It just takes too much self-discipline to break out of the internet consistently enough to build meaningful relationships without someone / something taking the initiative. I am sort of trying to replicate that at a larger scale by removing any friction to making plans.

Would love to hear your thoughts on if / what you think the solution is.

one of the unexpected consequences of social media is that people have been conflating being informed with being connected.

asking "what have you been up to?" was to be a nice easy opening into a conversation that lead to connection.

but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details.

but a relationship isn't built on updating a list of superficial facts. it's built by having a conversation

I lived under all of this, plus two immigrant parents with no community / role modeling, isolated in suburbia as a kid with a chronically online 20s.

Yeah that nurturing left its mark. Yet I learned to see it, and learn new patterns. In my 30s I have deep friendships. Younger, older, men, women, nb. Most are still shallow, my energy is limited, but even there sometimes we touch into depth when it comes to relationship or existential stuff.

Rewrite your programming.

> Not to mention testosterone levels dropping

Why should declining testosterone levels prevent men from socializing and making friends? Logically, it should be the other way around, right?

I'm real all the time. What am I missing here?

"they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space" -> I've always talked to people at work and also I joined the most socially awkward hobby I've ever seen (historical sword fencing) and people are still very chatty. I also recently started volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitator and find myself just constantly chatting.

"Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad" -> I've been friends with a lot of religious people but also non-religious people have strongly held beliefs (I hang out with a lot of vegans and I cannot imagine claiming they are afraid to publicly hold strong beliefs).

I think your post just goes to show how different mens' experiences can be because, while I'm sure a lot of men probably can connect with this, my personal experiences could not be more opposite. I think it depends a ton on the sorts of crowds you run in, it almost sounds to me like the people you meet are generally judgy and antisocial but I've found people I'm around to be generally friendly (though I've found many people are happy to chat but are often hard to actually organize to otherwise hang out since people in their 30s are busy and some of my friends have kids now).

People earn good money playing video games now (that wasn't the case in the 1980's) or streaming video games.

The sports heros children had while growing up used performance enhancing drugs in the 1990's.

> Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces ...

If your childhood heros take the lazy way to success, why do we need to blame it on the other things? Using your brain is hard, as it turns out.

I've always detested parents who saw sports as the only path of success for their children. So often they were disappointed. If the parents spent time and sucked up and learned the math/science/etc their kids were learning, it may have been a better outcome for all involved.

That's not to say nobody takes pics but they do it in a quiet corner so they don't catch anyone by mistake. It makes it very respectful. The stickers are just a reminder so you don't just start flicking away when you're drunk. It makes everyone feel safer and more genuine.

2) I guess but nothing some quick ice breaking games won't fix

3) In a small town there's much more familiarity yes. But also a much deeper sense of being watched and judged. I can't live with that. Even the small city I lived in was too small for me. Everyone knows everyone's business and constantly gossip behind your back.

The nice thing in a big city is meeting new people and finding new places. And the variety. In a small town there's a lot of pressure to conform, eg often you're an outcast if you're not religious. I don't think they're bad but there's little acceptance of people who are different. So what do you do? Pretend. That's not real connection.

In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places or events. And you can make real ties there. And even find out about other communities you might fit in.

I really hate going to male-exclusive places by the way. There's very few men I have a deep connection with (I'm male) because the whole BS thing that it's frowned upon to talk about feelings. "Men's weekends" just end up with too much beer, macho talk, shooting the shit and hanging in front of the TV watching boring sports or crappy porn. Nothing serious, fun or enlightening. That's my experience with those anyway. I find that exhausting and I always excuse myself from them now. I used to try to fit in but the others would know I hated it anyway so it was awkward.

I have much deeper relationships with lady friends. They're more open and less judgemental in general. I feel safer around them. So mixed events are a must for me.

The only way to establish relationships is to be real - so of course if you believe you can’t be real, that’ll be a problem.

Relationships kick off and grow and solidify via socializing - so of course if you’ve let your social skills atrophy and believe you have no chance to practice and improve them, that’ll be a problem.

