The Americans drilled daily with live cannon, while the British drilled less often, and without live fire (presumably to conserve powder and balls).
As an unsurprising result, American crews were more experienced at reloading under the duress of cannonade. The sound on the gun decks was so great it would burst eardrums. The smoke made it too hard to see anything a few feet from the portals.
If you've never been near a gunpowder cannon fire, it's hard to comprehend the surreal rupture of reality it causes in your perception. I was to the side, but in front, of one. My world went black, then lightening values of gray. Sound returned. Then people appeared in the fog, moving with their arms out trying to get away blindly from the threat they perceived (that was already over).
Without proper training, new sailors will stumble badly in their first firefight, and each man on the gundeck is crucial to a team. The officers were outside the deck, so they could receive orders. If you can't load your cannon while blind and deaf, your cannon sits quiet a long time.
Archer kinda gets this more-right than most things, LOL. "MAWP! MAWP!"
Part of that is because the sound volume is just so drastically different compared to normally talking; microphones have trouble with it, audio amplifiers end up clipping [0], and most speakers would blow out if the amp didn't clip (especially for the larger guns). And, assuming none of that happened then, just as you would have on a gun deck, your listeners' ears would be damaged. So the sound of gunfire in media is quieted.
Most people simply aren't around guns in the first place, let alone firing guns (eg, going to a gun range with friends/family/etc even if you don't own a gun), to understand just how much media misrepresents it.
Is it typical to use a shotgun in an indoor range? I thought shotguns were for killing clay pigeons.
It's not explicitly rude but depending on the exact circumstances it's kind of pushing it to shoot 12ga and full power rifle rounds at indoor recreational ranges. Like don't do it on Saturday morning when it's busy and everyone is their with their wife or kids or whatever. Anything with enough concussion to be obnoxious to other shooters is sus.
But even a .270 /30-06 puts out a lot more noise than you think it will. You jump right out of your skin the first shot.
I'm pretty sure the effect comes from the sound and not something like toxic gasses because I never get the feeling shooting smaller calibers, nor do I get it when shooting with a silencer. It's too bad silencers are so restricted in the US. I think a lot of shooters would be in better health if they were more common.
We're instructed to exhale before firing because the concussion of the round leaving the front while its propellent leaves the back of the tube creates a brief vacuum. If you don't exhale, the air is forced out of your lungs so violently you feel like you got punched in the chest.
The noise is undoubtedly part of it, but the atmospheric effect is not insignificant, I think.
Yeah that's exactly why indoor ranges kind of suck for any serious rifle caliber.
With an actual threat, it sounds like it was a genuine cannon firefight -- though surely not these days. May I ask what this was?
The British had to start using cut down ships of the line against them.
In WW2 terms, they were battle cruisers taking on heavy and light cruisers.
The battle cruiser example is especially apt because a 24lb cannon could pierce any ship of the line’s hull.
It was curious how effectively the American naval establishment gamed the European 'honor' system of naval warfare - they knew that if they kept these warships technically rated as 'frigates' (even though they were the largest and most powerful frigates ever built, similar in size to smaller ships of the line), the British would still try to fight them one on one with their frigates.
at most a minor skirmish within the larger ongoing wars with France
If the modern US did that, we'd have Gundams and Super Star Destroyers.
Upside: He's a professional British naval historian, and knows this subject extremely well.
Downside: That I recall, he's never produced a video that concentrates on answering the "why was the Royal Navy so dominant..." question. Instead, he's covered the subject in bit and pieces across a huge number of videos.
Britain only became a thing after union in 1707. They had a good ~200 years, what with a great empire and industrialization and then an added bonus with America speaking English and britain being less damaged by WW2 than the rest of europe.
I reread this three times and I can’t make heads or tails of what it’s supposed to mean. There is an oversupply of officers. They are kept at half pay. This affords opportunities to discipline officers. This is presumably because there are others willing to take his place, but all that is referenced is a captain’s list. Is this the list of officers on half-pay?
I genuinely can’t even understand the argument being made in brackets.
This made it easy to replace underperforming officers with those on the bench
Officers with the actual rank of captain would normally be permanently posted to a ship's command, and only large, prominent, or prestigious warships were captained by captain-rank officers. So it was highly desirable to at least attain that rank. You could get there by achievement on a temporary command which is part of why they were so sought after. Or simply through politics and patronage: the naval officer corps being intimately tied up with both the waning aristocratic and emerging modern nation-state systems.
Officers on the lists were necessarily "gentlemen" in a technical legal-social sense, and were mostly free to pursue their social, family and business interests when not posted to a command. Depending on their resources and connections outside the navy, they could have quite excellent alternatives to a command that was unlikely to make them much money. Or, like younger sons of small or declining holdings would take anything they could get.
Anyway this is what I remember from all the external reading I did trying to make sense of the politics of command in the aubrey-maturin books which is I think the normal way to learn it these days.
The way I understood it is that main incentive was to capture ships, that's on top of the pay; So, like a bonus structure in modern day and age. If you weren't assigned to a ship, you'd still get paid but half of what you'd get on a ship. Since there were eventually more officers than ships, this created a pool of officers eager for assignments and thus "if you won't, there's someone that will" management style.
Now, a bit more complicated what Allen argued about, also from what I understood, is if captains were on fixed wage they'd turn down assignments (which they could since they weren't permanently employed) since reward isn't following the risk and you'd probably get only the worst or desperate captains to accept the job instead of competent which have all the reasons to refuse.
I don't know, maybe I read it wrong, but it makes sense like that at least.
