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Show HN: Simple wrapper for Chrome's built-in local LLM (Gemini Nano)

https://github.com/kstonekuan/simple-chromium-ai
1•kstonekuan•53s ago•0 comments

Lessons from 863 episodes of This American Life

https://indarktrees.com/misc/tal/
1•cryzinger•53s ago•0 comments

Study detects AI fingerprints in scientific papers

https://phys.org/news/2025-07-massive-ai-fingerprints-millions-scientific.html
1•giuliomagnifico•1m ago•0 comments

Unsoundness and accidental features in the [target_feature] attribute

https://predr.ag/blog/unsoundness-and-accidental-features-in-target-feature/
1•brson•2m ago•0 comments

Augmenting Long-Term Memory

https://augmentingcognition.com/ltm.html
1•gneray•2m ago•0 comments

My Two and a Half Years at TikTok E-Commerce in the US: Hope to Disillusion

https://dilemmaworks.substack.com/p/special-submission-my-two-and-a-half
1•dworks•7m ago•0 comments

Fake-will fraudsters steal millions from the dead

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx2390x51zqo
2•sarreph•9m ago•0 comments

Croatian right-wing singer and fans perform pro-Nazi salute at concert

https://www.nbcnews.com/world/europe/croatian-right-wing-singer-marko-perkovic-fans-perform-nazi-salute-mas-rcna217100
2•Michelangelo11•9m ago•0 comments

Why are there no good dinosaur films?

https://briannazigler.substack.com/p/why-are-there-no-good-dinosaur-films
1•bookofjoe•14m ago•0 comments

Cool People [pdf]

https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/xge-xge0001799.pdf
1•ilamont•15m ago•0 comments

30 Years of JavaScript: 10 Milestones That Changed the Web

https://thenewstack.io/30-years-of-javascript-10-milestones-that-changed-the-web/
2•maxloh•19m ago•1 comments

What Was the Turbo Button on Old '90s PC for and Why Don't We Have It Anymore?

https://www.slashgear.com/1902184/what-is-turbo-button-old-90s-pc-for/
3•Bluestein•20m ago•0 comments

Conventional Commits makes me sad

https://srazkvt.codeberg.page/posts/2025-07-06-conventional-commits-makes-me-sad.html
2•todsacerdoti•23m ago•0 comments

TikTok building new version of app ahead of expected US sale

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/tiktok-building-new-version-app-ahead-expected-us-sale-information-reports-2025-07-06/
3•thm•24m ago•0 comments

'Shit in, shit out', AI is coming for agriculture, but farmers aren’t convinced

https://theconversation.com/shit-in-shit-out-ai-is-coming-for-agriculture-but-farmers-arent-convinced-259997
1•lr0•25m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Autoresume – OpenSource, Resume Builder and TeX Editor with AI Features

https://github.com/aadya940/autoresume
2•aadyachinubhai•28m ago•0 comments

Was the "Your Brain on ChatGPT" paper "engineered to mislead AI"?

https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/q/59020/69248
1•lr0•28m ago•0 comments

opencode: AI coding agent, built for the terminal

https://github.com/sst/opencode
2•indigodaddy•28m ago•0 comments

Google's brief effort building smartphones in Texas 12 years ago

https://fortune.com/2025/07/05/what-apple-trump-can-learn-google-motorola-moto-x-made-in-america-smartphone/
1•thm•28m ago•0 comments

How Brex is keeping up with AI by embracing the 'messiness'

https://techcrunch.com/2025/07/06/how-brex-is-keeping-up-with-ai-by-embracing-the-messiness/
1•rntn•31m ago•0 comments

What is OpenTelemetry? [a basic guide]

https://signoz.io/blog/what-is-opentelemetry/
1•Bogdanp•31m ago•0 comments

Layers of Deceit (2012)

https://slate.com/human-interest/2012/05/how-to-cook-onions-why-recipe-writers-lie-and-lie-about-how-long-they-take-to-caramelize.html
1•Tomte•32m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Refractive JavaScript Glass

https://real-glass.vercel.app/
1•explosion-s•33m ago•1 comments

Show HN: Microwave Kittens

https://microwavekittens.com/
2•ipogrjegiorejkf•34m ago•0 comments

Usability barriers for liquid types [pdf]

https://catarinagamboa.github.io/papers/pre_print_barriers_liquid_types.pdf
2•azhenley•38m ago•0 comments

An implementation of Raft Consensus Algorithm in Zig

https://github.com/cocky-punch/raft
3•la_mezcla•41m ago•0 comments

Collatz's Ant and Σ(n)

https://gbragafibra.github.io/2025/07/06/collatz_ant5.html
2•Fibra•42m ago•0 comments

Show HN: ARZY-G – A token born from AI-verified usefulness (not mined or bought)

1•arzykul•45m ago•0 comments

Remaking Celeste's Lighting (2017)

https://noelberry.ca/posts/celeste_lighting/
2•PaulHoule•48m ago•0 comments

Transposed Letter Effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transposed_letter_effect
4•burstoflight•49m ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

Stop killing games and the industry response

https://blog.kronis.dev/blog/stop-killing-games
104•LorenDB•5h ago

Comments

benoau•3h ago
Predictable response, they'd rather have complete autonomy to decide what they will do and be the sole arbiter of consumers' rights, while gaming history disintegrates thanks to the double-tap of online-dependency shutdowns and marketplaces that make it a TOS violation to leave your library to someone.
jt2190•3h ago
> Even the singleplayer components [of Ubisoft’s “The Crew (2014) were unusable when the servers were turned off]: [Y]ou just wanting to race around cars in a world with you and other NPCs in it, is no longer viable. Essentially, you didn't "buy" the game, but in a sense were "renting" it for an indeterminate amount of time, a lease that expired due to the publishers and developers no longer wanting to provide that service for you.

Probably true! There is likely some additional revenue that the publisher gets from running servers, even for single-player mode. The question then is what will change in these games if that revenue is no longer there to fund them? Will the quality be lower? Will the price be higher? Will the publishers release new games less frequently? Maybe they just don’t make single-player games anymore?

mtsr•3h ago
Honestly? I think we can do without these predatory practices even at the cost of some games.

And I somehow doubt there’s revenue to make off these single player games being online dependent, because the most probable ways simply wouldn’t fly in Europe due to consumer protections.

Most likely it’s just “anti-piracy” or something like that.

rcxdude•2h ago
Maybe they just stop adding hard requirements for online connectivity to their single-players games, which is something which takes more effort to do in the first place?
jt2190•2h ago
I worry that they just stop completely shipong single-player mode as that seems easiest.
pyrale•2h ago
That is fine. Other companies will fill that void. There are plenty of small indy companies that make great single-player games, that could benefit from the attention.
dragonmost•1h ago
This might happen to so extent but a big part of the market is single player games, so those companies would also lose a large portion of their profit
jt2190•7m ago
Ok, but the context of the article (which I quoted) is multi player games with a single player mode. Of course single player games don’t need and often don’t have a server, so whether or not they make up a large part of the market is irrelevant here.
umvi•3h ago
Vote with your wallet, there are thousands of games that don't do shady stuff.
elitepleb•2h ago
There's fewer games to vote on every year, as conglomerates like Microsoft out vote your wallet a billion times over every time they buy a game studio to embrace, extend and then extinguish.
ysavir•2h ago
If looking at AAA publishers, maybe. The indie game scene continues to pump out games, some good, some bad, at half or less of cost of the AAA games. They won't be as polished, but many still deliver an exceptional experience.
mouse_•2h ago
there are more games than ever, it's just that microsoft, ubisoft, etc are spending billions on actual psychologists to ensure the populace remains apathetic towards them.

