frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

GenAI-Accelerated TLA+ Challenge

https://foundation.tlapl.us/challenge/index.html
35•lemmster•1y ago

Comments

Taikonerd•1y ago
Using LLMs for formal specs / formal modeling makes a lot of sense to me. If an LLM can do the work of going from informal English-language specs to TLA+ / Dafny / etc, then it can hook into a very mature ecosystem of automated proof tools.

I'm picturing it something like this:

1. Human developer says, "if a user isn't authenticated, they shouldn't be able to place an order."

2. LLM takes this, and its knowledge of the codebase, and turns it into a formal spec -- like, "there is no code path where User.is_authenticated is false and Orders.place() is called."

3. Existing code analysis tools can confirm or find a counterexample.

omneity•1y ago
A fascinating thought. But then who verifies that the TLA+ specification does indeed match the human specification?

I’m guessing using an LLM as a translator narrows the gap, and better LLMs will make it narrower eventually, but is there a way to quantify this? For example how would it compare to a human translating the spec into TLA+?

justanotheratom•1y ago
maybe run it through few other LLMs depending on how much confidence you need - o3 pro, gemini 2.5 pro, claude 3.7, grok 3, etc..
svieira•1y ago
Then you need to be able to formally prove the equivalence of various TLA+ programs (maybe that's a solved problem?)
omneity•1y ago
No idea about SOTA but naively it doesn't seem like a very difficult problem:

- Ensure all TLA+ specs produced have the same inputs/outputs (domains, mostly a prompting problem and can solved with retries)

- That all TLA+ produce the same outputs for the same inputs (making them functionally equivalent in practice, might be computationally intensive)

Of course that assumes your input domains are countable but it's probably okay to sample from large ranges for a certain "level" of equivalence.

EDIT: Not sure how that will work with non-determinism though.

justanotheratom•1y ago
I didn't mean generate separate TLA programs. Rather, other LLMs review and comment on whether this TLA program satisfies the user's specification.
Taikonerd•1y ago
A fair question! I'd say it's not that different from using an LLM to write regular code: who verifies that the code the LLM wrote is indeed what you meant?
fmap•1y ago
The usual way to check whether a definition is correct is to prove properties about it that you think should hold. TLA+ has good support for this, both with model checking as well as simple proofs.
frogmeister57•1y ago
It makes a lot of sense only for graphics card sales people. For everyone else with a working neuron the sole idea is utter nonsense.
max_•1y ago
Leslie Lamport said that he invented TLA+ so people could "think above the code".

It was meant as a tool for people to improve their thinking and description of systems.

LLM generation of TLA+ code is just intellectual masterbation.

It may get the work done for your boss. But you intellect will still remain bald — in which case you are better off not writing TLA+ at all.

warkdarrior•1y ago
> [TLA+] was meant as a tool for people to improve their thinking and description of systems.

Why the speciesism? Why couldn't LLMs use TLA+ by translating a natural-language request into a TLA+ model and then checking it in TLA+?

jjmarr•1y ago
Not the OP, but I would rather give a formal specification of my system to an AI and have it generate the code.

I believe the point is it's easier for a human to verify a system's correctness as expressed in TLA+ and verify code correctly matches the system than it is to correctly verify the entire code as a system at once.

Then, if my model of the system is flawed, TLA+ will tell me.

I'm an AI bull so if I give the LLM a natural language description, I'd like the LLM to explain the model instead of just writing the TLA+ code.

max_•1y ago
TLA+ was invented in the first place because we Leslie Lamport thought natural language was a dubious tool for "specifying systems".

Yes an LLM may generate the TLA+ code even correctly, but model checking is not the end goal of TLA+

TLA+ plus is written to fully under how a system works at an abstract level.

Anyways, I guess you could just read the LLM generated TLA+ code. That would help you understand the abstraction of the system — but is the LLMs abstraction equal to your abstraction.

But vibe coded TLA+ sounds extremely dangerous especially in mission critical stuff where its required like Smart Contracts, Pacemakers, Aircraft software etc

frogmeister57•1y ago
Using generative chatbots to write a formal spec is the most stupid idea ever. Specs are all about reasoning. You need to do the thinking to model the system in a very simplified manner. Formal methods and the generative BS are at the antipodes of reliability. This is an insult to reason. Please keep this nonsense away from the serious parts of CS.
siscia•1y ago
Anyone who has tried to write formal verification will tell you that there is a WIDE gap between thinking and writing the specs.

Any tool that makes formal verification more accessible, should be welcome.

I believe the valuable part is how accessible we make thinking together with machines.

Us human are great at create innovative solutions, not so great at check and verify every single thing that can go wrong. Machines help with that.

kelseyfrog•1y ago
Interesting. I've always wanted to formalize the US Constitution into TLA+ in order to find loopholes.

