This is a horrible idea and nearly impossible and I cannot believe they didn't bother addressing the nearly insurmountable technical hurdles which face any group trying to synchronize a musical performance online.
Even using specialized software and hardware, it is difficult. Trying to (ab)use Zoom or Teams for simultaneous performance is an exercise in futility and frustration.
It is not merely latency that gets in your way, but that is a large part of it. It is also the nature of the codecs, and the nature of the processing. These videoconferencing apps are designed to spotlight one speaker with many spectators. They were never designed to accommodate everyone having a go all at once!
Many people found out, during the pandemic, that they needed to "fake it" if they were trying to record a choral performance. Record your piece one at a time. Send it over to the next person and they add to it; it's manually "touched up" and synced by an editor. And so forth.
"Virtual choirs" are divisive and ableist. Only those who have the "proper technology" can even consider admission to these groups. I have been a member of various choirs in my life. Sometimes this was even possible when I was living on the streets. I did not require a car, nor an iPad, nor an Internet connection to be a choir member. I only needed to bring myself and a positive attitude.
Membership in real choirs is a fulfilling and uplifting experience. There are no words for the way it makes me feel, to sing together with other people, in a room. Especially when we are fully rehearsed and we perform for an audience who applauds and appreciates our work. Choirs are the ultimate in collaborative and cooperative recreation. I've sung Disney songs, I've sung songs by Rogers & Hammerstein; I've sung ancient Greek hymns. The experience is simply unparalleled.
simmerup•3h ago
These people have dementia
pavel_lishin•3h ago
> "Virtual choirs" are divisive and ableist. Only those who have the "proper technology" can even consider admission to these groups.
I could not disagree more.
I play D&D, and I strongly prefer in-person games to online games, to the point where I won't really entertain an online one without exceptional circumstances.
But it feels silly to suggest that this is ableist. I'm glad you were able to find a community when you were homeless, but for a lot of people, a car is required to show up in person, and costs a hell of a lot more than a basic laptop, or a cellphone. (And that's before we get to the fact that this study seems to focus explicitly on people with dementia, for whom traveling anywhere is likely more difficult than it is for you!)
Yes, latency is an issue, but I don't think these people are trying to put on professional performances; they're just looking for something social to do together, and singing is that thing for them.
AStonesThrow•1h ago
So, you do not sing in a choir or perform any music. You are someone who participates in an activity that lends itself uncommonly well to online conferences. In fact, it is a wonderful confluence of nerd culture that makes AD&D even more enjoyable if it is done virtually. You can screen-share, you can do custom graphics and filter effects, and AD&D is fundamentally a turn-based game, where the synchronicity comes down to a granularity of the turns you're taking, and lends itself to conversation among players and the DM.
And you are not in a choir, and you have not attempted to sing with others live online, and in fact you don't seem to even care about the objections I've raised.
However, I have participated in choirs for over 25 years. I have extensive live experience, with choral singing, with both secular and sacred music, with mixed-voice choirs, SATB. And in a church choir, we deliver live performances, with high production values, at least every week! That can be a grueling schedule, and it is arguably the most demanding schedule for any lay minister.
But we do it live and in-person.
And you just don't care that it's impossible to sing together virtually, over Zoom or Teams, or absolutely any means. It's impossible, do you understand?
I mean, like, what if I said, I'm going to have a group of ladies doing Synchronized Swimming online! It'll be great! Just watch 'em! Well we need to use reaaaally long fiber optic cables!
And then there's this group who does Tandem Skydiving over Zoom! It's the coolest! Look at these GoPros we fitted with WiiMax or something?
It is abuse to rope people into an impossible activity. It would be crazymaking to me, if my church or our volunteer leadership, would force me into a virtual singing activity. Because it can't be done. And if they are singing "asynchronously" and then mixing them down later on, that is not "building community" but they are all disconnected from one another; they are not connecting on a human level but they are simply being exploited to make music in an artificial way. Because studio musicians can make asynchronous music; session musicians can deal with performing to pre-recorded tracks, and then mixing it all together, but elderly dementia patients are hoping and praying for a human experience, not "gig work", as it were.
I am the first guy who would encourage anyone to build community online and virtually, especially if it can't be done, if disability is a barrier. But please, for God's sake, build your community around feasible activities. Do something that is doable!!! Do not expect the impossible from these poor people.
