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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/poll-dramatic-shift-americans-no-longer-see-four-year-college-degrees-rcna243672
53•jnord•1h ago

Comments

carlosjobim•1h ago
College degrees now have negative value for hiring. A company wanting to hire a reliable and competent worker will avoid college graduates.
ungreased0675•51m ago
Seems like you’re hurting some feelings.

I’m a manager in a unique field where people come in with many educational levels. There is little correlation between educational credentials and job performance. A variety of previous jobs and having lived a few different places seems to correlate more with performance.

carlosjobim•45m ago
My comment is generalizing, as is the thread subject. It has been a downwards moving trend, and for young workers I will say that a college degree is now a negative factor. But that doesn't define the candidate.

Also: Any positive or negative effect of a college degree is either amplified or moderated by candidates self-selecting. A candidate who greatly values their college degree will seek out employers who do the same, and vice-versa.

throwaway21321•1h ago
1 in 8 incoming freshmen at UCSD (a leading institution in the states) cant solve "x + 5 = 3 + 7"... Why would I pay 30k a year or whatever it is to get a degree from somewhere like that?
Beijinger•1h ago
My roommate can solve this. And he just turned 6. I gave him today some equations with two unknowns....
Beijinger•46m ago
Why the Downvote? It is true.
SanjayMehta•25m ago
It's due to your username; they think you're a troll.
Beijinger•8m ago
Well. I love Beijing. But I am not Chinese.
11101010001100•10m ago
It may come across as bragging to some. You can decide if that is fair.
Beijinger•6m ago
Well, if someone feels extremely inferior, true.

Many mothers claim their child is gifted. In this case, I believe it. It is not my son, unfortunately. I am just in a roommate situation.

I give him math challenges sometimes. Today I started introducing equations with 2 unknowns.

AnimalMuppet•1h ago
You'd go to UCSD if you could solve that equation, and want to learn to do more. (If you can't solve the equation, UCSD is a very expensive way to learn how.)

I think the more relevant question is, why would you go to grade school and high school at institutions that produce graduates like that?

Cheer2171•59m ago
> why would you go to grade school and high school at institutions that produce graduates like that?

Do you not know how U.S. K-12 public schools are funded by local property taxes, which means the quality of a child's education is a direct causal relationship of the wealth of their neighborhood?

Why don't these children just grow up in richer neighborhoods?

okigan•51m ago
Most are overpaying in taxes for what they are getting.

Not to mention single/families without kids and seniors that still pay for school districts.

lunar-whitey•40m ago
Fear not - the American school system was built on and holds fast to the supposition that the affluent should be able to avoid any unwanted exposure to the problems of those less fortunate than themselves.
roenxi•46m ago
The quality of an education isn't proportional to the amount of money spent; learning is remarkably cheap if a school wants to focus on outcomes. There's a bit of give in where the teacher sits on the bumpkin-genius scale (although even then, the range of salaries isn't that wide in the big picture).

Although forcing the funding to go through a collective rather than letting people choose a school and pay on in individual basis would probably deliver a pretty serious blow to the quality.

lunar-whitey•31m ago
The school system is downstream broader social issues here. It can be shockingly expensive to deal with the various behavioral problems that disproportionately impact students from lower income communities. Students from stable homes with available and invested parents practically teach themselves.
Aeolun•22m ago
All those downstream effects from a functional social security service.
deaddodo•38m ago
Do you not know that the US is a Federal system and there are (at minimum) 50 different ways that schools are funded?

California's schools (for instance) aren't funded by local taxes, they're funded by the state and allocated funding based on a formula[1] of performance, need, population, etc. They can be augmented by local taxes, but in practice that's rare as the wealthy just avoid the system altogether; instead, opting for private institutions.

That's at least 12% of the population that is not funded in the manner you outline.

1 - https://www.cde.ca.gov/fg/aa/lc/

lunar-whitey•15m ago
Equity remains a valid criticism of LCFF in California specifically.