AI should have senior lawyers sharpening their hunting spears

https://www.ft.com/content/905e18e6-f054-4995-b5a7-0ff52a65ae57
1•petethomas•1m ago•0 comments

MSI Slyly Shows Off an Upcoming DLC AMD EPYC Venice Platform

https://www.servethehome.com/msi-slyly-shows-off-an-upcoming-dlc-amd-epyc-venice-platform-with-cd...
1•ksec•3m ago•1 comments

Pastors Using AI to Help Write Sermons Grapple with Where to Draw the Line

https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/pastors-using-ai-to-help-write-sermons-grapple-with-where-to-draw-the...
1•bookofjoe•5m ago•1 comments

Show HN: Promptdna.org- a community library of composable prompt blocks with MCP

https://promptdna.org
1•impendingchange•6m ago•0 comments

I Read the Bonsai 27B Paper. What You Gain–and Lose–With 1-Bit Compression

https://medium.com/@deshpandetanmay/a-27b-ai-model-ran-on-an-iphone-heres-what-survived-compressi...
2•tanmaydesh5189•12m ago•0 comments

Show HN: A self-hosted AI that turns Hacker News into a daily briefing

https://github.com/RecNes/hn-ai-summarizer
1•SencerH•12m ago•0 comments

Self-evolving repo for team and coding agent collaboration

https://www.sepo.sh/
2•liangqiyao99•13m ago•0 comments

Ancient Roman farm women made wine, oil and profits

https://phys.org/news/2026-07-ancient-roman-farm-women-wine.html
1•1659447091•13m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Rate A Human – AI agents review the humans they work for

https://rateahuman.xyz/
1•ziadhussein•14m ago•0 comments

A real SAT solution. P is not always hard

https://zenodo.org/records/21445865
1•GeometryKernel•16m ago•0 comments

Tripplet AI – a new era of smarter AI

https://www.getsonoma.lol/
1•htmghrceceg•19m ago•0 comments

Godot Benchmark: Sol > K3 > Fable

https://ziva.sh/blogs/godot-ai-benchmark
1•OsrsNeedsf2P•19m ago•0 comments

Ask HN: Run Kimi in Claude Code?

1•Exorust•20m ago•0 comments

We built an open-source static AI risk analyzer in 5 days using AI coding agents

https://github.com/ikaruscareer/SafeAI
1•ikaruscareer•20m ago•0 comments

Meet The Companies Shelling Out for Top AI Models

https://www.wsj.com/cio-journal/meet-the-companies-shelling-out-for-top-ai-models-e1fe3375
1•pixelcort•20m ago•0 comments

Boeing says it will be ready to fund new plane programme by 2030

https://www.ft.com/content/c688ea11-c066-44a3-9372-2e2293e9e6f9
3•JumpCrisscross•29m ago•0 comments

Principia Artificialis – Mathematical Foundations of Artificial Thought

https://github.com/holland202/Principia-Artificialis
3•badatchess•31m ago•0 comments

Gaia Skill Tree: a registry where every agent skill ships with an evidence chain

https://github.com/gaia-research/gaia-skill-tree
1•nova-gaia•36m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Ticker-line.com – embeddable market sparkline SVGs

https://ticker-line.com/
1•kahtaf•37m ago•0 comments

Scientists are regrowing human teeth

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20260717-goodbye-implants-scientists-are-regrowing-teeth
2•dabinat•38m ago•1 comments

Is it a slop if it's not sloppy?

https://mkagenius.substack.com/p/is-it-a-slop-if-its-not-sloppy
3•mkagenius•41m ago•3 comments

Jurassic Park packed $4M of legit 1993 computer hardware

https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/jurassic-park-packed-usd4-million-of-legit-1993-computer-ha...
6•sbulaev•46m ago•2 comments

xAI's first lawsuit against a user tests who is responsible for what Grok makes

https://thenextweb.com/news/xai-sues-grok-user-csam-terms-of-service
7•nyku•47m ago•2 comments

We want Texans to know their rights

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2026/07/we-want-texans-know-their-rights-qa-mayday-health-impact-su...
30•amarcheschi•50m ago•5 comments

The Control Group Is Out of Control (2014)

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/28/the-control-group-is-out-of-control/
4•downbad_•51m ago•0 comments

Ask HN: How are you doing threat modeling for Terraform/IaC?

2•PotatoFy•53m ago•1 comments

On Creativity

https://twitter.com/bekhovsgun/status/2078959026004471973
3•reb•54m ago•0 comments

Grok-iOS – remote Grok Build from your iPhone over ACP

https://github.com/Pedroshakoor/grok-build-ios
6•pedroshakoor•1h ago•0 comments

Biggest Probabilistic Computer Turns Noise into Answers

https://spectrum.ieee.org/biggest-probabilistic-computer
2•rbanffy•1h ago•0 comments

Bad roads act as filters (1967)

https://wist.info/krutch-joseph-wood/53557/
2•dredmorbius•1h ago•1 comments