I don't care how smart you are, how much self control you have, whatever, in the face of billions of dollars, voting with your wallet does not stand a chance. The house always wins.

throw10920•1h ago
Huh, that's funny, I've never bought a Ubisoft game. I guess I'm the first person ever who's resistant to those psychologists.
bluefirebrand•2h ago
Yup

Something I am noticing more and more is how stagnant the North American game industry is. Meanwhile Europe and Japan are still killing it

Larian with BG3 - Europe Cd Projekt with Witcher and Cyberpunk - Europe

Nintendo rocking on as normal Monster hunter wilds and the RE remakes? Capcom, Japan

Elden Ring and Nightreign. FromSoft, Japan

Helldivers 2. Arrowhead Studios, Sweden

Kingdom Come Deliverance 2. Warhorse Studios, Czech

I cannot remember the last time I bought a new game and had a blast with it from a North American studio. Certainly not a AAA studio anyways

phoronixrly•2h ago
You mean you're not a fan of the latest reskin of CoD, or the latest reskin of CS with even more loot boxes?
zamalek•2h ago
> Certainly not a AAA studio anyways

Almost every time I have spent more than $35 on a game in the past year I have wound up regretting it. It seems as though the quality of games typically increases til that point (exceptions exist, Terraria) and then declines sharply (again, exceptions exist). It has turned out to be a useful signal to be way more careful about a purchase for me.

simion314•2h ago
>Vote with your wallet

I bought Minecraft from Mojang, years later I am forced to setup a Microsoft account to play the game, or risk downloading a cracked version. They did not offer a refund. Minecraft is a video game where you need to login even if you do not play online. (maybe things changed , I think this MS account thing was a few years back, it worked for my account but I read of people having big issues because some MS assholes ahd to force the Java edition players to use an MS account)

This behaviour should not be legal.

rcxdude•2h ago
Minecraft is at least reasonably easy to play offline, the account mostly only stores your skins. That said, it may require a third-party launcher now.
dragonmost•1h ago
But you won't be able to access some public servers for a game you paid for without the account.
netr0ute•2h ago
I don't remember this being the case, you could reuse your old MC purchase when they made the transition over.
areyourllySorry•2h ago
the mojang to minecraft.net transition, yeah. the minecraft.net to microsoft transition, no. https://youtu.be/rUFDRAEducI
throw10920•1h ago
I was forced to not only setup a Microsoft account, but hand over my phone number - after creating an account without a phone number and transferring my Minecraft license over, they immediately locked my account.

Someone at Microsoft should go to jail for this.

josephg•2h ago
Its not always obvious when you buy them which games will still be around a few years later.

Some singleplayer titles from just a few years ago are no longer playable. (Hello, Ubisoft). Meanwhile there are MMOs like guild wars 1, released 20 years ago, still playable today.

ryukafalz•2h ago
Right, exactly. Game companies don't advertise when you buy a game that its single-player features will only work as long as the servers stay up. I'm sure they don't want to. But if players aren't made aware of that fact then it's hard for them to make informed purchasing decisions.
yakattak•2h ago
Clair Obscur: Expedition 33 was such a breath of fresh air in this regard. If you just want a reasonably priced, good game with no shady stuff but still that AA (arguably AAA) experience I can’t recommend it enough.
willis936•2h ago
And people are. Games sales are slumping in response to a decade of predatory dark patterns and simply not giving the audience what they're asking for.

Just keeping the games playable is a singular issue and in the noise. It's a good issue to single out for regulation.

perching_aix•2h ago
Or just sign the initiative, so that you maybe don't have to abstain to achieve this goal? I don't understand this mentality.
thrance•2h ago
Look where decades of "voting with our wallets" led us. How some people can still utter that sentence unironically is beyond me at this point.
throw10920•1h ago
Your claim that there has been "decades of voting with our wallets" is laughable. Nobody I know who plays games decides to buy them or not based on ideological reasons - they just buy the things that are popular or that their friends play. There's extremely little engagement on these issues.
skotobaza•1h ago
But it's true. Most people pay for what's being currently promoted. So "voting with wallet" doesn't really work, because you will be outvoted by majority of people who don't know what they're getting into. That's why gacha games and other lootbox-heavy ones are most profitable. This is where "vote with your wallet" brought us.
throw10920•53m ago
You're confused about the meaning of "voting with your wallet".

> But it's true.

It's not - you're talking about something else entirely. When @umvi says "vote with your wallet" they mean buy things whose values you support. You, and GP @thrance, are not describing that - you're describing people buying things on autopilot without respect to values - the exact opposite. So, no, we haven't had decades of "unsuccessful voting with your wallet" because consumers have been mentally checked out for decades.

> So "voting with wallet" doesn't really work, because you will be outvoted by majority of people who don't know what they're getting into

That's literally how normal democracy works - if the majority of the populace is uninformed, then they'll vote in an uninformed way, and the solution is for them to get informed and start doing research and making conscious decisions. That's what @umvi means when they say "vote with your wallet." - active participation instead of passive existence.

You're confusing the lack of active participation with the presence of it.

tmtvl•33m ago
The problem with democracy: people on average have average intelligence and you don't solve difficult problems with average intelligence. That being said, it's still better than anything else we've tried.
throw10920•18m ago
Right - I'm also hand-waving a bit here and lumping democratic republics in with "true democracies" for the sake of simplicity, but you're absolutely correct.
skotobaza•33m ago
>You're confused about the meaning of "voting with your wallet".

>You're confusing the lack of active participation with the presence of it.

Probably.

>you're describing people buying things on autopilot without respect to values

That is probably where I am confused - I'm not sure that people "do not respect the values". It's either that they have values, but those values are imposed, or it's what you describe, that people just don't think deeply about it. And from my personal experience I really can't tell. But when I read the web, everyone apparently figured it out, and do indeed consciously decide.

thrance•24m ago
Then why do you call it "vote with your wallet" and not "buy stuff you like"? If you don't intend for your purchase to weigh in on anything, why do you call it "voting"?

If that's truly what you mean by "vote with your wallet", then yeah, we're on the same page. I almost only play solo games, most of them indie.

drwiggly•52m ago
Voting with your wallet does work, possibly others don't share in your tastes.
skotobaza•28m ago
It would be fair, but when you go online, everyone (and I mean everyone) shares their distaste for modern gaming industry and its practices. Yet, those practices still bring the most money to this day. So does it mean that people go against their principles? Or is it just another "vocal minority" situation?
thrance•35m ago
You proved my point: "voting with your wallet" will never work. DLCs, microtransactions, lootboxes... They all got normalized alarmingly quickly, despite numerous calls to "vote with your wallets" every single times. We need regulations, isolated individuals have no power against a system built to extract the most out of them.
throw10920•5m ago
> You proved my point: "voting with your wallet" will never work. DLCs, microtransactions, lootboxes... They all got normalized alarmingly quickly, despite numerous calls to "vote with your wallets" every single times.

