frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

GenAI-Accelerated TLA+ Challenge

https://foundation.tlapl.us/challenge/index.html
35•lemmster•1y ago

Comments

Taikonerd•1y ago
Using LLMs for formal specs / formal modeling makes a lot of sense to me. If an LLM can do the work of going from informal English-language specs to TLA+ / Dafny / etc, then it can hook into a very mature ecosystem of automated proof tools.

I'm picturing it something like this:

1. Human developer says, "if a user isn't authenticated, they shouldn't be able to place an order."

2. LLM takes this, and its knowledge of the codebase, and turns it into a formal spec -- like, "there is no code path where User.is_authenticated is false and Orders.place() is called."

3. Existing code analysis tools can confirm or find a counterexample.

omneity•1y ago
A fascinating thought. But then who verifies that the TLA+ specification does indeed match the human specification?

I’m guessing using an LLM as a translator narrows the gap, and better LLMs will make it narrower eventually, but is there a way to quantify this? For example how would it compare to a human translating the spec into TLA+?

justanotheratom•1y ago
maybe run it through few other LLMs depending on how much confidence you need - o3 pro, gemini 2.5 pro, claude 3.7, grok 3, etc..
svieira•1y ago
Then you need to be able to formally prove the equivalence of various TLA+ programs (maybe that's a solved problem?)
omneity•1y ago
No idea about SOTA but naively it doesn't seem like a very difficult problem:

- Ensure all TLA+ specs produced have the same inputs/outputs (domains, mostly a prompting problem and can solved with retries)

- That all TLA+ produce the same outputs for the same inputs (making them functionally equivalent in practice, might be computationally intensive)

Of course that assumes your input domains are countable but it's probably okay to sample from large ranges for a certain "level" of equivalence.

EDIT: Not sure how that will work with non-determinism though.

justanotheratom•1y ago
I didn't mean generate separate TLA programs. Rather, other LLMs review and comment on whether this TLA program satisfies the user's specification.
Taikonerd•1y ago
A fair question! I'd say it's not that different from using an LLM to write regular code: who verifies that the code the LLM wrote is indeed what you meant?
fmap•1y ago
The usual way to check whether a definition is correct is to prove properties about it that you think should hold. TLA+ has good support for this, both with model checking as well as simple proofs.
frogmeister57•1y ago
It makes a lot of sense only for graphics card sales people. For everyone else with a working neuron the sole idea is utter nonsense.
max_•1y ago
Leslie Lamport said that he invented TLA+ so people could "think above the code".

It was meant as a tool for people to improve their thinking and description of systems.

LLM generation of TLA+ code is just intellectual masterbation.

It may get the work done for your boss. But you intellect will still remain bald — in which case you are better off not writing TLA+ at all.

warkdarrior•1y ago
> [TLA+] was meant as a tool for people to improve their thinking and description of systems.

Why the speciesism? Why couldn't LLMs use TLA+ by translating a natural-language request into a TLA+ model and then checking it in TLA+?

jjmarr•1y ago
Not the OP, but I would rather give a formal specification of my system to an AI and have it generate the code.

I believe the point is it's easier for a human to verify a system's correctness as expressed in TLA+ and verify code correctly matches the system than it is to correctly verify the entire code as a system at once.

Then, if my model of the system is flawed, TLA+ will tell me.

I'm an AI bull so if I give the LLM a natural language description, I'd like the LLM to explain the model instead of just writing the TLA+ code.

max_•1y ago
TLA+ was invented in the first place because we Leslie Lamport thought natural language was a dubious tool for "specifying systems".

Yes an LLM may generate the TLA+ code even correctly, but model checking is not the end goal of TLA+

TLA+ plus is written to fully under how a system works at an abstract level.

Anyways, I guess you could just read the LLM generated TLA+ code. That would help you understand the abstraction of the system — but is the LLMs abstraction equal to your abstraction.

But vibe coded TLA+ sounds extremely dangerous especially in mission critical stuff where its required like Smart Contracts, Pacemakers, Aircraft software etc

frogmeister57•1y ago
Using generative chatbots to write a formal spec is the most stupid idea ever. Specs are all about reasoning. You need to do the thinking to model the system in a very simplified manner. Formal methods and the generative BS are at the antipodes of reliability. This is an insult to reason. Please keep this nonsense away from the serious parts of CS.
siscia•1y ago
Anyone who has tried to write formal verification will tell you that there is a WIDE gap between thinking and writing the specs.

Any tool that makes formal verification more accessible, should be welcome.

I believe the valuable part is how accessible we make thinking together with machines.

Us human are great at create innovative solutions, not so great at check and verify every single thing that can go wrong. Machines help with that.

kelseyfrog•1y ago
Interesting. I've always wanted to formalize the US Constitution into TLA+ in order to find loopholes.