Your third point sounds like it’s really just a combination of your first two points, discomfort with being open and honest with others, and discomfort with intentionally socializing with strangers. Of course if you avoid those things to spare yourself the discomfort, you’re also avoiding the opportunity to make friends.

The rest of it (testosterone? Co-ed?) sounds like bullshit to me.

What I hear you being concerned about is: people don’t see the value in leaving their comfort zone in order to pursue what they want. Those fears you mention about not being real, and not knowing how to socialize, and not being around others, and being forced to go to schools for women (??) just sound like irrational fears to me. None of that stuff will kill you.

If being a man is anything, then surely, being a man is facing those kinds of situations and saying “this makes me uncomfortable but it has to be done, I am afraid but I will do it anyway.”

For me, that is the male loneliness epidemic, if such a thing even exists - it’s the unwillingness of some men to face their fears and do what needs to be done to make a connection with another human being.

1. I've never worried about this.

2. I regularly chat with strangers and acquaintances IRL, though I don't feel it does much to relieve loneliness or cultivate deep friendships.

3. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I've ever worried about being "religious" about something nor judged someone for being so.

I would analyze my own life as follows: friendship requires time spent together. I'm a parent with a full time job in a car centric city, which keeps me pretty busy. I may get one day or night a week to go be social or do hobbies or go to a rotary club or whatever. That's a limited amount of time, so there's a corresponding limit on how many friendships I can realistically maintain. Let alone start new friendships.

So I feel like "having it all" is not realistic. Everything takes time: working out, eating healthy, having friends, having a family, having a job, having a community, writing hacker news comments, and on and on. Most data shows that Dads now spend significantly more time with their kids than those of previous generations. So I think for people of my cohort (millennial dads) its just a case where we traded time with friends for time with family.

That consistent, shared experience what I'm trying to build. But I can appreciate the feedback that it comes across as "auditioning" as that's not the point. The goal is to get people in the same place on a consistent basis. I also believe that consistently hanging out with people who are generally interesting / agreeable is a lot more important than matching humor or hobbies.

How would you position this with that goal in mind, especially considering that some filtering needs to take place since many people won't necessarily click like you say. I'm not going to find someone whose humor matches mine by dumb luck.

back in the long-long ago when i was online dating, the biggest boon it provided was that it gave you a space where you knew that it was okay flirt and that your intentions would not be misunderstood. you never had to guess if it would be a creepy time/place to flirt. you never had to worry about your intentions being misunderstood as "just being friendly". if somebody was on this app/website, they were looking to flirt and if you approached them everybody was clear that you were flirting.

doing something similar with friendship could be great.

Then do the more unique events on a different day (and let members suggest/ organise events too).

Friendship is repetition with the same group. Make it easy on people by meeting at the same time, maybe changing venue within a small area.

A group chat can be the clubhouse these days provided everyone meets regularly. I'd revoke membership from frequent no-shows. You want to limit groups to around 70 people too. Some research says above that cliques form.

Those all still exist, right? Or did they die off with the WWII generation?

Do you really develop lasting friendships on the course or in rec league sports? I just haven't had that experience and the popularity of those activities is sky rocketing (see: running clubs) while the problem doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Not only is a great show that touches on relationships and loneliness and modern alienation with a touch of magical realism and esoterica and alchemy but it focuses on a fraternal (in name only, women are members) order that your grandfather might have been a member of but have disappeared due to rising individualism, rising rents and displacement.

But there's no reason we couldn't start building them again. Not high end exclusive clubs like Soho House but just a place with books and a reasonable membership fee and a bar with cheap drinks for added revenue and occasional "open to the public" events.

There could be ones for software devs, ones focused on philosophy or great literature, ones for musicians or artists.

I've run the back-of-a-napkin numbers and even in expensive cities it doesn't seem impossible if your goal is to just break even and foster a community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2p1osv0jj8

They're really exclusive and they always have been. You and I would not get in, not now and not in the Victorian days. Even 'new money' is usually not ok. You really have to have gone to the right school and have the right family.

You just described a country club, right down to the innate classism and exclusivity rules.

Sports clubs are full of friends you can make. I'm close with alot of guys that I train with.