Factually incorrect. There are numerous instances of consumers complaining, leaving bad reviews on Steam, refunding games, or stopping buying games because of their values, and the studios/producers actually changed the thing. Helldivers 2's mandatory PSN account is one of the most recent instances of that happening.

Factually, consumers will band together to take collective action, and when they do, there are positive effects. The problem is apathy, not lack of power.

> We need regulations, isolated individuals have no power against a system built to extract the most out of them

This is literally self-contradictory. If individuals can't "vote with their wallets" to achieve change (which, as I described above, empirically does happen), then individuals in a democracy also can't vote to enact their will on the system - and those regulators are appointed by those elected representatives.

Make up your mind - does voting work, or does it not?

qoez•2h ago
> the initiative seeks to prevent the remote disabling of videogames by the publishers

Nice way to make publishers stop making multiplayer services available to the EU in the first place because deactivating it is illegal when costs outweigh profits.

phoronixrly•2h ago
Sounds good to me! EU gamers will not be taken advantage of.
pjmlp•2h ago
Great, maybe it will foster innovation among indie studios.
pyrale•2h ago
I'm fine with that. Others will come and fill the void.
akimbostrawman•2h ago
this has already been addressed but just for you.

they won't leave the biggest global market with almost 500 million potential buyers because they can't rug pull anymore, even if they somehow suddenly don't like money anymore others will gladly take there place.

the same "argument" has been thrown at GDPR which now every single corporation follows.

fidotron•2h ago
If this happened all multiplayer titles would turn F2P.

People do not appreciate quite what a narrow path has to be walked by games from an IP standpoint. Code libraries, licensed property, per platform (and platform category) restrictions, general IP restrictions (not showing vehicles being damaged, or UI overlays on certain parts of licensed objects) and so on. This is why in the recent ROG Ally announcement Microsoft could not say all XBox games will run on it, because if it's a PC it's not a console, so various games will not be allowed to be sold on it as those contributing IP rights will have been split up separately.

Simply pretending these very real concerns don't exist is nonsense land. You want games with real vehicles or licensed music? This is what you have to deal with. At least these days they have learned to license music for longer than used to be the case.

tetris11•2h ago
how did they do it in the past? If I can put my Tony Hawks cd from the PS2 into a cd player and enjoy all the DRM music, what changed between now and then?

If music labels refuse to license out their songs like that, then if this law passes, they're going to have to suck it up and play nice again, else lose customers/publishers.

toast0•1h ago
Most of that era consoles would load level data from the CD, and then play the music as cd-da audio. There was no DRM on the music, perhaps because nobody thought of it, but more likely because there wasn't quite enough computing power to do it. PS2 games could be on CD or DVD and could have had cd quality music as a data file reasonably, but PS1 probably not, and cross platform games likely would use cd audio because it's easy.

The choice for licensors was to have the music in the game and available on the cd or not.

For a modern release, DRM music tracks that only play in the game is an option.

We've also learned that the licenses are (or were) often time limited... The publisher can't make new copies after some time, without getting a new license for the audio. Sometimes that's also related to a different format.

nebulous1•2h ago
The issue with most of what you're saying here is that all of that works the way it does because it can, not because it has to. Code libraries, for example, may essentially prohibit what is being requested by SKG because they can. However, if they couldn't then they wouldn't. The companies selling the libraries aren't going to simply shut up shop.

Which is just to say, if there's money to be made then businesses will do so within the regulatory framework.

tgsovlerkhgsel•2h ago
This is part of the beauty of such a thing being a law.

If your code library, licensed property etc. does not allow companies to comply with the law, then its value is zero and you won't be able to sell it. So suddenly, all providers of such libraries etc. have to make this possible.

zamalek•2h ago
These concerns have been raised and addressed. Firstly, I am not sure how cars getting damaged means that multiplayer games have to become F2P - but that's not steelmanning your argument.

One of the major concerns raised has been middle are: components that developers purchase and use in their server implementation. This is often the largest hurdle to many pro-consumer outcomes: the developers can't share anything related because they don't own it.

The most likely outcome after sensible laws are passed is that the industry evolves just as it did with GDPR. Developers will look to other middlewares that are SKG compliant.

Failing that, gamers have routinely shown that they are capable of clean room implementations of server software (WoW and Genshin Impact) - all that needs be done is the client being released with all server auth disabled and some way to specify the server to use. Developers might even be required to provide basic protocol specifications. Essentially, repair it yourself instructions.

This strawman argument you have provided is exactly the same one used by Pirate Software. It relies on a highly specific interpretation of the initiative. The initiative calls for "reasonably playable state," which can have a vast number of outcomes that are different to the single one that you have chosen.

And if the cars do prohibit a game from addressing server concerns and remaining in a reasonably playable state, remove them. The game will continue to be reasonably playable following that.

tikhonj•2h ago
Those are all just decisions the companies made. For future games, the game developers and the companies licensing IP can simply make different decisions. If a large market like the EU creates strong incentives for them, they will make different decisions.

Now, this is not necessarily the case for existing games. Revisiting existing licensing deals can be needlessly difficult. But I'm assuming the proposed regulations will only apply to new games rather than trying to force changes retroactively.

ungreased0675•2h ago
How things are doesn’t prevent how things could be. Studios could negotiate better licensing deals.
josephg•2h ago
All of those things are concerns. But if video game publishers really needed to figure this stuff out in order to sell units, they would. Contracts would change. But they'd still get signed. Everyone wants money too much. The only hard part is trying to fix this stuff for games which have already signed on the dotted line. Or games which have shipped and disbanded their software teams.

But even then, can't they just opensource what they're allowed to? Even if it doesn't build, it wouldn't take the community long to rip out FMOD or whatever and replace it with working alternatives. Or submit a final patch which removed the part where games phone home before launching in singleplayer mode. Why would that interfere with the licence for 3rd party IP?

IMO if I'm "buying" the game, you can't also remotely disable the thing I bought. (And "buy" is the word they all use!). If you want to remotely disable the game at some point in the future, I'm fine with that so long as they list it very explicitly and loudly on the box. "THIS GAME ONLY PLAYABLE UNTIL 2030". Games publishers need to start being honest and upfront about what we're paying for. Its not an unreasonable ask.

skotobaza•1h ago
> You want games with real vehicles or licensed music?

Not really if it means that I wouldn't be able to play the game in 10 or 20 years.

GLdRH•53m ago
The number of people who want that may be higher than you think. It's the only/main reason why the FIFA-games exist.
toofy•1h ago
anyone ever noticed how so many completely different restaurants food tastes almost exactly the same? it’s because so many of them use the exact same food suppliers to buy their food before they cook it. [0]

gaming over the last few years feels the same way. like they all taste almost the same.

