For infantry it is now as indispensable as an automatic rifle, grenades, radios, and so on. Fighters in Ukraine without drone support are at significant disadvantage.
galangalalgol•2h ago
Why doesn't duckshot make short work of these things?
tra3•2h ago
A lot of these fpv drones are capable of 30mph. That’s not a lot of time to spot em and react.
senectus1•2h ago
also.. detonating an explosive drone at only a few meters away is still likely to take you out...
lazide•1h ago
Some of them can go 90-120mph (off the shelf). Custom FPV drones can go even faster - some fancy ones 330+ kph (200+ mph)
mrheosuper•2h ago
Drone attacks in many ways. Some use suicide method that just ramming themself into you. Some just drop explosive from high above.
rpcope1•2h ago
Even bubba's pissin hot 3.5 magnum bird shot is probably not getting above 300 or 400 feet vertical for starters, and then you've either got to deal with hitting it dead on with a tight pattern wad or accepting that the shot is going spread enough to make it unlikely to hit it. So far as I have ever seen the energy in a shot shell wad dissipates much faster than a regular bullet, and I think you're better off trying to hit it with a regular old 556.
rpcope1•1h ago
Following on to this, I would not be remotely surprised if drones continue to be a threat to see something like a man portable gepard hooked up to an EW system, as given the speed those things move and how hard even hitting regular old Canadian Geese or errant clays under non-combat situations, I don't know how you would economically fight drone swarms short of a mini Phalanx CIWS or something.
Maybe ironically, I wonder if we won't see things like the Bofors 40mm guns continue to be prolific if they get successfully retasked to fighting drones (and they would end up like the M2, fighting long after it was initially conceived).
For the smaller drones it's an even more rapidly evolving, high-tech arms race. AFAIU, over the past year most of the battlefield drones have switched to kilometers-long fiber optic tethers to avoid electronic jamming. I dunno what all the defensive measures are, but one is using other drones to cut the cable. I think they may also be using directed energy weapons, now, though not sure how widespread that is.
esseph•32m ago
Not all, long range attacks can't use that.
Current method from public posts seems to be run on GPS and remote data link until jamming bubble is hit, then transition to visual/thermal/radar recognition of target for terminal approach.
Jamming only covers a small area (yes, some areas will have overlap), or a narrow movable cone. Both systems can be overran by the above method, or by swarms overriding directional electronic attack
dwd•18m ago
EOS (Aust) sent 160 of these to Ukraine to be mounted on M113 carriers and Kozak MRAPs. Could also be put on the back of a Toyota Hilux or other technicals.
They use a Bushmaster 30mm cannon with proximity fuse HE rounds so they don't need to hit the drone dead on.
Drones are most effective as tools of psychological warfare I think. Infantry in a trench can maybe disable a wave or two of drones before becoming overwhelmed, but the drone operator can remain safe and calm in their bunker kilometers away. Most drones don’t make it on target or even inflict lethal injury but their presence or the threat of their presence constantly draws the enemy’s attention away from your units. In Ukraine soldiers seem to worry much more about drones more than small arms or indirect fire. And both sides use this to influence the tactical decision making of their enemies.
wombatpm•1h ago
I would think drones carrying cluster bombs would be effective. More targeted in their destruction. No need to scatter bomblets over a quarter of a mile, just 10 or so around a tank.
verdverm•1h ago
If you have seen videos from the Russian invasion of Ukraine, especially over time, you can see the evolution of tactics.
For example with tanks, they...
- strap artillery shell to the drone and fly it into the tank
- drop a standard grenade into the hatch after the crew has fled
They don't need to drop munitions like cluster, they strap several on and drop them one at a time. They have become quite skilled and accurate, even from 100+ meters up in wind
There are places in Ukraine where it looks like giant spiders live there, due to all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields
vincnetas•1h ago
as far as i know, they don't strap artillery shells to drones, they too heavy. they strap shaped charges.