Try tennis, or lifting, or running, or golf. Do NOT go to DnD meetups and other low effort stuff. Exertion is what forms bonds.

Schultz envisioned Starbucks as a “third place” between home and work, fostering community and connection.

https://mulcahyconsultants.com/2023/12/14/howard-schultz-and...

At least you can/could play cards, converse with your fellows or some randoms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen%27s_clubs_in...

NYC and London are both having a bit of a renaissance of new clubs being founded, although most of them are coed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kkryT4nOwA - Michigan Automotive Relic Society

Me and my brother would go there after school to play some board games or dungeons and dragons during the weekends.

    - Freemasons
    - Odd Fellows
    - Fraternal Order of Eagles
    - Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks
    - Loyal Order of Moose

Each shed has its own policy and opening hours, best to look up your own local shed.

Without exception the people who were my closest friends in high school didn't really keep in touch when we all went off to college. The friendships I made in college did not persist after graduation. There's a guy at work I had lunch with almost every day for years, he retired and that was the last time I saw him. There was a group of fathers I was friendly with because our kids were playing ball together on the same team. The kids got older and went their separate ways, and we really don't see each other anymore.

Maintaining friendships takes work if circumstances don't assist.

Might be largely the same for women, but it seems to me they tend to make more of an effort to keep in touch and keep getting together.

This is all just my experience so I could be way off I guess.

In my experience, she lied to you.

To me this doesn't feel like some cheesy attempt to fix loneliness with tech. It’s just creating a space for something that’s clearly missing for a lot of people. Writing it off feels like part of the problem..

Happy to hear what you have to say - email is in my bio - although I doubt we'd have a meaningful conversation if you write me off as trying to sell something instead of taking the more gracious interpretation that I want to help other guys build strong friendships (and build them for myself).

Basically, the Friendship Paradox https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Friendship_paradox

Brah that's just your experience. The activities that you described as `socially acceptable stereotypes for males` haven't been popular for longer than any ancestor you've spoken to has been alive as a conspiracy theory.

Some people legitimately like these activities and have the same reaction to `improv, dnd, video games, rock-climbing` as you do to the stereotypically male activities

Consider also that men may not be willing to be themselves or be open in the presence of women. Are they not allowed to have a space for this?

A mixed gender social club inevitably gets raided by a load of dudebros who want to get laid. Keeping it men only prevents this and keeps it genuine. There's no reason women can't have something like this for themselves too you know.

I just love it when someone makes a description that is supposed to be off-putting but it's actually very sexy

Also I would KILL (well not really, but maybe seriously injure) for a yoga club (or even class) for middle-aged/older out of shape males _only_.

Let me also add, I'm a good 20 years older than you. Don't get too wired into a vision of "family" because if and when it does happen, it might not work out the way you imagine. It sure didn't for me.

Focus on being content and happy with yourself, and then worry about meeting someone.

You are! A more complete person than myself... and people won't leave me alone! When I hear "Loneliness Epidemic" I can't help but feel it's projection. They're lonely [or not making enough money] and want to convince me, too.

Your relationship search is a good example. People take self-exclusion personally. Why?

A bit of a tangent, but I'm disgusted with the prevalence of Alcohol. I've smoked with homeless people outside of concerts. I don't drink with my coworkers. You might be surprised which has been more of a problem.

For instance Men’s Sheds are a local effort with a thousand locations in the UK:

> Men’s Sheds encourage people to come together to make, repair and repurpose, supporting projects in their local communities. Improving wellbeing, reducing loneliness and combatting social isolation.

> Research gathered by the UKMSA Health and Wellbeing Survey, 2023, suggests 96% of Men’s Shed attendees feel less lonely since joining a Shed.

— https://menssheds.org.uk

Unfortunately, sometimes you get things like this happening:

> 'We put the pressure on to join Men in Sheds'

> The 74-year-old added: "Eventually they let us in, just one morning, eventually it became all the time, and now it's 50% women, and we absolutely love it."

> When the women were allowed into the workshop, members decided to keep a quiet room with a model railway display in it, just for men.

> "We [the men] escape now and again [to the quiet room] and have a chat and weigh things up."

