Finnegan’s Wake on the other hand… bailed after three pages.
I came to the conclusion that while I didn't necessarily _like it_ per se, I had to acknowledge how absurdly talented Joyce was, and that there was some justification for being in the top books list. My feeling was that the lack of enjoyment was a fault of the book but more that I didn't have the background to appreciate it. Though there were also some chapters where most people agree Joyce was just trying too hard and it shows.
I had the same sensation when I listened to Fiona Shaw performing The Waste Land by T. S. Eliot, who breathes completely new life into it: https://youtu.be/lPB_17rbNXk?si=IBKeyTnu0KCZ2r_U. (She's an amazing actress, truly one of the greats.) The poem is supposed to many types of voices talking, so you lose a lot of meaning if you just read it like a poem (even T. S. Eliot himself reads it quite poorly!).
For those of you who don't recognize her name, she's Maarva in Andor, and some minor character (I don't remember) in the Harry Potter films - neither of which roles get even close to challenging her range and power.
It definitely repays sustained attention, if literary fiction is your jam.
https://www.rte.ie/culture/2025/0527/1146705-listen-ulysses-...
I will have to give Vineland and Inherent Vice a shot. Gravity's Rainbow is just a lost cause for me with the size let alone the content.
It's meant as pure lyrical poetry. Reading it aloud is like dancing with your tongue instead of feet.
Have you done that successfully for any book? I've never tried, but it seems likely to me to be very difficult, unless you happen to read at exactly the narrator's pace.
I may be protesting too much, since, as I say, I've never tried it. But this seems like a solution to the problem where the narrator's reading speed is a fixed percentage of your reading speed, whereas I have in mind the way that I read, which is that I might go very quickly through some sections that don't need or to which I don't want to pay detailed attention, and then slow way down in the more difficult sections. I think it is fairly rare for audiobook narrators to approach the book this way (but maybe they do it so seamlessly I don't notice?).
I'm not sure about YT, but my podcast app allows for me to map the left earbud's +/- buttons for volume and the right earbud's for playback speed. I can go slower or faster depending on how much I want to listen to a section. What I can't do is map a rewind button, which can be tough if I fast forward through something and miss and want to go back.
Most of Bill's work are on YT, in full, for free anyways. So you can find a 'good' one and read along, getting the nuances in performance too.
LibreVox has a lot of good recordings of older works too (not just plays), if you're okay with amateurs/volunteers reading things.
But neither perspective is "bizarre" or "surreal", just different takes.
Wiktionary (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/poetry) tells me that its etymology is through "poet," which in turn means "author" or "maker," and that its meaning is "Literature composed in verse or language exhibiting conscious attention to patterns and rhythm." Neither of those things uniquely privileges its spoken experience. But it doesn't really matter what the etymology or meaning of the word is when discussing the best way to enjoy it, and it's at best useless to try to tell someone else that they're enjoying it wrong.
The patterns and rhythm only exist when spoken.
Pattern can definitely exist in writing without being spoken. (Sometimes only in writing, and not when spoken; see, for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_poetry.) I would argue that rhythm can as well, though that's less of a slam dunk.
Poetry in some languages and traditions is at least as visual as it is oral/verbal. Calligraphy is tightly bound to some poetic traditions. In others, the form of a poem is chiefly or entirely calligraphic, not oral, acoustic, or rhythmic.
Even if we restrict ourselves to Western Anglophone poetry of the past 100 years, you'll find that the sound of poetry itself has changed drastically. Find a recording of someone reading an English-language poem in the early 20th century. You'll likely find its sound quite alien, not just because of the antiquated pronunciation but because there's a strong element of something like chant -- and delivery is far more affected than it would be today. I'm not so sure the sound of poetry for you would sound at all like poetry to, I don't know, Yeats or Kipling.
In turn, poetry in Greece and Rome was so tightly coupled to music that it would be more correct to say that poetry in these civilizations was defined by its characteristics when sung, not spoken. Hence in Homer and Classical Greek the word "aoidos," singer, is frequently used of poets.
[1] https://www.rte.ie/culture/2025/0527/1146705-listen-ulysses-...
No high schooler or undergrad is going to understand a book that talks about being trapped in a life they don't enjoy by the choices they've made that's meant for a reader in their 40s.
Really, same thing goes for most other disciplines. So many kids learn 4 years of algebra without having the slightest clue that this all is building to something called "Calculus" that they don't understand what it is.
That specifically at least could be improved greatly by just reworking classes to include plenty of hands-on practical application so it’s not so abstract. The pervasive thought during that period of my life was, “why am I learning this” and nobody wanted to bother answering except with the non-answer, “you might need it someday.”