For one unremarkable observation in this area, see the following think tank report:

> States often commission cost studies to establish the level of funding required to help students meet state standards. LPI analyzed five of the more recent of these studies [...] All of these studies recommended additional weighted funding to support English learners and students considered "at-risk," which was most often defined by a measure of family income and also included other factors [...] The recommended weights for English learners in these studies ranged from 15% to 40% of the base grant level in each state. The recommended weights for at-risk students ranged from 30% to 81%. Compared to the recommended funding in these states, the LCFF’s supplemental grant weight of 20% is at the lower end of the recommended range of weights for English learners and below the range of weights for at-risk students.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED670929.pdf

xboxnolifes•1h ago
The more important question is do they learn to solve it, fail out, or just get pushed through?

One of those is a bad outcome, but the other 2 are fine.

galleywest200•1h ago
At my liberal arts and sciences college about 10 years ago my entry level biology teacher straight up said to the class that if people are having trouble with some of this math on the board to go home and learn algebra tonight.
kaashif•48m ago
If standards aren't lowered and they're just failed out, that's fine eventually, but I would prefer it to be fine from day 1.
cvoss•52m ago
What does your (dubious) example have to do with the quality of post-secondary education? If it has any relevance, it's for the quality of secondary education.
delichon•41m ago
I wish it were dubious. I recently worked with 11th grade Algebra 2 students in New Mexico and found exactly that, and worse. Most couldn't begin to do algebra because they couldn't do simple addition and subtraction. Out of a class of 24 there were two who were arguably ready for it. But everyone is moved forward anyway. I understand your skepticism because I was shocked by it. The teachers said it all went down the drain during Covid and has not recovered.

It must severely limit what they can learn in college.

TehShrike•37m ago
If the college would accept someone like that, they probably don't aim to take their students to a very high level.
zetanor•36m ago
If a university's administration overlooks a complete failure of the student selection process, it's easy to imagine that it may well overlook a complete failure of the professor selection process. The price of admission is also way too steep to wind up being the peer of mental 8th graders.
ponector•17m ago
Is it a failure of the process? The selection process is to pick people who willing to pay, not who can solve equations.
zetanor•3m ago
It's a failure for higher education, yes.
lunar-whitey•51m ago
Illiterate incoming freshman are the product of the public middle and high school systems, not the university system.

For reference:

> Beginning in Fall 2022, the number of students placed into Math 2 began to grow rapidly. Math 2 was first created in 2016, and it was originally designed to be a remedial math course serving a very small number of first-year students (less than 100 students a year or around 1% of the incoming class) who were not prepared to start in our standard precalculus courses [...] In Fall 2024, the numbers of students placing into Math 2 and 3B surged further, with over 900 students in the combined Math 2 and 3B population, representing an alarming 12.5% of the incoming first-year class (compared to under 1% of the first-year students testing into these courses prior to 2021).

https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio...

These are students that even middling American public schools would have failed to pass from high school in decades past, or would have later failed to meet standardized test requirements prior to the COVID-19 pandemic.

rahimnathwani•30m ago
This is incorrect. It's 1 in ~50. Still bad!

8.5% of incoming freshmen place in Math 2. 25% of a class of Math 2 students could answer 7+2=_+6

8.5% x 25% is about 2%, so 1 in 50.

jaccola•1h ago
I feel the same fallacies happen with money and degrees:

- People with more money live better lives, so let's just print/hand out money and everyone will live a better life!

- People with college degrees live better lives, so let's just push more people through college and everyone will live better lives!

In both cases, of course, completely missing the underlying reasons money/college degrees provide(d) better lives.

It's hard to believe that any single person in government truly thinks printing money will increase resources or that more easily handing out college degrees will automatically make everyone better off. So I don't fully understand how this happens, perhaps pandering to the electorate.

echelon_musk•1h ago
I like to call this degree inflation.
JKCalhoun•33m ago
Consider the contraposition.

• Poor people live shorter, unhealthier lives.

• Without a college degree, your employment options are diminished.

It's fine to trash "handing out money" or "pushing more people through college" but then what is left is: there's nothing we can do for poor people.