— https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o

You'd meet up for dinner at a local place that was usually pretty good, with 2-3 other people, mostly tech-adjacent. Dinners were pretty polite, a little awkward, mildly stimulating, but I never made real relationships from it. Seems like the same idea has emerged with https://timeleft.com.

I don't know. It seems like the best way to make friends is to force people to do some other task next to each other a few days per week and let things form organically after they are around each other for a few years.

It's not only about one's own identity, but also the other participants.

This is still the norm in some places. When I was cycling through the Balkans, I was surprised how many people sit in public spaces, usually close to a kiosk, and play cards, throw dice, or just chatter

I’ve seen a number a theories on why these spaces declined:

1. Social media became more engaging than actual hangouts.

2. Rising levels of cultural and ethnic diversity lead to lower levels of social trust and a subsequent exit from public spaces (see e.g. Robert Putnam).

3. Independent bars and cafes got bought out by chains that favored higher rates of table turnover.

4. Civil Liberties movement made America into an open air insane asylum that normal people avoid venturing into.

5. Wages not keeping pace with inflation leaves less discretionary income available to pay for these spaces.

6. Decline of fraternal orders, friendly societies, and veteran clubhouses which were often the owners of the bars and / or cafes.

Place-based community is key, and can't be fixed with an app, or a service. Not long-term anyway.

Only then can your group start to develop favorite local places to hang around at.

> I bring this up because if you look at places that had lively social activities a few decades or a century ago, they were almost always a specific place.

Which is basically irrelevant, as you can come up with a similar example of pre-covid, during-covid and post-covid changes for how people hang out. People adapt pretty quickly.

> The neighborhood cafe where locals can stop by at any time and see other locals. The bar that everyone stops by after work twice a week.

I'm not sure these places really ever existed with such a stability as you describe outside of _really_ small towns. Like under 5000 pop towns.

You can totally pick a convenient cafe or pub and start hanging out there & inviting your existing friends. In time you'll start to recognize the other regulars, and you can make a point of chatting with them regularly (but not overstaying your welcome especially early on!), find out what they're interested in, offer & request small favors, crack jokes, eventually a bit of friendly competition, casual debate about mutual interests while intentionally trusting them enough to let them change your mind a little, etc -- all the things you'd normally do to build a social connection with another man. The upside and downside of a location-based approach is that it's a very weak filter. The other regulars may be people whom it's a real stretch to learn to connect with.

Location-agnostic social activities are typically focused on an activity or interest, e.g. people who want to hike, watch a movie, play a game or sport, do political activism, do community service, etc. So the social group comes with a filter attached that ensures you will have an easier time connecting with them. This is great! There are some downsides, too, but nothing serious.

Obviously, that's not an absolute; clearly people yearn for human contact. But as you point out, there was a time when people participated in social activities and public life with a much higher degree of physical presence than they do now, and the popularity of apps which sidestep this indicate to me that people also desire not to engage with others so proximately.

If you want to have relationships with people, go to where people actually are, buckle your belt, set aside your dread of rejection or indifference, and introduce yourself.

> 52% of Americans report feeling lonely while 47% report their relationships with others are not meaningful

> 55% of London residents say they feel lonely

> Social isolation is a problem in Europe: 18% of its citizens, the equivalent of 75 million people, are socially isolated

> 43% of those aged 17-25 feel lonely and less than half of them feel loved

> The suicide rate for persons aged 10–14 [..] nearly tripled from 2007 to 2017

https://www.rootsofloneliness.com/loneliness-statistics

> Thirty years ago, a majority of men (55 percent) reported having at least six close friends. Today, that number has been cut in half. Slightly more than one in four (27 percent) men have six or more close friends today. Fifteen percent of men have no close friendships at all, a fivefold increase since 1990

https://www.americansurveycenter.org/why-mens-social-circles...

That is exactly what the "male loneliness epidemic" is though, no? I don't know what definition you are using, but to me it's definitely the fact that we just don't have the time to go out and be social among other things, not that there aren't opportunities in the first place.