Every class should start with a why~!
Another related mistake educators make: assigning material that could be relevant or interesting to high school students, but then not giving them the sorts of experiences that will make it so. I was a nerd (and, in fact, skipped high school English), so when my classmates were reading Chaucer and were (predictably) bored to tears by The Knight's Tale (it's all about Virtue, right?), I led an impromptu study hall session on The Miller's Tale (it's a long series of scatalogical jokes), and what do you know?, they a) enjoyed it, and b) were more willing and able to give The Knight's Tale a go.
Don't even get me started on reading Shakespeare without, you know, experiencing it as a play first (or, indeed, ever).
(I'm not familiar with We Do Not Part; thanks for the recommendation. I love all of the other authors you mention, and will check Han Kang out.)
The actors are doing so much interpretation work for you. It is an enormous effort. Let them.
There is much value in reading Shakespeare, but you have to learn how, and you won't get there just by having an unabridged text thrown at you.
https://booktalkandmore.blogspot.com/2011/03/shakespeare-ret...
Everything comes together brilliantly in this adaptation, which remains remarkably - and surprisingly, perhaps - true to the source material, ...Students need to experience plays the way they're meant to be experienced: as plays. Live events, with human interaction at their heart. Anything else is... Missing the point.
By the way, I spent the first two or three years of my professional career performing school-tour Shakespeare. That was a joy. Hard graft: sometimes three shows in a day, along with loading and unloading the van in between, but my goodness it was rewarding. Great training, too. We'd do a show in the morning for twenty people in a library, and then in the afternoon in a 2,000 seat auditorium. You had to learn quickly how to modulate your performance, and what choices land with what kinds of audience.
But... that's not something they should think. It's not something that's true. You learn algebra to solve certain types of problems. You learn calculus to solve other types of problems.
So many high school students tragically treat it as a litmus test, bounce off it and as a result suspend their dreams of higher education. It is the epitome of sacrificing education for occupational goals. If you don't intend to pursue applied science it is almost worthless forced masochism.
Disclaimer: I have a bachelors in pure mathematics.
The relationships between area and volume of various objects I spent geometry trying to understand make much sense as integrals.
Trig, logarithms, exponentials, infinite series, they all come into themselves when you start applying them to analysis. It just all sorta clicks once you start to thread them together.
Surely it wasn't my fault for being so dense. Age was, of course, mostly responsible. But probably also just poor instruction - surely if a teacher had actually explained this, it would have gone a long way to opening my mind and likely re-orienting my life.
Likewise with most other subjects - I spun my wheels learning French from age 10-15, because it was just an exercise in memorization rather than understanding. I learned Spanish in my 30s without even "studying", just by virtue of better understanding grammar at that point, and just focusing on trying to express ideas rather than worry about conjugations, spelling etc...
The school system really does not do a good job.
A lot of school asigned reading cements the idea that someone just doesn't like books because, well, they haven't ever liked anything they were told to read.
Encouraging people to read period should be the first goal with yound adults, and if they want to read something that academics sneer at then that's totally fine. Reading any sort of book has benefits, and those who develop a love for it will naturally seek out more challening and interesting books when they are ready for them.
I disagree. If you read a book first, it can inform you as you go through your life experiences, and it can potentially have far more value to the student that way. The mistake in teaching these books in school is that the teaching is generally done with the assumption that students have already had those life experiences, making it a complete waste of everyone's time. At least that was how it was taught when I was in school.
I'm actually thinking of movies though. I watched Casablanca in my early 20s and it did nothing for me. I watched it again in my 50s and cried so hard my whole body shook. The difference was life experience. I knew what they were giving up. Something I had no experience with in my early 20s
I suspect some books have a similar issue.
(This is far-and-away the best way to read Ulysses, FWIW)
If you just wanted to learn Java, there are faster and cheaper methods.
America has a possibly fatal case of capitalism.
I disagree, a book like Finnegan's Wake has a lot in common with Java. Think about a clean, clearly written book that tries to craft an enjoyable narrative, such as Snow Crash, that's the python of books. Now a book like Finnegan's wake, the narrative is completely impenetrable, instead the author focuses on other things like wordplay, sound play, rhythm, etc. In the same way, Java isn't so much about clearly and cleanly stating an algorithm, but more focused on the rules and regulations, terminology, the paperwork and formalities of programming. In this regard Java is more analogous to a legal tax code, but Finnegan's Wake is a good foundation for either.
I think studying liberal arts after having life experience is so much more rewarding — not to mention affordable (assuming you’ve done something with your life).