> Simply pretending these very real concerns don’t exist is nonsense land.

i don’t believe this to be true at all.

if all of the things you listed are limiting game development so much, than this isn’t “progress” in the games space. if it’s really that bad, maybe we should regress, start from the basics and let some of the incredible indie studios or midsize studios take the lead who will A) bring us actual originality, not more IP rehashed for the thousandth time, B) not bleed gamers wallets dry and C) lets us actually own the thing we buy.

sooo many amazing games were made in the past that were able to do this and do it well, the difference is they didn’t cry if they “only” made $40 million in profit.

cod3 made like $400 million in the first 24 hours.

the difference now is the AAA studios are sucking all of the air out of the room and not leaving nearly as much room for midsize studios.

[0] sysco, us foods, and pfg supply an absolute massive number of restaurants in the US. sysco alone distributes to something like 700,000 restaurants.

bellgrove•2h ago
Having worked there in the past, Ubisoft is awful. When I was there previously there was an aggressive push for UPlay (now Ubisoft Connect) integration into all products. Then there were the bullshots for promos/E3/etc. There were often clashes with leadership who would fight against creativity / novel ideas in favour of cookie-cutter mechanics that would not add anything to the experience - certainly there was a mentality of, let's just copy what was recently successful.

I'm blown away that series like AC, FarCry are still big sellers. These games are vapid and designed to be a time sink.

bashinator•2h ago
I'll never buy an Ubisoft game again. Instant dealbreaker to see that studio on the Steam store page; I've deleted a $3 sale game from my cart when I realized that it was Ubisoft. No game is worth giving money to a company that hates its customers so much.
valiant55•53m ago
On the flip side ex-Ubisoft employees seem to be finding success after their departure. Highly recommend Clair Obsur: Expedition 33.
DrillShopper•2h ago
Not to mention the sexual assault
zamalek•2h ago
> I'm blown away that series like AC, FarCry are still big sellers. These games are vapid and designed to be a time sink.

They are like junk food. Everyone has the junk food that they enjoy. FarCry is certainly the McDonald's of games. I enjoy some junk food once in a while, problems arise if I make it my staple diet.

mopsi•2h ago
This goes beyond games and calls for regulation of anything sold as a product, but working more like a subscription service. Similar issues also affect an increasing number of appliances that rely on apps and connect through manufacturer-hosted services. If the manufacturer goes out of business or shuts down a service, fully working devices can lose some or all of their features. Manufacturers should be required to open up their devices and provide a documented local API, if for no other reason, then to reduce the huge amount of electronic waste created by making devices artificially obsolete.

I think that approaching the problem from the perspective of a physical product, like a smart lightbulb that doesn't work anymore because the manufacturer shut down its servers, would be easier for non-technical people to understand and would likely have a better chance of success.

layer8•2h ago
If any of this goes through in terms of legislation, it will mostly just have “buy” change into “lifetime subscription” (where as usual, “lifetime” means the lifetime of the service). I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be done, and the article itself alludes to that outcome, but it also means that it won’t stop the killing of games.
calibas•2h ago
Video games publishers don't want you to play the same game for too long without spending more money. They don't want to make games like Terraria where you have a $10 game you can play for a thousand hours. They'd much rather you buy multiple $60+ games, plus expansions, "micro"-transactions and subscriptions.

They don't want games that last forever, they want to pressure you into constantly buying the next big thing.

mystraline•2h ago
So much this.

Its why Neverwinter Nights had extensive modding, local hosted server, and more....

But Baldurs Gate 3 doesn't.

NWN will still be playable in 10 years. BG3 likely won't be, or significant reductions in game quality will take place.

DrillShopper•2h ago
BG3 is quite possibly one of the most modable games of the last five years, and the multiplayer game is self hosted (peer to peer)
artemonster•2h ago
Knowling Larian I dont think that will be the case. what are you basing your assumptions upon? there is already extensive modding for bg3
PoshBreeze•2h ago
Larian are no longer involved with development of BG3:

https://www.ign.com/articles/wizards-of-the-coast-not-to-bla...

EDIT: Updated Link. It seems they've added free patches and won't be working on BG4.

shkkmo•2h ago
That announcement is about BG4 not BG3.
PoshBreeze•2h ago
I've update the link. It seems they've released a bunch of free content instead in recent patches, which contradicts what they previously said somewhat.
DrillShopper•2h ago
Your article doesn't say "Larian are no longer involved with development of BG3". It in fact says they're still developing it, but won't be making BG4.

The official Larian BG3 Discord server is promoting a mod competition, and they're still adding content, bug fixes, and new features to the game as well.

PoshBreeze•2h ago
I've updated the Link with the right one.

https://baldursgate3.game/news/the-final-patch-new-subclasse...

So it looks like they've released free content update and after this is is going to be hot fixes?

mystraline•2h ago
Show me the local server executable.
spacemadness•1h ago
By playable do you just mean new content? It will be perfectly playable in 10 years just like all the other classic CRPGs. It would be amazing if modding in content was easy like NWN, if that’s what you mean, because it obviously isn’t. It does seem like such a waste. I’m in a second replay and it’s enjoyable but just so long and will become more repetitive. There are certain sections in Act I that I can’t see myself enjoying a third time at all. Some smaller modules would be amazing. I think the closest thing to that will be Solasta II in the modern era.
nickthegreek•1h ago
My understanding is that WOTC wouldn’t extend their d&d license to be used in bg3 with that full set of modding that you want.
chickenzzzzu•2h ago
This is literally every industry now. Shall we "regulate" all industries to be like this, then? Is that achievable?

Shall we require Netflix to release server builds so that you can access their content indefinitely because you paid for a subscription at some point? "That's not what this is about. Ok, where are we heading then?

danlitt•2h ago
I mean, what you describe sounds pretty good. It sounds like you think it's not feasible for some reason (other than political will). Do you want to elaborate on that?
chickenzzzzu•2h ago
It certainly is feasible. Requiring it to happen though, would result in some interesting economic dynamics, I believe.

We currently exist in a two tier global economy where some countries are required to follow a strict set of laws, and others basically make their own. To be clear, I am saying that Russia and China do not care at all about piracy and IP theft and so on.

As you increase the rules that Western companies must follow, you run the risk that some day your only options will be non-Western companies, and that may or may not be a good thing. This is what has happened with manufacturing, and it was good for a while until it wasn't. It still is quite good in some pockets though, like batteries and solar.

traverseda•2h ago
Paying for a subscription is explicitly not what this is about. No one is suggesting this for MMOs. Just that it be clear that it is a subscription, that you're not actually buying the game. What a one-time fee for an MMO? Give it an expiry date. You can keep pushing the expiry date, but you have to promise support up to at least that date.
AndrewPGameDev•1h ago
AFAICT SKG doesn't really make a distinction between games bought with a one-time purchase and games that are subscribed to. In their FAQ, they explicitly say it would apply to MMOs too (see https://www.stopkillinggames.com/faq "What about large-scale MMORPGs? Isn't it impossible for customers to run those when servers are shut down?) although they don't spell out whether they mean exclusively games bought with a one-time fee or games that are subscription-only.