Like I couldn't avoid being in clubs without fully dropping my hobbies. Martial arts is a good example of a generally pretty social space that's obviously very welcoming to men (I've recently been doing historical longsword fencing and there are a wide variety of weirdos successfully socializing in there) but I also do birdwatching with a group and volunteer at a wildlife rehabilitator and both of those are also pretty social.

I haven't experienced what you described since I was socializing with programmers and scientists on the East Coast. Now most of the men I socialize with are artists (at least part time) and IT generalists in the Midwest.

But living in a city, I've had shopkeepers who regularly see me set aside items that they know I'll like and make sure nobody buys it before I get a chance. I have neighbors that greet me every time they see me. Some chat me up. I've stopped in random hole in the wall restaurants and had other regulars (who I didn't know) randomly give me free stuff to welcome me to the community. People were willing to welcome new people in.

Now I know people will want to rush in and say, "That's not a city experience. My small town has all that and your small town just sucked!" To which I say, okay. That's your anecdote against mine. But cities are just as welcoming as people think small towns are. If you choose to stay in your room and grimace every time you do happen to go outside, yeah, it's lonely. But it's very easy to turn that around in a city with potential friends everywhere you look. And having been to cities around the world, I see loads of people chatting and laughing outside.

I'm sad to say that last one is a direct quote. Hug your bros gentlemen.

https://www.niobe-way.com/

Now we have about 40 members (for a town of 500, that's pretty damn good).

We get together to do volunteer and fund raising events. But mostly we meet twice a month to eat supper and bullshit/play cards/pool/darts.

It's awesome.

I think we're going to bring back the formal dances they used to have in the 40's-60's. I think that would be fun.

Little about me just for kicks - I'm early 30s, married, recently moved to Boston with a great tech job and a really solid group of friends from college that I unfortunately don't live close to anymore. I've made some good friends since moving here but it has all been through someone taking a herculean level of initiative to plan things and invite people to stuff. I want to lower that friction to have consistent IRL interactions with interesting people - whoever those people might be for a given person.

For one, bouldering is not great if you have a fear of heights or maybe some mobility issues due to a previous injury. It's then a massively painful and risky chore and not a pleasurable activity but requires you to be at 100% health physically and mentally in order to do anything beyond kiddy walls. Otherwise you can fall and injure yourself pretty badly. Granted, that's mostly on you, not the sport but still, it's not a universally approachable sport by everyone by any stretch. At least I never gotten to enjoy it no matter how much I forced myself to based on the hype of those around me and the internet.

> with no inherit social hierarchy

Not 100% true. This might be your conscious way of wanting to see things, but in reality, all sports especially in male groups are inherently competitive where a clear hierarchy gets formed which leads to either admiration or repulsion based on abilities and results, even if it's just subconsciously, but it is there and everyone is aware of it even if we choose to ignore it for the sake of equality and inclusion.

IMHO, team sports like football, handball, volleyball, tennis, ping-pong, various martial arts etc are far better for socializing because you actually have to partner with others and play against others, versus solitary like bouldering.

> I’d highly recommend going on your own as you will find opportunities to meet new people, and others will talk to you

I feel like this take is 100% based on regional social customs of where you live, and not on the sport. This might be my experience of the German speaking country I moved to but from the locals, nobody here ever starts making conversation to you randomly. People tend to go with their social group and not interact with strangers, while those who go alone tend to want to be left alone to practice and not get interrupted with small talk by other who are there to make friends.

Just like the gym, it's definitely not a way to make friends here, since people got here to work out, not have conversations with strangers.

Headphones for any sort of climbing - please dont do that and politely advise others to refrain from use while climbing, thats 1) frowned upon massively in whole community; 2) increases risk of something bad happening; 3) just a bit too arrogant, one doesnt do that in ie restaurant neither

We have so little in common interest wise, but we bonded over just being in the same place repeatedly. I'm not in contact with anyone from my engineering program. That says a lot to me about shared interests as a (non-)driver of lasting friendships compared to shared EXPERIENCE, but I'm just one person.

Obviously "frat culture" has an extreme negative connotation, but I will just say that not every fraternity is full of gym bros... they exist for every type of guy and I truly think the socially awkward guys I know who joined fraternities made significantly more meaningful relationship than the cool, good-looking guys who didn't.