kia EV6, and just saying that if the same “patch” is offered for it, I won’t think twice about paying $65 for it.
I’d also not be super happy they didn’t cover it, but I saw a comment about never buying a Hyundai because of this, and not sure I’d be that upset about it.
There’s a line, for sure, but $65 wouldn’t be it, for me.
Maybe you live in a country where car thieves hack into cars left and right. Maybe you live in a country where thieves just tow your car in the middle of the day and don't care about your locks at all. Do you expect car maker to ship you free fixes against every scenario? Security is a spectrum. Make your police better if you don't like it.
/controversial opinion
Following the same logic: old phones, even iphones can be hacked. Should manufacturers replace the hardware?
The warranty is not that long, and I think the parent comment is talking about 6+ year old iphones that are definitely out of warranty.
If those should get replaced, surely that means each person buys one iPhone in their life, and then just gets free replacements forever, leading to the initial cost of the phone having to go up a lot to account for that.
There is no such thing as secure lock. Any lock could be open without original key. The difference is in the amount of effort.
Still baffles me that KIA sold cars which can be driven away using screwdriver and USB cable.
These in fact do exist, but they have properties unsuitable for many use cases, such as taking 8-24 hours to open if you lose the key/combination or a mechanical fault occurs, and being part of a system so heavy the floor beneath them have to be constructed to support the weight. (A friend of mine was a master locksmith for many years and worked on such locks, mostly for government contracts.)
In case of a lockout often the easiest way to open them is a brute force attack using a device called an autodialer.
It's intel's bug, they promised a certain processor speed, shouldn't it be their responsibility to replace it since their own security oversight resulted in the hardware not working as advertised?
Did you expect the same from intel/amd when those bugs came out? Is it different from this situation?
How have they advertised that? Was it clock frequency? Their mitigations mean it still runs at that clock frequency.
New CPUs are largely immune to the specific attacks that were published before they were designed. But we aren't gonna get a fast CPU without sidechannels and IMO it's not possible in theory to build a branch predictor that never makes potentially exploitable mispredictions.
In a sense this doesn't change your point but I wanted to take the opportunity to point this out. "This CPU is vulnerable to attack X" just means researchers have found an exploit in practice, which we already knew in theory was there.
This wasn't the expectation before Spectre/Meltdown but now we live in a world where you need to assume a degradation in your CPU's effective performance as we learn about its vulnerabilities and need to apply software workarounds.
I am building "one mitigation to rule them all" called Address Space Isolation but this doesn't fundamentally remove that fact, it just means that when we learn about a CPU's vulns we don't have to build a new mitigation we just have to change the settings on the existing one (and it should be more efficient than the bespoke one would be).
I believe the Mill hardware design would be immune by design because the hardware is in-order (relying on other trickery for its performance). Of course, it's still vaporware, but the noises made have been fairly competent.
So in some ways, yes, but in other ways, what if you didn't need a branch predictor in the CPU.
https://millcomputing.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Sp...
Well yes you can dodge this problem by not having a branch predictor but note the way I formulated my claim ;)
If you are employed in a position where there is a defect in the product then you are already being paid. Imagine going to a restaurant and you get an uncooked frozen steak, and when you tell the waiter they tell you that since the cook will need to spend more time on it you now have to pay extra.
If it turned out the door locks on the car were defective you'd expect them to be replaced under warranty. If the warranty had expired the situation would, admittedly, be a bit murkier - but you could still make a case that since the locks had always been faulty they'd be the manufacturer's responsibility.
Someone I used to work with had a car a few years ago on which the battery would mysteriously drain for no obvious reason. It turned out to be a defect in the infotainment system's firmware - and he was furious that he was expected to pay for the firmware update to fix it. (The car was long out of warranty, though.)
Go there and request a rare steak or idk steak with kimchi, let is know how it goes!
This is a Korean car and probably secure enough in korea where you usually don't lock your bike and/or house. If it not secure if you park it on the street in SF/London/Magadan/Capetown/Kabul are you sure they owe you a free "fix" for everything that may occur
Also, they need to secure it the international markets they're selling it in.
For internet security, you get everyone hack you from north koreans and beyond.
For house and car security it depends on what crime is in your location and how police work. Some places have almost zero so people literally don't care to lock doors. Some places need locks to stop opportunists. Some places you need electric fences and 24/7 security with guns and keep valuables in safes to hopefully slow down their removal until security comes. It's not comparable to cyber
If these people had bought a Korean market car in Korea and personally shipped it to the UK, yours would be a more compelling argument.
As it is, it makes no sense. If you choose to participate in a foreign market you do not get to abdicate responsibility for problems because they don’t exist in your home market.
McDonald’s, famously, adapts their menu to the location. Here’s a bulgogi burger they only sell in Korea: https://www.mcdonalds.co.kr/eng/menu/detail.do
Here’s another menu item exclusive to Korea https://www.mcdonalds.co.kr/eng/menu/detail.do
It is one of many local menu items available exclusively in Korea. What is absurd is that you make false assertions that can be checked faster than you can write your comment.
Do you genuinely think that Hyundai does not adapt the car to the market (did they accidentally put the steering wheel on the right, and just happen to send those cars to the UK?)? Every car company HAS to do this, if only because different markets have contradictory rules. E.g. Lights that are legal in North America do not meet the standards of other countries. The car HAS to be adapted to the market.
Weren't they a slightly subversive tech site a decade or so ago?
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/flipperzero-darkweb-firmware-bypasse...
The flipper firmware is only about six months old, and it is still not as convenient and distributed.
The actual firmware exploit is the same idea.
