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Sütterlin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%BCtterlin
46•anonu•3d ago

Comments

wjnc•3h ago
Question for the Deutsch HN-ers: Is this readable to your modern eye? Letter for letter I can see the relation to the handwriting I was taught in Dutch in the 80s, but as a text it looks like sanskrit to me. Obviously learnable, like learning greek or other foreign ciphers. But I would not imagine a neighbouring language written down less than a century ago to seem so foreign.
mr_mitm•3h ago
No. I was taught Sütterlin in elementary school, but I couldn't even begin to read the sample on Wikipedia.
Longhanks•2h ago
I grew up in Germany and was taught handwriting there, and I get the same feeling as in seeing the relationship, but being entirely unable to read it.

This is what is taught in german schools: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schreibschrift#/media/Datei:De...

obfuscator•1h ago
Oh wow, I had the exact image you linked photocopied and glued to the first page of my German folder. Has been ages since I saw this, thanks!
kleiba•55m ago
Even the lower-case x like that?
cenamus•36m ago
Probably not, at least in my case it is just some lower left to top right line, then the crossing line starting from the top left
hmry•2h ago
AFAIK this hasn't been taught since the 40s. Now (since the late 60s) there are 3 different cursive scripts available, and it's up to the school to decide which one to teach (if any).

When I went to school, the one I learned was Schulausgangsschrift https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Schulausgangsschrift...

To me, the Sütterlin sample on Wikipedia is completely incomprehensible.

obfuscator•1h ago
This can't be fully correct, though, at least for my (as-remote-as-it-gets) area. My father was born in '52 and had to learn it in school here. He still writes the small 'z' in Sütterlin, and it looks really nice.
hmry•57m ago
Hmm, I believe you. The article also says "Sütterlin continued to be taught in some German schools until the 1970s but no longer as the primary script.[citation needed]"
nmeofthestate•4m ago
Looks similar to the cursive z I learned - I guess in the late 70's/early 80's - in Scotland. It's still in my signature, although that's a right scrawl.
pbmonster•2h ago
I still learned "standard Latin cursive" in school, which was more or less the direct successor to Sütterlin.

They are remarkably different. Especially the lower-case letters, where around half are completely unrecognizable. Cursive Latin is arguably closer to cursive Greek than to Sütterlin.

Some lower-case letters straight changed meaning during the Sütterlin->Latin transition. d->v, e->n, ect.

yorwba•2h ago
If you carefully look at each word instead of mistaking the capital B for an L, failing to recognize the first word, and giving up in frustration, you can pick out common words like die or der and then slowly expand from there. It helps that one of the longest words in the text is Sütterlinschrift itself, which gives you quite a few letters. Once you have most of the alphabet deciphered, your internal language model takes over and it's smooth sailing from there. It definitely takes quite a bit of getting used to, but less so than e.g. Yiddish written in Hebrew script.
cybrox•2h ago
I second this. As someone who still learned "Schreibschrift" in school, I have a tiny bit of a head start but a lot of letters changed or at least changed in style drastically but I can reverse-engineer as you described.
fzeindl•2h ago
I can read about 50% of the words.
ginko•2h ago
It's easier than Kurrent[0], but not by a lot.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurrent

adornKey•2h ago
Sütterlin is very ancient. I knew someone how used it for handwriting, but there are only a few people that really learned to read and write it.

In Algebraic Number Theory it's quite common to use some kind of Fraktur-Alphabet for Symbols (Rings, Ideals, Groups,...). It's natural there to use some kind of Sütterlin for hand-writing and exercises. But I think to become really fluent, you have to dive very deep into Algebra... There are some letters you'll use a lot like p(rime), M(odule), G(roup), R(ing), A(lternating Group), S(ymmetric Group). I don't think I've read/written all available letters yet...

h05sz487b•1h ago
Not at all, no. And I still learned cursive at least.
deng•1h ago
> Question for the Deutsch HN-ers: Is this readable to your modern eye?

Generally, no. It is too confusing, since not only are many letters simply obtuse, some are mixed up with modern cursive writing. For instance, capital 'B' is pretty much exactly capital 'L', small 'h' is exactly 'f', small 'o' is 'v', and so on.