Ross from Accursed Farms said this in a video FAQ on youtube:

" Would this initiative affect subscription games? Well, that's another question that depends on what the EU says. Personally, I think it's very unlikely because that doesn't fit well with other existing consumer laws. I think the only way you could even make that argument would be that this is necessary for preservation and most governments don't seem to care about that at all. However, I don't think this is a huge loss, since only a handful of games operate that way today. So if we can give up those but then save 99% of other games, I'm willing to make that bargain. "

so it seems like they actually are suggesting that they'd like for (a law that came out of) SKG to apply to subscription games but there's an understanding that it probably won't.

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
Then this is essentially a formalized buggestion, and what will almost certainly happen is companies will respond back with "Won't Fix"
trehalose•2h ago
If Netflix decides to end their service and make every TV show and movie they have permanently unavailable, even through all other legal businesses, then yeah, it would be nice of them to give that stuff away.
sheepolog•2h ago
A more accurate analogy would be: you bought a physical DVD and DVD player, but now the film studio is preventing you from playing the DVD that you own on the hardware you own. In which case yes, we should regulate. Paying for access to a constantly changing library is not the same as paying to permanently own a single product.
theptip•2h ago
It’s pretty easy to solve static content like ebooks and video games; just legislate that your license is transferrable between services and media. Then I can legally torrent a game that is unsupported.

Content subscriptions like Netflix are different because you are not paying face value for one title. The better analogy here would be the game streaming services like XBox online. It’s clear you are not doing anything like “buying a game”, it’s the whole point of the business model. As you say, it would be a lot harder to make these laws apply there (but I bet that wouldn’t stop the EU from trying).

I think any legislation on this subject would have to reckon with the second-order effects; on the margin you’d be adding pressure for publishers to move to pure subscription services, if these laws don’t apply in those cases.

_aavaa_•2h ago
> legislate the that your license

What we should be doing is applying the laws that already exist: when I purchase a physical book I own a copy of it and can sell it, lend it, modify it.

Amazon and the publishers have zero say in the matter.

Buying a digital copy should be no different. I more of this stupid “you bought a license to access a copy” crap.

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
Let's step through this example.

All Xbox games around 2004 were physical CDs. Many had online services attached to them. Eventually, those servers were turned off. You can still play LAN and singleplayer. You still have your access to the physical bytes on the disk (though there is copy protection).

What should companies be required to do regarding the servers?

_aavaa_•1h ago
Not sue people into oblivion if they want to reverse engineer and create their own servers.
chickenzzzzu•1h ago
That is a perfectly rational suggestion. It is repulsive that large companies such as my employer do this.
theptip•1h ago
Thing is, you are by default allowed to write mostly any contract / ToS you like (within the broad rules of contract law). So to implement this you need to explicitly ban “license for things that could be purchases”. And as I noted above the edge cases and market pressures make that non-trivial; do you also ban subscription services like Audible?
calibas•2h ago
The FTC is currently suing John Deere over this kind of thing.

Also, Netflix is a weird comparison here. That seems like it should be an online-only service, they're not selling the actual movies to you. It's one of the situations where the model actually makes sense, unlike single-player video games.

gruturo•1h ago
> Shall we require Netflix to release server builds so that you can access their content indefinitely because you paid for a subscription at some point?

Actually not Netflix as they just offer a monthly subscription and not individual sales, but _YES_ by all means if I "purchase" (not rent!) a book or movie on Amazon (or anyone else), I'd like that, thank you.

conductr•2h ago
This would be why they’re trying to create consumer protection laws
vinkelhake•1h ago
That kind of reasoning makes sense if you have a single publisher controlling the entire market and they don't want to undercut their own business. But that's obviously not the case. There are plenty of publishers that want to publish games like Terraria, especially if they go on to sell more than 60 million copies.
calibas•1h ago
I think the market is actually much more segmented than your comment implies. There's publishers who absolutely dominate certain niches, especially sporting games, and the only realistic competition they have are themselves.
chickenzzzzu•2h ago
I work for a game company. I am ardently opposed to this idea.

All you will end up with, in the best case scenario that isn't even guaranteed to happen, is extremely mediocre games for which you will have the server executable along with the client.

Whether you like it or not, thanks to piracy and competition (and yes I've heard Gabe Newell's quote on piracy), server authoritative video games that are eventually turned off is a legitimate business strategy, and not even just for games. And no, "just release your source code then" is not a valid rule to enforce either.

If you like video games so much but don't like the terms of serivce and price, have you tried making your own? It has never been easier to do so, and there are freely usable code and art assets on hundreds of different platforms for you to attempt.

eddd-ddde•2h ago
> If you like video games so much but don't like the terms of serivce and price, have you tried making your own?

This is such and odd thing to suggest. People want to play the games they paid for, _obviously_ they aren't going to make their own game.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
What you have paid for is not a physical copy of something that is guaranteed to work forever.

All you will achieve with this initiative is that that will be clearly labeled now, instead of implied.

masfuerte•2h ago
If that's all that will happen, why do you have a problem with it?
chickenzzzzu•2h ago
If that was the end of the road, then I definitely don't have a problem with it. Like another poster said, it would be like labeling for cigarettes, and that is totally fine.

What I do fear however, is that they will go a step further, requiring companies to release server builds, client and server sourde code, and then of course the ultimate dream, "well no you actually can't turn it off, we require you to maintain it forever even if it loses you money because gaming is a right".

akimbostrawman•2h ago
>requiring companies to release server builds, client and server sourde code

you did not read the initiative. they do not mention any of that and explicitly state that this won't be required (even if they wanted because of copyright laws).

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
Politics is a forward looking industry. As you can see with Trump, he went from talking about deporting so called illegal immigrants to deporting naturalized citizens.

Do not be surprised when they go from something harmless to something punitive that forces small companies out of business.

akimbostrawman•2h ago
punitive won't be "break there own laws to enforce others" but nice fear mongering. copyright infringement might as well be above murder in terms of politician interest don't worry.
akimbostrawman•2h ago
>What you have paid for is not a physical copy of something that is guaranteed to work forever.

untested legal ground in the EU

>All you will achieve with this initiative is that that will be clearly labeled now, instead of implied.

maybe or maybe not. creator of the infinitive has already acknowledged that its possible but still preferable to a surprise rug pull grey area.

artemonster•2h ago
ah, yes, for example quake3 an extremely mediocre game that has server executable along with the client? what is this argument even about?
chickenzzzzu•2h ago
Ok, so your idea is that we will require all companies to release server and client builds, and also the source code as well (?), at some clearly defined point in the future, if they decide to terminate the live service?

Will we also require the same of the smart fridge companies? Will we also require the same of companies that don't sell live services, such as toilets?

heckelson•2h ago
good idea! we need to give rights to the consumers!
chickenzzzzu•1h ago
I'm all for it if no industry receives a special carve out!
shminge•2h ago
If I buy a smart fridge and the company that made them suddenly decided to turn them all off, then I'd definitely like the ability to turn mine back on, yes.

And no, there's no expectation of source code. That's been covered many times.