They have strapped so many things to drones, you'd think they've tried about everything, then some new video comes out
Drones have evolved rapidly and come in all shapes and sizes now. The DJI Maverick image in people's head is only one modality, though by far the most common form factor
SJC_Hacker•13m ago
Those must be HEAT rounds. An AP round would not have the velocity to do anything, anti-personnel would not penetrate tanks armor but would kill crew if dismounted or a hatch is left open
The Ukrainians report that about 70% of their kills are now by drones.
Current Ukrainian drone production rate was 1.7 million last year. Target for this year is above 4 million.[1] Russian comment: “Their reconnaissance drones are in the sky 24/7, and any movement on our part is immediately met with a massive wave of [first-person-view] drones.”
Tactics when you have large numbers of expendable drones are totally different from the old days of snooping around with a few drones.
There are entire subreddits dedicated to actual footage of drone effectiveness on the front lines... It's definitely not just psychological warfare. In some cases, the fiber optic lines crisscross fields so densely it looks like spider webs.
FPV drones can hit 80mph+ / 128kmph+ , other drones can fly much higher than a shotgun can reach.
Also, swarms.
somenameforme•1h ago
Large scale swarms will probably never be a major issue for infantry. You have a finite number of drones, even at extremely high rates of production, spread across all things you want to target. Sending a swarm at individual infantry, or even platoons is just wasteful. At scale that's thousands of drones, per day, that you could have instead sent towards more valuable targets.
This, btw, is also why claims that some side is targeting civilians in otherwise 'productive' warfare (e.g. actually achieving things instead of bombing for the sake of fear/terrorism/headlines/photo ops) is usually just lying propaganda. Civilians are a worse than 0 value target meaning you completely wasted your munitions.
maxdo•55m ago
The drone cost in hundreds of dollars , low hundreds , even optic one cost $300-400 at manufacturing.
Train a soldier is hundreds of thousands.
Manufacturing , both Ukraine and Russia , generally speaking technological midgets, producing as of today millions a year. Ukraines projected output is around 4 millions in 2025
China can easily produce tens of millions. Even if 1 out 4 hit your target , that’s any army of any size in the world obliterated without new recruits.
esseph•42m ago
This is not true.
The amount of money spent on training high level US infantry goes into the hundreds of thousands, and millions upon millions for Special Forces, Ranger/Ranger Recon/Tier 1 units/CIA SAC/SOG, etc.
A drone that can carry a payload can be built for under $200 USD. A swarm could be as few as say 10. Let's say 50, just for you example. 50x$200=$10,000.
If you take out an SF Team for example, that's 12 people. Let's say they were very new and they were only $800,000 into training so far in their career. 12x$800,000= $9.6mil USD.
Let's revise that calculation, with a 6 man infantry fire team young troops, $100,000 into training, each. $600,000/$10,000 = 60x more economically efficient even if all drones were lost in the operation, as long as the target was killed. You could still have 59 more tries with 50 drones per swarm to hit cost parity.
Oh yeah and some of those drones have thermals and high quality glass optics now, so they can see you and your squad as white dots moving across the landscape from miles and miles away.
People really don't understand the impact drones are having on the battlefield. It's nuts.
Edit:
I think this level of drone warfare will end up having a larger impact on warfare than both gunpowder and later the machine gun, but probably not as big as WWII large scale air campaigns.
dralley•39m ago
>This, btw, is also why claims that some side is targeting civilians in otherwise 'productive' warfare (e.g. actually achieving things instead of bombing for the sake of fear/terrorism/headlines/photo ops) is usually just lying propaganda. Civilians are a worse than 0 value target meaning you completely wasted your munitions.
Dude, Russians literally post this stuff on their own social media accounts. The "munitions" in question are no more expensive than a basic frag grenade.
And what part of the Russian war effort has led you to the conclusion that they value productivity over terrorism and photo ops? The incentive structures of the Russian military are just oceans apart from anything a westerner would consider a proper functional military.
I have some clips for you. Does this look like the operations of a productive military to you? You have no clue, absolutely none at all. They do this shit kind of to their own soldiers, and you think they're above trying to terrorize Ukrainians into compliance?
