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Tell HN: Uceprotect is extorting website owners

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Tell HN: Uceprotect is extorting website owners

63•goldenmember•3h ago
I recently discovered by accident that our website was being blocked by Orange's security filters.

After a quick check, I found that our IP address is listed on UCEPROTECT Level 3. The listing is based on the reputation of the entire ASN 14061 (DigitalOcean, US) [1]. In other words, even if your IP did nothing wrong, it will still be listed because of its ASN.

If your site is innocent and listed only because it's hosted on DigitalOcean, UCEPROTECT offers to whitelist it for about $30/month or $108/year [2].

I checked the ASNs of several other popular hosting providers, and they're all listed too. So if your site is hosted on DigitalOcean or any other major provider, it's probably blacklisted as well. That can cut you off from customers on mobile networks like Orange, whose "cybersecurity protection" uses blacklists like UCEPROTECT to filter traffic.

Honestly, in my 20-year career, this is the first time I've seen a blacklist misbehave this badly and ask for money when there's clearly been no wrongdoing.

[1] http://www.uceprotect.net/en/rblcheck.php?asn=14061

[2] https://www.whitelisted.org/

Comments

someonebaggy•2h ago
All of the spam blocklists are like this.

At one time quite recently, Cloudflare was on Spamhaus's "Don't Route Or Peer" list. Imagine where the world would be if anyone cared about that list.

But if an entire ISP is blocking you based on UCEPROTECT, which is designed for email spam filters - are you sure? An ISP that blocked all of DO would get so many complaints and be open to so much legal liability. Usually these are only used for email filtering.

goldenmember•1h ago
I disagree. Normally you can reach out to request delisting, and it's free.

As I explained, Orange's security filter seems to automatically block requests at the DNS level if your website's domain resolves to an IP listed on UCEPROTECT Level 3. In this case, that appears to be the entire DigitalOcean ASN.

someonebaggy•1h ago
You probably have standing to sue Orange for damages if they're blocking your customers from you based on bullshit criteria.

I am not a lawyer, so consult one.

john_strinlai•51m ago
>At one time quite recently, Cloudflare was on Spamhaus's "Don't Route Or Peer" list.

it was only 2 /23's (only 1024 IPs, ASN14061 is 3,140,680 IPs), and was resolved without a monthly subscription in ~24 hours after being posted to the NANOG mailing list

https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog@lists.nanog.org/...

JohnMakin•1h ago
DigitalOcean has been on their list for a while, they say something like “if you don’t want to be flagged as spam, dont host on a site that hosts spammers” which is pretty ridiculous given every cloud platform does
mmh0000•1h ago
It’s not ridiculous.

Hosting providers should be good citizens of the network and immediately terminate spammer accounts. This used to be standard practice until about 2015. When suddenly management decided it’s more profitable host spammers than not.

I think this is a great policy decision by uceprotect.

goldenmember•1h ago
Following your logic, we'd need to block the entire US, since that's where DigitalOcean's ASN is registered.
ozim•1h ago
Sounds like this should go via Orange they have means to slap UCEPROTECT on the wrist. It also looks like it would be in Orange business to have proper spam lists not ones like that.
goldenmember•1h ago
While I absolutely agree that Orange is acting irresponsibly here, I also understand that they're not the only ones who rely on UCEPROTECT.
ButlerianJihad•1h ago
For a long time, the Internet has been replete with blocklists and reputation scores cultivated by admins who had the means to track such things. And ad-blocking software/DNS often gives users the chance to tap into those bad reputations and protect themselves.

However, there is nothing preventing function/scope creep of these blocklists into things they should not be. Political bias, censorship, morality policing will trickle into blocklists. Furthermore these false positives are quite onerous for legit businesses and customers who sincerely want to connect. I've connected again to an ad-blocking DNS service, and many people may subscribe to filtering services, or simply be involuntarily subscribed, in the hopes that their Internet would stay usable, and scam-free.

I suppose this is the price to pay in low-trust society (wild and wooly Internet). I wonder if the Great Firewall of China obviates the need for their citizens to throw up such protective measures.

rithdmc•1h ago
Which Orange are you blocked on?

I personally found Meteor in Ireland (previously owned by Orange) to be far more liberal with blocks on an unregistered mobile internet connection than other providers.

Also, Orange UK have a much stricter block list to enforce than, for example, Orange FR.

goldenmember•1h ago
Orange FR.
pelagicAustral•1h ago
I think what's happening is obviously not fair, and should be corrected, but I also what to say that I've had pretty bad experiences when working with DO. I think maybe what happens is that they take too long to weed out problematic accounts. Not going to mention any other provider so it's not assumed that shilling for someone else, but there are quite a few that are no in the AWS, GCP, or Azure tier and work just fine, so, shouldnt be too hard to find a replacement.
mrmattyboy•1h ago
The uceprotect Level 3 page clearly says using the list will cause collateral damage and should only use as an indicator as part of a spam score, not to act purely on it.

So, yes, if a service provider is known for having a lot of spam coming from it, it makes sense to be on there. They're not saying every IP is bad, they're literally stating the opposite (which seems fair).

So, if Orange are blocking purely based on it, not only are they using a spam filter as a DNS query/web filter (given uceprotect seems to flag based on mail spam traps based detections etc.) and ignoring their documentation (which says it shouldn't be used to block on it's own).

goldenmember•1h ago
Well, if it's just an indicator, why not delist automatically on request, as other blocklists do? It seems inappropriate to charge for this.
niels8472•1h ago
And not just charge. You need to get a subscription even!
nubinetwork•58m ago
Theoretically speaking, a person could get themselves blocked, request an unblocking, and keep on spamming, hoping they won't get blocked again.
john_strinlai•55m ago
right now, they can apparently just spend $108/year and keep on spamming.
cendyne•57m ago
UCEPROTECT is why I stopped self hosting my own email :(
someonebaggy•36m ago
I use my least reputable domains to send emails that are most important for the recipient and least important for me. If they don't receive it now it's their problem not mine.
SoftTalker•10m ago
That's the thing a lot of people don't understand about email. Delivery is not guaranteed. And neither is notification about failed delivery. Bits can just fall on the floor somewhere and you'll never know.
garaetjjte•56m ago
Why do you think Orange is using Uceprotect? It seems unlikely that big corp would use some weird unknown list.
mercurialuser•12m ago
I was reviewing uceprotect policies a couple of hours ago and what you say is really strange.

Uce level 3 should never be used alone to block general tcp traffic.

Are you saying that Orange is using uce level 3 to block email sent from your DO vm? Are you really sure that Orange blocks for this list only? Is it possible that your ip is on another RBL?

If Orange is really blocking smtp based only on uce level 3 they are doing wrong: their system may be mis-configured or they have not read correctly hiw level 3 is populated.

Or - probably - they did on pourpose!

Today I checked september smtp traffic: almost 99% of traffic coming from uce level 1 (single ips) was spam. Traffic hitting level 2 but not present in level 1 (subnets, one I checked was /15!!) was also 99% spam.

Of the 5000k messages received, very few arrived into the mailboxes. A lot of messages were blocked by following spam checks and the few remaining were flagged as spam.

I feel your pain. If you host on DO and you send email, you should look for a email provider that will funnel your emails.

Ps: i repeat, email shoild not be bloocked only by uce level 3

5kyl4b•8m ago
https://uceprotect.wtf

Check this...