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
How can we ensure that if we legislate the games industry, then we also legislate all other industries with no special carve outs? That would make me much more supportive.
shminge•1h ago
So your argument is that you won't support Stop Killing Games, but you'll support Stop Killing Things In General?

That's a strange stance. Even if that was your position SKG has a good opportunity to act as a stepping stone towards something grander.

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
Yes that's right. My opinion is that I am against legislating anything until we legislate everything.

Put yourself in the shoes of an employee or owner of some business. Would you enjoy being forced to follow certain rules of actual consequence, while others are allowed to do whatever they want?

phoronixrly•2h ago
> server authoritative video games that are eventually turned off is a legitimate business strategy

It is a legitimate business strategy... for now.

conductr•2h ago
I think there’s a mid ground where industry does nothing except slap a sticker on warning people that game features will sunset in the future, making parts of the game unplayable, perhaps making some commitment like no sooner than December 31, 2030.

It will essentially be the similar thing as the Surgeon General’s warning on a pack of cigarettes or the Parental Guidance logo on an album. The are US things, not sure if EU has similar.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
Completely and thoroughly agree. That is a very reasonable outcome.
dragonmost•1h ago
This is already one of the proposed solutions. Although you would have to state a specific date as not to mislead consumers. I would then have to decide if paying 80$ for a game I won't be able to play in the next 5 years is worth it.
pyrale•2h ago
> If you like video games so much but don't like the terms of serivce and price, have you tried making your own?

No need to go that far, there's plenty of games sold with better terms of service than the ones your company offers.

Forcing companies to be upfront about this aspect will help concerned consumers choose these instead of yours.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
And which company is that?
pyrale•2h ago
e.g. Factorio. e.g. Hades.

Both games available offline and DRM-free.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
How do they handle piracy, unless they don't? In which case, very good for them that they have such a great group of supporters. I am not sure if we should require every company to behave in such a way, and simply let consumers reward such companies with their money? This is just a fundamental economic model argument that I apply to any industry, except maybe baby formula or something.
pyrale•1h ago
> How do they handle piracy, unless they don't?

So your point is that you need to fuck your paying customers in order to mildly annoy people who don't buy your games?

Besides, the proposal doesn't even require you not to have anti-piracy servers; it only requires you to avoid bricking the game once you turn of the servers.

> simply let consumers reward such companies with their money?

For that you would need to be upfront about it.

shkkmo•2h ago
It is about truthful advertising. If you are selling a video game, you aren't allowed to yank access to that game away from users.

If you wanna do a subscription or a rental, you have to call it that.

I don't see why forcing companies to stop lying is a bad idea.

mrangle•2h ago
Your games are mediocre now.

It's better to have a mediocre game that one can play, than an exceptional game that one can't.

You're free to make games now, and yet it's most often hard to justify money for a game that isn't a skin on a version of solitaire (on sale).

That's how bad your industry is. So, please, with your warning. As if you have work product to bargain with.

You act as if your industry is busy. Outside of a couple of exceptional studios, and infinite sequels on literally only a few popular formulas (whether or not these formulas are good is another discussion), your industry is largely non-productive. If we are utilizing your metric of good vs mediocre.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
I agree with you that there is a mountain of shit in the gaming industry.

Is any other industry different? Are Instagram and Tiktok literally not brainwashing hundreds of millions of people? Do defense companies care that innocents are murdered with their weapons? Do airplane companies face any enforceable moral judgment that they encourage relatively rich people to engage in idle leisure in other countries rather than being productive with their time for society, to which they owe some level of production in exchange for the society that raised them?

The argument knows no bounds. It is a matter of taste.

mrangle•2h ago
Points for the most insane answer possible, no offense. No idea what you are talking about.

Given that you work for the video game industry, perhaps your comment is in a sense perfect.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
The last part of it is just me going off the rails, but do you really think only the game industry is bad?
mrangle•1h ago
Good luck with that really weird approach.
akimbostrawman•2h ago
>is extremely mediocre games for which you will have the server executable along with the client.

opposed to absolutely nothing? yeah i think we can do with "mediocre"

>video games that are eventually turned off is a legitimate business strategy

if they aren't misleading customers about it sure. make the game a subscription and you can shut it down whenever you want :)

>And no, "just release your source code then" is not a valid rule to enforce either.

nobody said that. the petition explicitly leaves out the "how" because it could possibly run against existing copyright laws.

>have you tried making your own?

ad hominem and irrelevant to the topic. i don't need to have every build a roof to be against building it with asbestos.

chickenzzzzu•2h ago
Re subscription marketing messaging, totally agree.

Re mediocre, ok that's fine.

Re the "how", then we arent really talking about anything here. Until there is a how, there is nothing to firmly agree or disagree with, so we have to talk in hypotheticals, which we are, and which is semi valuable.

Re making your own, when a company sells you a toilet and it breaks, you fix it yourself or buy a new one. When your 1999 game doesnt run on Windows 11, you fix it yourself or you buy a new one. If you require companies to fix it for you, the small ones will go bankrupt and the big ones will find a loophole.

akimbostrawman•2h ago
>the small ones will go bankrupt and the big ones will find a loophole.

you mean the loop hole that was industry standard before 2000 and a handful of dudes in basements solved?

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
Sorry I am not sure what you mean, but I would actually really like to know what you are referencing
akimbostrawman•1h ago
private server where the default in the past. that's why games that are 30 years old like quake, doom and unreal tournament (all created by dev teams the size of about a dozen with as much funding as current indie games) can still be played to this day and as long as software allows it forever with 0 effort or cost by the developers.
chickenzzzzu•1h ago
I completely and thoroughly agree with this suggestion. It shouldn't be a requirement, however. You should reward companies who do this with your money, and it should be clearly labeled that you will or will not be receiving this.
willi59549879•2h ago
It seems you didn't read the initiative text. The initiative does not force game Devs to release the code or make specific technical demands.

Game Devs only have to make a plan for when the game gets shut down to still allow the users to be able to play the game. How that is archived can be decided by the developers. Of course the law could be different in the future.

But most people do agree that it is bad to intentionally break games that people payed money for. All they are basically are asking for, is that games are built in a way that they can be enjoyed as long as possible (maybe supported by the community). Is that not also in the intention of the game developers?

chickenzzzzu•1h ago
It might be the intention of some game developers. I can tell you however that the intention of the people who run my company is to make as much money as possible.

My opinion is that you, as a consumer, should reward the companies who treat you best with your money. You should not require the government to do it for you, because if you do, the thing you end up with might not be the thing you receive, sadly.

And yes, this logic holds for most industries, but not all. I for one think there should be stringent rules for food processing, since that can actually kill you, and yet still putrid beef and tainted baby formula are sold on a relatively frequent basis.

donatj•2h ago
I feel... uneasy about the idea. Are games art?

If so, are you comfortable telling artists what types of art they can create? I know not everyone is going to agree with me here but it feels like a slippery slope.

artemonster•2h ago
what a strawman. its not about "you cannot draw this" but its more like "please dont use dyes that offgas deadly fumes", a technical regulation not about substance
donatj•2h ago
Talk about strawman, it's literally "I paid for something I don't like, there should be a law!" And you're comparing it to poison gas
jjulius•2h ago
>... it's literally "I paid for something I don't like, there should be a law!"