Aeolun•28m ago
Make money not a consideration in applying for college? Not by handing out whatever the universities are asking for of course, but by giving them a fixed $X per student.
AnimalMuppet•3m ago
The difference is that printing money creates more money, but doesn't create any more stuff. College degrees (theoretically) create more educated people. If you just "hand out" degrees, that doesn't happen, but if you actually teach people, then it does.
wat10000•1h ago
The pendulum swings. College was only for the elite. Then it slowly expanded until it got to the point of, “everyone should go to college, doesn’t matter what you study.” Now it’s swinging back. Hopefully we manage to get to a reasonable place and not go all the way back to college only being for elites.
tgma•1h ago
Obviously if you want to learn, there has never been as many resources as today for free with YouTube and other stuff. College remains only relevant for the piece of paper and networking and the four-year party experience.
crims0n•1h ago
My kids will still go to a four-year university, but for the education and experience, not for any vocational aspirations. I have no delusions about the marketability of an undergraduate degree.

A happy side effect of that university degree was a more rounded education, which now many young adults will be missing out on. The downstream effects could be catastrophic.

yoyohello13•53m ago
> A happy side effect of that university degree was a more rounded education, which now many young adults will be missing out on.

Absolutely! So many people bemoan taking general Ed classes, but knowing the basics about economics, literature, science, art, math, history is valuable if you want to think critically about the world.

roamerz•26m ago
>> but knowing the basics about economics, literature, science, art, math, history is valuable if you want to think critically about the world.

Sure if that is relevant to what your goals in life are. I chose to get an education that was tightly coupled with the outcome I wanted.

yieldcrv•57m ago
Universities survived half a millenium being networking grounds for the upper class, and they will survive another millenium being networking grounds for the upper class

The last century will be a mere footnote in a case study of folly, where 100% of the university's problems came from dealing with the underclass at all with a side helping of federal funny money. It will be comedic relief amongst starry eyed business majors, waiting to satisfy a condition of their trust fund

The employment sector's decision to require degrees is mere happenstance and something that sector will need to reconcile on its own.

thomassmith65•32m ago
Someone should turn that comment into a Twilight Zone episode...

We wake up tomorrow to a world where universities never existed.

No cultivation of Copernicus, Newton, Einstein...

So we're stuck mostly with 1000 year old technology.

paulorlando•57m ago
Better than asking "is college worth the cost," and getting into ROI calculations per major is asking "could we provide a similar (or better) educational and social experience at a fraction of the cost"? To that the answer is yes.
rahimnathwani•34m ago
Many (most?) people go to college primarily for the piece of paper, not for the educational and social experience.
Aeolun•31m ago
You can provide the piece of paper at a fraction of the cost too. Nearly all of Europe does, I believe.
crossbody•21m ago
Did Europe find a cheat code that gets free $$$ for education?

Nothing is free - once you graduate you are hit with 50% tax that gets back all you "free" tuition costs many, many times over.

Not saying education should not be subsidized via taxes (I think it's good overall), but it's not free at all - the price is just hidden and spread out over many years (similar to student loans but less visible).

ahartmetz•11m ago
Was it much more subsidized in the US when it was much cheaper, though?
crossbody•1m ago
I'd reward the question: "was college paid for via higher income taxes for graduates (and others) or via a more direct approach of student loan taking?". I believe the latter but I don't see the fundamental difference. It's the same student loan but hidden from sight, as it's packaged as higher tax %
b3ing•53m ago
I guess so mostly foreign students and the wealthier folks can get them? Doesn’t seem like a win, but with AI taking jobs, who knows
HardwareLust•53m ago
What's the point? You're either going to be replaced by AI or a robot (or both) anyway.
mikert89•51m ago
Employers just hire experienced h1bs instead, they won’t leave after being trained, no reason to hire an American
bequanna•30m ago
The h1b program can essentially be eliminated tomorrow. Trump could theoretically make h1b visas non-transferable, charge a high annual renewal, etc.
chillycharlie•22m ago
Trump could cancel H1B but most likely he won't. If for no other reason than as a favour to his billionaire friends. They are more important than the popular idea of America first, American jobs etc. here Trump literally says we need H1B because we need talent, and USA doesn't have the talent. Not a good look for a supposedly America first president.. https://youtu.be/U2XUNKcKtx0?si=GOFyMGxqUIbyGD6T
chank•25m ago
And Americans leave because employers will just replace them with offshoring and h1bs to save money. It's a self perpetuating cycle. Loyalty goes both ways. Employees finally realized that they should be treating employers like employers have always treated employees. That's capitalism.
Newlaptop•5m ago
There are ~700k h1bs out of ~157 million American jobs. So about 99.6% of jobs in America are held by Americans and 0.4% by h1bs.
randcraw•49m ago
As the article says, this change in opinion has been very big and very recent. Don't expect universities to sit still and do nothing.