Note: that last clip is very, very NSFL. For reference, naked and bound deserters were thrown into a dirt pit and fired upon with rifles (not killed, at least not in the video, but threatened essentially)
I can understand how a westerner who has never seen, even by proxy, the dregs of the Russian internet could conceive of just how fucked up Russian military culture is. But, like, none of this stuff is hidden. The brutality of what happens to people who disobey them is genuinely part of the image they want to portray to the world (and to themselves). And in this way they feel the need to make an example of the Ukrainians - who by the way Russian state media isn't shy about portraying as basically subhumans.
wolpoli•14m ago
Also, drones are currently being flown by soldiers in fpv goggles so swarm is not very practical. It will change once we have swarm software and there is a need for it.
ninetyninenine•1h ago
It probably does. But you've seen how fast these drones are right? It's the speed of aliens in the alien movie or a velociraptor from Jurassic park and much more maneuverable, smaller and can come at you from all dimensions.
Now imagine a swarm coming at you, each with explosives.
wombatpm•1h ago
Or even smaller drones with a single shot bullet, autonomous with enough intelligence to seek and target faces for their shot.
Covered in Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez
prawn•1h ago
My experience is only with consumer drones, but you could fly over a target area and release an explosive before anyone heard that it was there, especially in a noisy environment. Above 100m, unless you're at high speed/power, most people won't notice a drone at all. It's often a change in speed/direction that gives them away, otherwise it will be past you before you first notice the sound.
somenameforme•1h ago
They do. There's a lot of videos of them being taken out with birdshot. I also saw one video about modding underbarrel grenade launchers to fire a shotgun cartridge.
esseph•1h ago
A lot of US under barrel launchers have "factory" buckshot rounds.
Got to imagine there are going to be a lot of well-paid PMC jobs for Ukrainian veterans in other countries that neighbor Russia after the war.
yahway•1h ago
《Now
Larrikin•1h ago
Is the book actually available to read?
Animats•33m ago
The manual from 2020 is available.[1] But nobody took drones that seriously back then. In that document, they're treated mostly as recon assets, not primary attack weapons.
ipnon•2h ago
galangalalgol•2h ago
tra3•2h ago
senectus1•2h ago
lazide•1h ago
mrheosuper•2h ago
rpcope1•2h ago
rpcope1•1h ago
Maybe ironically, I wonder if we won't see things like the Bofors 40mm guns continue to be prolific if they get successfully retasked to fighting drones (and they would end up like the M2, fighting long after it was initially conceived).
rstupek•1h ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSETxYGrxVw
wahern•57m ago
For the smaller drones it's an even more rapidly evolving, high-tech arms race. AFAIU, over the past year most of the battlefield drones have switched to kilometers-long fiber optic tethers to avoid electronic jamming. I dunno what all the defensive measures are, but one is using other drones to cut the cable. I think they may also be using directed energy weapons, now, though not sure how widespread that is.
esseph•32m ago
Current method from public posts seems to be run on GPS and remote data link until jamming bubble is hit, then transition to visual/thermal/radar recognition of target for terminal approach.
Jamming only covers a small area (yes, some areas will have overlap), or a narrow movable cone. Both systems can be overran by the above method, or by swarms overriding directional electronic attack
dwd•18m ago
They use a Bushmaster 30mm cannon with proximity fuse HE rounds so they don't need to hit the drone dead on.
https://eos-aus.com/defence/counter-drone-systems/slinger/
ipnon•1h ago
wombatpm•1h ago
verdverm•1h ago
For example with tanks, they...
- strap artillery shell to the drone and fly it into the tank
- drop a standard grenade into the hatch after the crew has fled
They don't need to drop munitions like cluster, they strap several on and drop them one at a time. They have become quite skilled and accurate, even from 100+ meters up in wind
There are places in Ukraine where it looks like giant spiders live there, due to all the fiber optic cables from drones left on the battle fields
vincnetas•1h ago
verdverm•1h ago
They have strapped so many things to drones, you'd think they've tried about everything, then some new video comes out
Drones have evolved rapidly and come in all shapes and sizes now. The DJI Maverick image in people's head is only one modality, though by far the most common form factor
SJC_Hacker•13m ago
asimpleusecase•28m ago
SteveNuts•54m ago
Are they tethered? I thought these were all radio controlled
Crespyl•52m ago
verdverm•49m ago
Here's an post with a few pictures of the tangled mess left behind
https://bou.org.uk/blog-moreland-fibreoptic-drones/
Animats•43m ago
Tactics when you have large numbers of expendable drones are totally different from the old days of snooping around with a few drones.