Omarchy M is bringing Omarchy to Apple Silicon

https://omarchy.org/news/2026/10/namespace-joins-as-a-distinguished-corporate-patron/
1•stikit•2m ago•0 comments

LiveClaude – keep Claude/Cursor remote sessions alive across reboot

https://github.com/LeandroCannizzaro/LiveClaude
1•livEApplication•2m ago•0 comments

Customer Solutions Engineer

https://torre.ai/post/ed89YKNr-agave-customer-solutions-engineer
1•CathereneNganga•7m ago•0 comments

Teams too busy doing their job to experiment with AI are going to be replaced

https://ghuntley.com/replaced/
1•ai_critic•8m ago•1 comments

Show HN: HN Jev Sorter – classify HN comments in real time

https://github.com/ritza-co/hn-jev-sorter
1•sixhobbits•10m ago•0 comments

Radxa's Q8B has 2x the performance and expansion of the Pi 5

https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/radxa-q8b-double-pi-5/
1•ingve•12m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Babytalk: Offline speech to text and text to speech on ESP32

https://github.com/tlack/babytalk
2•tlack•14m ago•1 comments

DIRU: Dendrite-inspired recurrent units for learning chaotic dynamics

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00521-026-12526-w
1•giorgiodidio•16m ago•0 comments

Geely confirms Canada entry with first cars in 2027 – but no models yet

https://electrek.co/2026/10/09/geely-auto-canada-entry-2027/
2•cisc•22m ago•0 comments

Kaspar – C++20 HFT trading system and order book simulator

https://github.com/vincent212/kaspar-hft
1•vincent212•22m ago•0 comments

Show HN: SpecWeave 3 – hand off a coding task across Claude Code, Codex and Grok

https://github.com/anton-abyzov/specweave
2•aabyzov•23m ago•0 comments

OpenAI mistranslated mathematics into code for its Navier-Stokes proof

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2592824-openai-mistranslated-mathematics-into-code-for-its-n...
2•danielmorozoff•23m ago•0 comments

Claude Design is moving to Artifacts in the Claude app

https://support.claude.com/en/articles/17440474-migrate-from-standalone-claude-design-to-claude
3•reinhash•28m ago•0 comments

Tesla drops 'Full Self-Driving' name in Europe after Germany pushback

https://electrek.co/2026/10/09/tesla-fsd-renamed-tesla-assisted-driving-europe/
4•cisc•28m ago•1 comments

What's New in Python 3.15

https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.15.html
4•kylebarron•29m ago•1 comments

Jeventus: A Jev Powered Slack Pet

https://twitter.com/thepericulum/status/2108649129798701363
3•jljljl•30m ago•1 comments

A model that can play chess well and explain its moves

https://twitter.com/AdithyaNLP/status/2107123924828049691
2•dash2•33m ago•0 comments

Our Elements: My questions and answers about the periodic table

https://vester.si/our-elements/
3•vesterde•34m ago•1 comments

Autonomous AI Lamp

https://www.autonomous.ai/lamp
2•handfuloflight•37m ago•0 comments

I tested 20 memecoin trading strategies on 43.6M trades. All 20 died

https://dead-signals.onrender.com/
2•aurryx•38m ago•0 comments

Don't Make Me Use Your Harness

https://jrdsgl.com/dont-make-me-use-your-harness/
4•hnaccount93•39m ago•0 comments

YouTuber Says Cops Visited Him After He Built a Flock-Style Camera to Track Cops

https://gizmodo.com/youtuber-says-cops-paid-him-a-visit-after-he-built-flock-style-camera-to-trac...
110•gumby•41m ago•41 comments

What Is Happening to Bitwarden

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitwarden/s/HgbRQrqU7u
3•wapasta•41m ago•1 comments

Mass Driver: Solar system routing mini-game

https://mass-driver.scottyah.com
2•scottyah•42m ago•1 comments

Tanker attacks in Strait of Hormuz surge to wartime high, Iran tries choking oil

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/10/09/iran-war-strait-hormuz-tanker-attack-oil.html
5•MilnerRoute•45m ago•0 comments

AI companies plot "the day after"

https://www.axios.com/2026/10/09/ai-companies-day-after-major-attack
2•jna_sh•50m ago•1 comments

MultiClaude, run several Claude desktop accounts side by side on a Mac

https://github.com/QuentinCar0n/multiclaude
2•quentincaron0•52m ago•0 comments

The argument to disagregate Kubernetes makes a lot of sense

https://edera.dev/stories/disaggregated-kubernetes-contain-the-blast-radius
1•ivytheaxolotl•52m ago•0 comments

Ecosia switches from Mistral to open-weight AI models including Qwen, GLM, Kimi

https://technode.com/2026/10/09/ecosia-switches-from-mistral-to-open-weight-ai-models-including-q...
4•yogthos•52m ago•2 comments

EZ Make Oven – Make your own reflow oven with this easy to build project

https://learn.adafruit.com/ez-make-oven/overview
1•dmschulman•53m ago•0 comments