Is this entirely the fault of the customer, or is it that the studios have largely forced this model upon customers, leaving them with little choice?

artemonster•2h ago
this was not a literal comparison, wtf, but an example of a technical limitation that will be imposed by law as a counter to your "art" stupidity. You can Use alternative formulation if you cant comprehend basic methaphors: „stop using dyes that decay in 2 months“
shminge•2h ago
>... it's literally "I paid for something I don't like, there should be a law!"

It's much more like "I paid for something, there should be a law so no one can take what I've paid for"

mainde•1h ago
IMHO the incentives are disproportionately in favour of everyone doing something that hurts consumers (= "something that I don't like"), thus regulation in favour of consumer rights is appropriate.

There isn't a scenario where, at scale, someone can offer a product that respects consumer rights and is successful, because it's too profitable to not respect consumer rights just like it wasn't in many other cases.

ThouYS•2h ago
art, shmart. aside the fact that a large part of art is money laundering or tax evasion, what is being asked for is more like banning radioactive or cancerous paint pigment
jjulius•2h ago
Depends entirely on the game. Some are art, games designed by people who love games for the sake of games. Others are things that employ the use of art for the sake of long-term financial gain.
Barrin92•2h ago
>I feel... uneasy about the idea. Are games art?

Yes, which is precisely why they shouldn't be treated like a commodity. Nobody is telling artists what art they can make, what the initiative is about making sure public continues to have access to works of art.

Which is normal for everything that's considered to be of cultural relevance. Film studios and novelists don't get to burn libraries down the moment someone stops paying them. It's exactly because games are art that preservation and access need to be priorities. Can you imagine if Amazon started to delete books from your Kindle? (I'm pretty sure they tried that once actually, with 1984 no less)

The destruction of art is, in most civilizations, seen as completely obscene. The reason why game companies got away with it was precisely because games had a lower status.

donatj•2h ago
How do you feel about art that changes over time? Temporal pieces. Plays that were only ever to be performed once?
jjulius•2h ago
Those are cool! They're also designed that way for a specific art-based reasoning - the temporality often has a deeper meaning.

Games designed for limited play, however, are designed that way for the sake of profit churn.

conductr•2h ago
Once art get sold, it becomes a product and your customers have legal rights in that transaction
shminge•2h ago
Would any art gallery pay for a piece that the artist could walk in and take away whenever they wanted?

This isn't so much about art, more about what you deserve when you pay money for something. People are still free to make whatever they want.

127•1h ago
Yes, games are art. Which is why this is so important. Are you comfortable with destroying cultural heritage for the sake of corporate profit? Did you even ask artists working in the game industry what they think about this?
throw10920•2h ago
I think very few people (outside of the industry - important caveat) are opposed to the stated goals of the initiative:

> This initiative calls to require publishers that sell or license videogames to consumers in the European Union [...] to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

The concern that I have is that I have no idea what the actual text of the law is going to be.

You can look at laws like the DMCA, that had a reasonable purpose (made adjustments to the copyright system for the age of the internet) and a royally screwed up implementation that basically everyone can find a problem with.

It's easy to imagine that the laws that pass could be (1) completely neutered by corruption in the EU leading to regulatory capture (2) far too strong and written in a way that imposes unfair burdens on developers (which include indie devs too) or (3) bad just because of technical incompetence of the authors.

I know that there's not much I can do about those things, but that may explain the emotional reactions of some people like e.g. PirateSoftware - nobody actually knows what the resulting law will be like, and everyone familiar with the legislative system knows how bad the outputs can be.

qznc•2h ago
So don’t even try because it might be bad?
throw10920•2h ago
Nowhere did I say or imply that - did you respond to the wrong comment by accident?
conductr•2h ago
It’s kind of implied by your argument. All these concerns apply to every piece of legislation that gets concocted. What makes this topic especially effected by one’s distrust in the government’s ability?
throw10920•2h ago
> It’s kind of implied by your argument.

No, it's absolutely not. You're reading your own thoughts into it. Nowhere is the implication that we should do nothing.

> All these concerns apply to every piece of legislation that gets concocted. What makes this topic especially effected by one’s distrust in the government’s ability?

Because the authors are asking for public support for an initiative, and it now has a lot of public attention, with some specific people (mostly PirateSoftware) that are also publicly opposing it, and likely many more lurkers that don't want to sign it because of their concerns.

It's also the case that the more technical the topic, the more that legislators tend to screw it up, likely because of technical incompetence.

I'm elaborating the concerns so that they can get addressed. If you want more signatures, then you'd want to know what peoples' hangups are so that you can fix them.

conductr•58m ago
The correct path would be to establish/find a consumer protection group to help legislative bodies craft the documents in a way that held true to the spirit of what is driving this initiative. The industry will do the same to thing. So as the documents are drafted the feedback from the public’s standpoint continues to have a voice. Hopefully that happens but it’s too early in the process to say and it requires funding too.

The hang ups can’t simply be nihilistic complaints about the government’s abilities without any solutions proposed. That’s an argument for doing nothing

throw10920•47m ago
> establish/find a consumer protection group to help legislative bodies craft the documents

Yes, that's one of the ways to address this. Active consumer participation is still necessary, though, as the consumer protection group can still lose its way.

> The hang ups can’t simply be nihilistic complaints about the government’s abilities without any solutions proposed. That’s an argument for doing nothing

No, it's factually not. If I order soup from a restaurant, and it arrives and is terrible and I complain, I do not have to specify what the chef did wrong, or how they should fix it, for my complaint to be valid - and the fact that I'm not providing the solution does not mean that I think nothing should be done. Similarly, I don't have to point out what the solution has to be for my complaint to be valid, and that does not mean that I think nothing should be done. That's just insane.

theptip•2h ago
> to leave said videogames in a functional (playable) state.

Yeah, I like the general goal, but I worry about the corner cases; is an MMO “functional/playable” if you just release a localhost server? Are we forcing indie shops to pay for servers indefinitely now? Great way to ensure no more indie MMOs get built if that ends up being the text interpretation.

And, as you say, the question you should always be asking about EU legislation - how does this affect the small/medium shops’ competitiveness? Counterintuitively, compliance can hit the small guys relatively harder and entrench the big guys.

Not to say that we shouldn’t try to fix the problem. But agree that skepticism about EU regulations has some historical merit.

throw10920•1h ago
> compliance can hit the small guys relatively harder and entrench the big guys

This is almost always the case, actually. Regulation and compliance are taxes on the productivity of an organization. And the "shape" of the tax is mostly flat - the burden is sublinear in the size of the organization, so the relative effects on smaller companies are bigger. And smaller companies already have significantly less available resources, and especially less legal resources (no lawyers on retainer), to handle it.

Obviously that doesn't mean that regulation shouldn't be passed, just that you have to write it very, very carefully - think embedded systems rather than web frontend - minimizing complexity and aggressively red-teaming it for loopholes and edge-cases.

SpaghettiCthulu•1h ago
> is an MMO “functional/playable” if you just release a localhost server? Are we forcing indie shops to pay for servers indefinitely now?