The payoff of studying liberal arts in your 20s is very different from when you’re in your 40s (my age). The context is much more salient and the practical applications become more visible.
Morris Chang (chairman of TSMC) once wanted to be a literature major and he has mentioned how studying Shakespeare has helped him to understand human behavior and the human condition.
Although a lot of that reading was skimming haha. I think that's good for a first reading though. You get a really good idea of the overall pacing and chapter-to-chapter variety that way.
That’s my first reading of your comment, but I don’t think it’s correct, because it’s just such a dumb thing to say.
It’s a thread about the book Ulysses. You don’t like the book, go to a different thread.
I'm on my 4th attempt at Ulysses. It's just two dense. Too many niche references that only an educated early 20th century Irish citizen would understand.
[1] Ulysses took place all on June 16th 1904. Most of the book is stream of consciousness from Leopold Bloom. Bloom's Day is now a celebration of Joyce in Ireland
Presumably there are dozens of companion references to explain those. Can anyone recommend some?
https://bookshop.org/p/books/ulysses-annotated-revised-and-e...
But also the free (online) Joyce Project with hyperlinked annotations:
http://m.joyceproject.com/chapters/telem.html
I wish I'd bought this version when It came out. It's pretty expensive now.
https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-cambridge-ulysses-the-1922-...
And I cannot recommend Frank Delaney's Re: Joyce podcast enough, sadly he passed away before completing the project
Try reading just one copy :)
What helped for me is first reading A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, which is kind of like an easier version of the same style that introduces some of the characters in Ulysses. And then following along on ulyssesguide.com when I was reading it. Some of the parts (the fake quasi latin) are extra difficult and it helps to have a guide so you don't get completely lost as to what's going on.
I tried it again aged 38 and I found it flowed much more easily. The protagonist Leopold Bloom, who I remembered as an old man from earlier attempts, was relatable. It turns out Bloom is exactly 38.
I find side notes too disruptive when reading so my crutch for the middle was to skim a short chapter summary before a starting each new chapter. This let me enjoy the dreamlike qualities of the text without needing to catch every reference.
It was quite a challenge writing the term paper (which was most of the grade) knowing it would be evaluated by this professor. My attempts were mediocre and in exchange I received a well deserved mediocre grade (some sort of "B") in the class (sort of a "Ain't that cute that uqual tried so hard and wrote so many pages of related but nonsensical BS but at least he came to class" grade).
It's safe to say that I will NEVER again read Ulysses!
Moby Dick because it's not just a book about whaling, it's a book about world philosophy with crazy tangents.
Fire Upon the Deep because it is the best representation of post-singularity technological implications. Was a big inspiration for me going into machine learning and biology.
On a more positive note I read Catch 22 when I was about 13 or so and I think that gave me some inkling that the world wasn't really going to make much sense!
told you I'd read it!
Virginia Woolf's Mrs Dalloway makes for a nice stream of consciousness study in contrast.
But when I attended the first day, I learned that Gatech's online registration system had truncated the class title. The full title was "Modern Authors: James Joyce", and I was the only engineering student in a semester long class about James Joyce, which I had to take it and pass in order to graduate.
It was... pretty good actually.
Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man was enjoyable, as were his short stories. His style was unlike anything I had read before and it was musical in a way. However, I found Ulysses impenetrable: It rambled, and was difficult to understand what was even being described in the text, let alone the significance of it. Mostly it was just strange. Thankfully the majority of your grade was based participating in class discussion. Talking about it, seeing how confused everyone else was, and trying to make sense of it all together was a fun way to spend an afternoon in Skiles.
If text can make you gag with revulsion, it is, by definition, good communication.
There are explanatory notes, but reading them precludes immersion, and not reading them precludes comprehension.
I crave pace, parsability, and clear purpose.
Then maybe read Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man. A really great semi-autobiographical work.
At that point you’ve probably made your mind up one way or the other about whether you like Joyce, so then if you feel like it, go read Ulysses and/or Finnegan’s Wake if you want to. But don’t do it because you think it will impress anyone or anything like that. Just read it if you want to. Before you read Ulysses, I would personally recommend reading a good modern version of Homer[1] because that’s just a great experience anyway and plenty of people don’t know the original story and so don’t understand the relevance of the title and are kind of lost before they even get started.
[1] eg I’ve heard very good things about the Mendelsohn translation https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/O/bo243090... . I heard some excerpts from Seamus Heaney’s version read out and they were amazing and lyrical as you might expect but probably more “poetic” than most people might care for if they’re not already Heaney fans. I read an older translation but I can’t dig it out right now.
sys32768•7mo ago