They were able to reject commissions because they weren't technically employed by the navy while unassigned. Officers could turn down a posting and still draw half pay, and in fact they kept their half pay during retirement.
A ship with the weather gage can choose when and how to engage.
> This was technically inferior since the lower gun ports could often be underwater (see image) and because the downwind (leeward) position made it easier to flee if needed.
This is reductive to the point of error. The ports of the lower gun deck MAY be unable to be fired in very heavy seas, but that doesn't affect frigates, or the upper deck of a ship of the line.
Additionally, if a leeward ship attempts to flee from the windward ship, the leeward ship would risk exposing its stern to the windward ship's raking fire. The stern of a ship is the least armored, least armed and also contains the essential steering elements of a ship. A stern raking fire could pierce the hull and fly the entire length of the ship, causing tremendous damage, in addition to potentially crippling a ship's ability to steer.
Finally, the encouragement to engage with the enemy has an advantage the article omits - massive career incentives - it's a chance for British Navy lieutenants and commanders to earn promotion. Many a commander was made post after a successful engagement with the enemy and many a lieutenant was promoted to commander after a successful battle. Beyond glory, a lieutenants would make roughly half what a commander made, and a post captain could rely on additional pay based on seniority and ship. Since promotion to admiral was almost solely due to seniority on the post captains list, naval officers felt urgency to win promotion and to get on the list as soon as possible. An admiral took a share of any prizes won by vessels under his command and was the true way to gain wealth in the Navy.
Finally, Byng's case is an extreme outlier and relying on it to make arguments is dicey at best.
That seems like a significant technological advantage that the British Navy had over their adversaries, probably not specific to battle, but definitely for reliability and length of service, reduced maintenance, etc.
Indeed, if I had to wager, I would assume that the English against the Portuguese or the Dutch would do worse then against the Spanish or French, given the same firepower/size of ships etc. (For the record, did not check ‘the mighty internet’ whether my gut feelings are supported by facts) (Edit: but -> both)
neonnoodle•7h ago
NAPOLEON IS MASTER OF EUROPE.
ONLY THE BRITISH FLEET STANDS BEFORE HIM.
OCEANS ARE NOW BATTLEFIELDS.
alabastervlog•7h ago
2) I think part of why it stands out so much is that there are incredibly few excellently-made age of sail war films. A few of the black & white and early color era ones are pretty good (The Sea Hawk and such) but those are pretty different in tone. Master and Commander is very nearly unique. You have to switch over to sci fi (Star Trek, maybe Forbidden Planet) to scratch a similar itch. If you want specifically age of sail, with that structure and tone (war, edge-of-civilization exploration with a ship), your options are very limited.
3) I have discovered only very-belatedly that Peter Weir is one of my favorite directors. I had no idea for the longest time that the same guy did The Mosquito Coast, Master and Commander, The Year of Living Dangerously, Dead Poet's Society, Witness, and The Truman Show. Dude just knocked out one quietly-great movie after another, across multiple genres. I've gone back and picked up some others (Gallipoli, The Cars that Ate Paris) and have yet to be disappointed. The remainder of his all-too-short catalogue is high up my to-watch list. I've seen zero duds from him so far.
rienbdj•6h ago
iainmerrick•6h ago
I really love Peter Weir -- I don't think all of his movies are amazing, but many of them are, and they're all really ambitious and unique. He never rests on his laurels. (Reminds me in that respect of George Miller, director of Babe and Mad Max)
alabastervlog•6h ago
[EDIT] To expand on my late-discovered love of the guy's work, the key figures in my slowly drifting toward being a bit of an actual film fan were all people I knew by name: Spielberg (Empire of the Sun, plus all his usual biggies), Don Bluth (Learning so young that a movie can hurt... and that can be a really good thing!), and George Lucas (first by hooking me on Star Wars, which got me into making-ofs and the craft of film-making and editing, the idea of the pastiche film which sent me chasing down influences, and then with the prequels with wanting, owing to my prior high levels of engagement with the franchise, to dig deeper into "... but why, exactly, are they so bad?" which was its own kind of education); but then, some time in the back half of my 30s, I discovered that a bunch of other films that'd been key on that journey were all by this one other dude whose name had previously failed to register. He was this fourth major figure in the early and middle parts of this journey, for me, and I didn't even know it!
kridsdale3•5h ago
No magical beings, no one-in-a-trillion mega-celebrities. Just professionals doing their jobs within the Navy and the adventures they had as mortal, skilled, men.
What are the TIE Pilots talking about off-shift, how does the Captain feel about the new mission priorities?
Andor is closest we've had to seeing this POV.
alabastervlog•5h ago
kryogen1c•4h ago
This is one of the reasons I love Rogue One. There is a desperation that permeates the film that culminates into the titanic final scene
xeonmc•23m ago
Lio•7h ago
A detail I loved from both is that the French are treated with respect as formidable adversaries.
There's no love lost in battle but when either side are captured they generally treat each other well[2].
The other detail is the amount that the protagonists get permanently injured; burned, amputated, broken or just lost overboard. That happened, a lot and people just got on with it.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_and_Commander
2. Maturin does get tortured in one of the books but we'll gloss over that.
tclancy•6h ago
turtlesdown11•4h ago
dghlsakjg•5h ago
dylan604•7h ago
libraryofbabel•7h ago
OxfordOutlander•6h ago
idontwantthis•6h ago
mwigdahl•6h ago
throw0101c•5h ago
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aubrey–Maturin_series
gadders•5h ago
rout39574•4h ago
burntalmonds•4h ago
sklargh•7h ago
(Incredible movie and very enjoyable novels, recommend Master and Commander and Aubrey Maturin to all HN users)