Don't be deluded. Especially if people are amateurs and they are not working from experience, an impossible task will be all-the-more crazymaking to them. They will not understand the technological limitations, and they will not understand that no matter what they do, they will not succeed in synchronizing their voices or instruments.
AStonesThrow•5h ago
Even using specialized software and hardware, it is difficult. Trying to (ab)use Zoom or Teams for simultaneous performance is an exercise in futility and frustration.
It is not merely latency that gets in your way, but that is a large part of it. It is also the nature of the codecs, and the nature of the processing. These videoconferencing apps are designed to spotlight one speaker with many spectators. They were never designed to accommodate everyone having a go all at once!
Many people found out, during the pandemic, that they needed to "fake it" if they were trying to record a choral performance. Record your piece one at a time. Send it over to the next person and they add to it; it's manually "touched up" and synced by an editor. And so forth.
"Virtual choirs" are divisive and ableist. Only those who have the "proper technology" can even consider admission to these groups. I have been a member of various choirs in my life. Sometimes this was even possible when I was living on the streets. I did not require a car, nor an iPad, nor an Internet connection to be a choir member. I only needed to bring myself and a positive attitude.
Membership in real choirs is a fulfilling and uplifting experience. There are no words for the way it makes me feel, to sing together with other people, in a room. Especially when we are fully rehearsed and we perform for an audience who applauds and appreciates our work. Choirs are the ultimate in collaborative and cooperative recreation. I've sung Disney songs, I've sung songs by Rogers & Hammerstein; I've sung ancient Greek hymns. The experience is simply unparalleled.
simmerup•3h ago
pavel_lishin•3h ago
I could not disagree more.
I play D&D, and I strongly prefer in-person games to online games, to the point where I won't really entertain an online one without exceptional circumstances.
But it feels silly to suggest that this is ableist. I'm glad you were able to find a community when you were homeless, but for a lot of people, a car is required to show up in person, and costs a hell of a lot more than a basic laptop, or a cellphone. (And that's before we get to the fact that this study seems to focus explicitly on people with dementia, for whom traveling anywhere is likely more difficult than it is for you!)
Yes, latency is an issue, but I don't think these people are trying to put on professional performances; they're just looking for something social to do together, and singing is that thing for them.
AStonesThrow•1h ago
And you are not in a choir, and you have not attempted to sing with others live online, and in fact you don't seem to even care about the objections I've raised.
However, I have participated in choirs for over 25 years. I have extensive live experience, with choral singing, with both secular and sacred music, with mixed-voice choirs, SATB. And in a church choir, we deliver live performances, with high production values, at least every week! That can be a grueling schedule, and it is arguably the most demanding schedule for any lay minister.
But we do it live and in-person.
And you just don't care that it's impossible to sing together virtually, over Zoom or Teams, or absolutely any means. It's impossible, do you understand?
I mean, like, what if I said, I'm going to have a group of ladies doing Synchronized Swimming online! It'll be great! Just watch 'em! Well we need to use reaaaally long fiber optic cables!
And then there's this group who does Tandem Skydiving over Zoom! It's the coolest! Look at these GoPros we fitted with WiiMax or something?
It is abuse to rope people into an impossible activity. It would be crazymaking to me, if my church or our volunteer leadership, would force me into a virtual singing activity. Because it can't be done. And if they are singing "asynchronously" and then mixing them down later on, that is not "building community" but they are all disconnected from one another; they are not connecting on a human level but they are simply being exploited to make music in an artificial way. Because studio musicians can make asynchronous music; session musicians can deal with performing to pre-recorded tracks, and then mixing it all together, but elderly dementia patients are hoping and praying for a human experience, not "gig work", as it were.
I am the first guy who would encourage anyone to build community online and virtually, especially if it can't be done, if disability is a barrier. But please, for God's sake, build your community around feasible activities. Do something that is doable!!! Do not expect the impossible from these poor people.
Don't be deluded. Especially if people are amateurs and they are not working from experience, an impossible task will be all-the-more crazymaking to them. They will not understand the technological limitations, and they will not understand that no matter what they do, they will not succeed in synchronizing their voices or instruments.