The man behind Stop Killing Games has made it perfectly clear that they do not want to force game developers to continue operating servers. Rather, as you suggest, releasing server binaries would be acceptable. Although a mere "localhost" server would likely not be sufficient, because (if I interpret your suggestion correctly) it takes away the multiplayer funtionality of the game. I think it would be reasonable to require developers to release online multiplayer capable server binaries.

theptip•1h ago
> I think it would be reasonable to require developers to release online multiplayer capable server binaries.

Not a game dev but would there be concerns about forcing devs to ship binaries for a codebase that was previously purely SaaS and proprietary, and likely containing logic that is a reusable for future games? The edge cases here seem a little gnarly. (Maybe it’s not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, how much competitive advantage comes from the MMO server code? I gather it can be tricky to do some things well like AoC pushing high player counts.)

xeonmc•1h ago
Perhaps mandatory Docker container packaging for EOL multiplayer games?
techjamie•1h ago
Ross addresses these things in his videos on the initiative. For one, the game doesn't have to be 100% functional, it just has to do a bare minimum.

They might not even need to release server binaries, even. I would think releasing documentation on how the network commication runs, and adding a box to enter a server IP into the client at EOL would be sufficient. The community, if enough people care, would then be empowered to write their own server implementation without needing the reverse engineering step.

Volundr•20m ago
Online games like MMOs and live service games generally have tooling for developers to run the game on their local machines for obvious reasons. Releasing said tooling would also be an option.
Hojojo•2h ago
This vague handwringing isn't any better. None of us know what the law will end up turning into. But we shouldn't let that stop this being addressed properly in our political institutions. That's what they're there for.

Also, bringing up the DMCA is sort of rich, since it was always just a vehicle for the biggest content companies in publishing, film, television, music and software to protect their property online.

Now we have something that was brought into being by consumers and may finally do something to curb anti-consumer behaviour by companies like this, and you're against it because you have no idea what it'll look like. I just can't, man. What's even the point of legislation if we have to be afraid it'll all be corrupted? Why even have political institutions at all at that point?

dekrg•1h ago
And if the end result of this legislation is that videogames in EU aren't licensed or sold but are instead all streamed and you are instead just buying access to stream a game, then what? TO me it's just amazing how the advocates for SKG ignore any possibility that it could make things much worse that they already.
throw10920•1h ago
> This vague handwringing isn't any better.

Baseless, fallacious emotional manipulation in substitute for being able to apply useful criticism.

> None of us know what the law will end up turning into. But we shouldn't let that stop this being addressed properly in our political institutions.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to more corruption and regulatory capture. You are literally enabling that kind of behavior by advocating that we should just push ahead without addressing my concerns.

The correct thing to do is for the Stop Killing Games initiative to be more concrete and specify what features of the laws they want implemented to reduce latitude for the EU to screw things up. That's the outcome I'm hoping for - not that the SKG initiative doesn't pass.

> you're against it because you have no idea what it'll look like

I never said that. Perhaps you should read comments more carefully before responding to them.

> What's even the point of legislation if we have to be afraid it'll all be corrupted? Why even have political institutions at all at that point?

If you don't know that citizens have more leverage than just voting yes or no, I'm afraid you won't be able to comprehend the answer.

PoshBreeze•2h ago
> Private servers are not always a viable alternative option for players as the protections we put in place to secure players’ data, remove illegal content, and combat unsafe community content would not exist and would leave rights holders liable.

I find it really frustrating how they phrase things because there is so much BS in almost one sentence. The entire point of having a private server is so that they are no longer in control of these things.

Moreover if I am running a private server:

- It isn't their responsibility to secure players data.

- it isn't their responsibility to remove illegal content.

- it isn't their responsibility to remove "unsafe" (whatever that means) community content.

So how could they be liable?

> In addition, many titles are designed from the ground-up to be online-only; in effect, these proposals would curtail developer choice by making these video games prohibitively expensive to create.

This is pretty much disingenuous argument that "PirateSoftware" was pushing. They are pretending that a single player mode would need to be created. This isn't what is being requested.

subjectsigma•2h ago
Seems pretty obvious to me that if this passes, big game companies will either re-label all new releases as “subscriptions” and/or just never make a single-player game again. And mostly nothing will change. If you don’t like companies like this, don’t buy their games. There’s literally thousands of indie game companies that don’t abuse their users.
skotobaza•1h ago
> don’t buy their games

Not a solution. Other people will buy them and outvote you with their wallets. This has already happened. People did buy The Crew, and I doubt that most of them realized that it will be closed 10 years later.

SamuelAdams•2h ago
At a macro level, killed games are a good thing for gaming companies. It creates a shortage of playable games so that new games sell and continue to make money.

The biggest competitor to the video game industry is movies (Netflix, Disney plus, etc) and past games.

Think about it - what does the gaming industry look like 100 years from today? If players can play thousands of high quality games for free, why bother paying for a new game?

I suppose the book industry has the same problem, maybe there are some parallels to study from that.

pyrale•2h ago
> Think about it - what does the gaming industry look like 100 years from today?

This is something we can answer pretty easily by looking at the book industry. People do enjoy novelty. The pulp sci-fi/fantasy from the 60s-80s is long forgotten save for a few masterpieces, and there is a flow of recent books that people buy and read.

cornstalks•1h ago
> At a macro level, killed games are a good thing for gaming companies.

But they aren’t good for consumers.

immibis•1h ago
It would still be illegal to acquire a copy of a killed game. Their numbers would still dwindle, since they'd be limited to people who bought the game before it was killed.
SpaghettiCthulu•1h ago
Until copyright runs out.
tmtvl•28m ago
I mean, Project Gutenberg and libraries exist and the literature industry hasn't died yet.
dandersch•1h ago
Having followed this initiative quite extensively from the beginning, the most baffling thing has been the underwhelming support from developers themselves, both from studios and individual devs.

You would think the very idea of years of your work being rendered unplayable in an instant would be enough incentive to signal boost any effort against this industry practice.

Instead, developer discourse has revolved around just how hard it would be to do what this is petition is asking for. You are an engineer for crying out loud. If you solved a problem but a new constraint arrives in the form of a law, you figure out how to solve the problem under the new constraint. Just because something is hard, doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

It's almost like flexing your skills and signalling your elite knowledge is more important to people than simply defending what's right.

skotobaza•1h ago
I think that most developers are just afraid to voice such anti-industry opinion. Gamedev is fairly small industry, so if you piss off wrong people, you might be left without job opportunities.
izzydata•1h ago
If game publishers could in clear writing at time of purchase commit to a set number of years that game will be live then I think that is a good start. For example when the next live service game is released and you go to purchase it there is a clear warning that the publisher has only guaranteed the game to be live for 2 years. Personally that would prevent me from buying the game, but perhaps not others.

The idea that a publisher can sell a live service game and shut it down in 1 month with no legal repercussions is ridiculous to me.

drwiggly•56m ago
The publisher can't do that. No one can tell the future.
CaptainFever•43m ago
They could be liable if they shut down the servers and make the purchase unusable before the end of the minimum contracted duration.