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2025/03/12/45-million-...
beambot•33m ago
NSFW - https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/
esseph•1h ago
Also, swarms.
somenameforme•1h ago
This, btw, is also why claims that some side is targeting civilians in otherwise 'productive' warfare (e.g. actually achieving things instead of bombing for the sake of fear/terrorism/headlines/photo ops) is usually just lying propaganda. Civilians are a worse than 0 value target meaning you completely wasted your munitions.
maxdo•55m ago
Train a soldier is hundreds of thousands.
Manufacturing , both Ukraine and Russia , generally speaking technological midgets, producing as of today millions a year. Ukraines projected output is around 4 millions in 2025
China can easily produce tens of millions. Even if 1 out 4 hit your target , that’s any army of any size in the world obliterated without new recruits.
esseph•42m ago
The amount of money spent on training high level US infantry goes into the hundreds of thousands, and millions upon millions for Special Forces, Ranger/Ranger Recon/Tier 1 units/CIA SAC/SOG, etc.
A drone that can carry a payload can be built for under $200 USD. A swarm could be as few as say 10. Let's say 50, just for you example. 50x$200=$10,000.
If you take out an SF Team for example, that's 12 people. Let's say they were very new and they were only $800,000 into training so far in their career. 12x$800,000= $9.6mil USD.
Let's revise that calculation, with a 6 man infantry fire team young troops, $100,000 into training, each. $600,000/$10,000 = 60x more economically efficient even if all drones were lost in the operation, as long as the target was killed. You could still have 59 more tries with 50 drones per swarm to hit cost parity.
Oh yeah and some of those drones have thermals and high quality glass optics now, so they can see you and your squad as white dots moving across the landscape from miles and miles away.
People really don't understand the impact drones are having on the battlefield. It's nuts.
Edit:
I think this level of drone warfare will end up having a larger impact on warfare than both gunpowder and later the machine gun, but probably not as big as WWII large scale air campaigns.
dralley•39m ago
Dude, Russians literally post this stuff on their own social media accounts. The "munitions" in question are no more expensive than a basic frag grenade.
And what part of the Russian war effort has led you to the conclusion that they value productivity over terrorism and photo ops? The incentive structures of the Russian military are just oceans apart from anything a westerner would consider a proper functional military.
I have some clips for you. Does this look like the operations of a productive military to you? You have no clue, absolutely none at all. They do this shit kind of to their own soldiers, and you think they're above trying to terrorize Ukrainians into compliance?
https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/28/europe/russia-deserters-ukrai...
https://x.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1937075719428780250
https://x.com/wartranslated/status/1935714762664693993
https://x.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1932061484030267809
Note: that last clip is very, very NSFL. For reference, naked and bound deserters were thrown into a dirt pit and fired upon with rifles (not killed, at least not in the video, but threatened essentially)
I can understand how a westerner who has never seen, even by proxy, the dregs of the Russian internet could conceive of just how fucked up Russian military culture is. But, like, none of this stuff is hidden. The brutality of what happens to people who disobey them is genuinely part of the image they want to portray to the world (and to themselves). And in this way they feel the need to make an example of the Ukrainians - who by the way Russian state media isn't shy about portraying as basically subhumans.
wolpoli•14m ago
ninetyninenine•1h ago
Now imagine a swarm coming at you, each with explosives.
wombatpm•1h ago
Covered in Kill Decision by Daniel Suarez
prawn•1h ago
somenameforme•1h ago
esseph•1h ago
M79/M203/M320/etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M576_40_mm_grenade
AK would be a different story, but Ukraine has a lot of 3d printers and those shells are one time use and not hard to make.
energy123•22m ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarCollege/comments/1b0u0k0/how_eff...