I see several possible reactions. One is to do what Georgia Tech and U Texas are doing -- to offer online degrees for MUCH reduced cost, like $10k. Will such 30 credit MS degree programs (that don't require BS first) replace 120 credit BS degrees? That makes a lot of sense to me.

The popularity of residential degree programs may be ending, due to insanely high cost and the need to retrain often as AI automation changes the employment picture rapidly and unpredictably.

abeppu•12m ago
> Don't expect universities to sit still and do nothing.

> The popularity of residential degree programs may be ending, due to insanely high cost.

I think the problem is that universities _have_ been changing in the direction of _delivering less_ at the same time that they cost more. The article cites public schools doubling tuition in inflation-adjusted terms since 1995, but simultaneously:

- student-faulty ratios have gotten worse

- schools use under-paid adjuncts for a larger share of classes

- good schools often trade on the research record of faculty, but the success of those prominent faculty often mean they can get course buyouts / releases, so they're not teaching anyway

- much has been published about administrative bloat in universities but for example see 2010 vs 2021 numbers here https://www.usnews.com/education/articles/one-culprit-in-ris...

Rather than trying to make new online offerings, I think schools need to lean out their staff, and cut back on programs that don't have to do with instruction. Even better would be if federal funding eligibility was tied to schools demonstrating that at least X% of their budget goes to instruction, where that X should ratchet up over time.

crossbody•25m ago
Most of you here assume the "Human Capital" model (i.e. you pay to acquire skills), but that entirely misses the actual point of a college degree! 2001 Nobel Prize went for demonstrating that college is basically a quarter million dollar IQ and Marshmallow Test. It's a filtering mechanism that allows employers to tell who is smart and conscientious enough to be productive at work.

Offering education to more and more people via reduced cost mass online courses, lowering entry requirements or similar approaches will only erode the signalling value of a degree further.

chillycharlie•14m ago
Those degrees also don't lead to the jobs they want. My former boss would hire people with degrees in, to do basic admin tasks. I quit because a they hired a guy to be my manager, with a lawyer degree and paid him $20k more than me, to do the same job. But he would spend the whole day on his phone. I'm in a new job, hiring people, and I'm not looking at degrees when it's for a dispatch role.
crossbody•5m ago
That's the sad outcome of everyone getting _some_ degree in recent years. Something like 50 years ago 10% had college degree, now it's close to 50%. Meanwhile population IQ score stayed rather stable while willingness to work hard declined. So of course the quality of employees with degrees has dropped and hence the degree is no longer a good signal to employers
linguae•10m ago
I’d feel better about not recommending college for everybody if our high schools were more rigorous. I personally feel that the Advanced Placement and International Baccalaureate curricula should be the minimum for high schoolers to graduate, since an education at this level provides well-rounded knowledge that gives students the skills necessary to survive in a 21st-century developed economy.

However, many high school students don’t have the opportunity to take such classes, and there are also many high school students who struggled in elementary and middle school.

I was a high school student in California during the first half of the 2000s. California used to have the High School Exit Exam, which was mandatory to graduate from high school. The test focused on English grammar, reading comprehension, and algebra. I took the exam in 10th grade, and I felt it was easy. So easy, in fact, that I believed eighth graders shouldn’t have much difficulty passing the exam.

However, there were many students who weren’t able to pass the exam, even with multiple attempts. Eventually the state got rid of the test. I don’t know if educational outcomes improved in the immediate aftermath, but UC San Diego’s study on remedial math shows that our high schools are inadequate at preparing students not only for college, but for life in our modern economy.

Of course, to fix high schools, we also need to fix our elementary and middle schools. This goes beyond the classroom; this also involves addressing the cost-of-living crisis. It’s hard for kids to thrive in school when they have parents who need to work heroic hours to make ends meet, and this doesn’t include the kids who have to deal with homelessness and other unstable living situations.

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