Fraktur for instance is much, much easier to read, since there is basically just one mix-up ('s'/'f'), it just takes some getting used to.

ghosty141•1h ago
I'm in my late 20s, 0 chance of reading anything.
4bpp•1h ago
A friend got into it around 8th year of school and strung me along so I can still read it pretty comfortably, but without that, the answer would be no - some of the most common letters, like 'e', are just too different.

I get the sense, though, that especially in Bavaria it held on for a while even after WWII - very rarely you still see storefront signs written in it for flair, and somewhat more often you encounter subtle "Sütterlinisms" like having a lower half-arc above the cursive letter 'u' in the handwriting of older people and signage meant to evoke it.

crussmann•1h ago
I was never officially taught Sütterlin, but through family and other circumstances I can read it fairly well after a bit of a "warm-up" period.

What's interesting is that it's pretty much impossible for me to read if used for a non-German language. Sütterlin for English text? My brain cannot parse this at all - the script automatically flips my brain to German!

4bpp•1h ago
That makes a lot of sense, given that in the Kurrent era it was actually considered proper to use a "Romance" (and hence "modern-looking") script even for non-Germanic loanwords in German text, mirroring the Fraktur/Antiqua distinction in print typesetting!

In a way, this could also be compared to the present-day use of katakana for loanwords and hiragana for native text in Japanese (which ironically only crystallised as a universal convention after WWII).

jFriedensreich•43m ago
I learned this still in the 90s, readable without issues and i can still write it if i concentrate. But i just realised that i haven't even used a pen in years and just the act to write on paper feels truly weird now.
boxed•3h ago
The lowercase e and n look extremely similar!
Boogie_Man•2h ago
A few years back I decided to finally learn correct cursive so I was able to sign my name to documents correctly. When I discovered there were multiple types of cursive, I landed on Kurrent (the predecessor of Sütterlin) and now frequently sign my name with it to the general dissatisfaction of everyone in my life.

I'm sure there's some sort of point I'm making about the absurdity of a signature being used to verify anything (when the nice old lady volunteering at the polling station makes me sign again because it doesn't quite look like my signature even though I have photo ID and have arrived in person at the correct polling location I want to do a backflip, but I of course don't because I want to be nice to the old lady), but mostly it just makes me smile.

vintermann•2h ago
Danish-style kurrent is the final boss of my genealogy research. There's a nice image on the Wikipedia page. Look at the a, e, o, r, s, v, æ and ø in lower case, and imagine that written by a Danish priest with early parkinson's and/or being drunk.
actionfromafar•2h ago
There's some poetic beauty in the difficulties of understanding the nuances of spoken Danish be matched by the same in reading. :)
pavel_lishin•6m ago
Why does the c have a breve above it!?
pavel_lishin•7m ago
> I landed on Kurrent

This is madness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurrent#/media/File:Deutsche_K...

> now frequently sign my name with it to the general dissatisfaction of everyone in my life.

When I was a kid, I thought there was a special way to sign things, given how everyone's signatures looked like elaborate Lissajous curves. For awhile, once I had to start signing things, I took care to make sure my name was legible and consistent.

Then I realized I could just make a little wavy squiggle, and nobody cared. Eventually I realized that most signatures, I didn't even have to do a wavy squiggle - the credit card machines at stores would be perfectly happy to accept a straight line, or just a first initial, or a drawing of a kitty-cat.

throw0101a•2h ago
See also perhaps yesterday's "The End of Handwriting":

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44939165

voidUpdate•2h ago
This page probably needs to be updated now that wikipedia has a dark mode. I can't see the example letterforms!
Timwi•2h ago
OK time to brag big time. I was not taught Sütterlin in school but I learned it anyway while in 5th grade simply because it was fun. I arranged with my teachers to be allowed to do homework in it and most of them agreed, seeing it as (at least somewhat) educational.

Despite, I have not retained fluency in it. By 8th grade I'd stopped using it and then fell out of practice.

i_don_t_know•1h ago
Sütterlin was used to denote vectors and matrices in my linear algebra class at university in Germany in the 1990. We got a cheat sheet with all letters in the first lecture (also included all Greek letters).

I still have the sheet. And it’s so weird to see vectors and matrices denoted with Latin letters. I still use Sütterlin.

WalterBright•57m ago
I write all my secret letters in Sütterlin because nobody can read it, including myself.