The UK has lots of new cars (plenty of cheap financing around for lease, PCP and HP deals), and there is a low-level epidemic of thefts of vehicles that end up in shipping containers and heading out of the country within hours. [0]
Car insurance is also so high in the UK at background levels that if you end up owning a highly desirable and very easy to steal car (the Range Rover a few years ago, for example), the costs being added to price in the risk of your car ending up in a container heading to the Middle East don't seem - as a percentage - particularly high.
The fact UK has great shipping throughput to the Middle East, Africa, and so on, is both a boon economically, but also it makes great cover for all sorts of shenanigans.
[0] https://www.containerlift.co.uk/cracking-the-code-uk-police-...
From there, making customer pay to fix bad security doesn't sound like a significant step.
One thing that stands out to me is the front wheels protrude beyond the body. I don't recall ever seeing that on a consumer road vehicle before, at least one designed after the 1930s.
Plugging a car into a phone should work like that: just a dumb display with maybe a keyboard or touchscreen input device.
See also ‘smart’ tvs vs digital signage displays aka dumb tvs.
I'm just tired of hearing about Slate. A relatively small amount of people want a product and they use a company that hasn't shipped as validation of their imaginary market size (this company exists, so tons of people want it!)
I hope they're successful.
Similar to how lots of people online (Reddit, HN, etc.) made a lot of noise about wanting a smaller smart phone. Apple released the iphone 12 mini, it didn't do well commercially, and was fairly quickly discontinued.
Most non-tech-bubble-normies cope with crappy in-car systems probably because conceptualising something different is far away from their area of interest and expertise; indeed, many folks actively want/prioritise superficially-impressive tech in their new car. (Lots of people --probably the vast majority-- don't focus on pure usability, privacy, or cybersecurity, when making such decisions.)
I'd expect Slate to appeal to people who need a pickup for work (because it's the most similar EV to an old low-spec Toyota/Ford/etc pickup) and for whom range is not an issue, some who want an EV but are price sensitive, and a handful of others who like the underlying concept.
Stockholms Länstrafik didn't figure this out so all our timetable displays are pitch black when viewed with polarized sunglasses.
I've noticed that all but iPhones exhibit this behavior at some angle too and they're apparently using "circular polarization" (expensive) which is another one of these "we do it better" things nobody knows about from Apple (or displays in general)
(https://claude.ai/share/e462247c-0ecd-4a07-8ec1-36a4f3c86597)
Though I'm pretty sure you can't even legally make such a car anymore, at least in Europe, where certain "smart" features are required for new cars. Perhaps a manufacturer of such an EV could put all of that into one box which the user can simply pull out and discard.
Anyway, that is not what majority want to buy. Even more, a car is not what majority want to buy in the USA. SUV/trucks are desirable.
Recently, evolving security threats, including the use of unauthorised electronic devices to bypass vehicle locking systems have become more prevalent in the UK. This is an industry-wide issue and Hyundai is providing appropriate responses in line with industry practices.
As part of the Company’s commitment to supporting our customers, we are able to offer a subsidised software and hardware upgrade for a customer contribution of £49.
But looks from their point of view. It's the most stolen car in the UK. The brand doesn't seem to be suffering much. Having terrible security just helps sales!
Until it’s banned by regulators or made uninsurable…
Plus the UK is about to reintroduce financial incentives for private EV purchase, they want to push sales, not clamp down on crap products.
It's particularly bad because customers see it as a defect. No one wants to pay full price for defective equipment. The only thing that would make it worse is if this "hack" were reproducible on the flipper zero and they get themselves into another Kia Boys situation.
Note that Kia offered a maximum of $6,125/$3,375 for totaled/damaged vehicles.
The previous formula:
"You take the population of vehicles in the field (A) and multiple it by the probable rate of failure (B), then multiply the result by the average cost of an out-of-court settlement (C). A times B times C equals X. This is what it will cost if we don't initiate a recall. If X is greater than the cost of a recall, we recall the cars and no one gets hurt. If X is less than the cost of a recall, then we don't recall."
At this rate, I'll be back to Tesla for any future EV purchase. (Noting that Tesla second-hand prices in Europe seem to have taken a dive over the past while, presumably partly thanks to Elon's shenanighans?)
I'm somewhat wary of any of them, but it seems like it's a feature of a lot of new cars, and I can't tell what is "safe" to buy. It was a simple signal amplification thing wasn't it?
Does anyone know if BYD cars suffer from it for example?
I'm mentioning this specifically because the CAN bus is involved, which is mandatory to be safety conform and has to be ASIL-C/D conform. If you cannot guarantee that, you will lose the license.
Without conformance to UN Regulation 155/156, the car manufacturer might lose its license for the underlying car platform (not only the downstreamed models), meaning refunding/damages need to be paid for all buyers of cars of that platform.
So chances are this can be fought in court, and Hyundai probably has to offer free replacement of that defective part.
neilv•6mo ago
https://www.theverge.com/news/757205/hyundai-ioniq-5-securit...
themafia•6mo ago
> in 2023 over the “Kia Boyz” attacks that allowed thieves to bypass a vehicle’s security system using a USB cable.
The USB cable happened to have the right size to engage the starter mechanism. Any physical object with similar dimensions could have been used. It really undercuts how absolutely terrible the Kia security design was around that component.
Terr_•6mo ago
More work for the thieves, but hardly a fix to inspire confidence.
TylerE•6mo ago
anonym29•6mo ago
Terr_•6mo ago
charcircuit•6mo ago
Terr_•6mo ago
The first is used in daily commutes, the second is used once as a battering-ram/getaway car before being abandoned in a ditch.
themafia•6mo ago
They can then brag about the number of thefts they've engaged in by the number of Kia vehicles listed in their phones bluetooth connection list.
The surprise is that the police don't seem to understand how to incorporate these facts into their tactics.
Terr_•6mo ago
TylerE•6mo ago