Reading cannot be a sin. Thinking cannot be a sin. Speaking cannot be a sin.
It's a good thing that the index has been abolished in 1966.
Using “has been” here makes it immediately clear that you’re a non-native English speaker, unless you’re speaking some dialect I’m not familiar with.
Usually, we use the perfect (“has been”) with time intervals that include (or asymptotically approach) the present. We use the simple past (“was”) with time intervals or points that are closed and are clearly sepatated from the present.
For example: “I went to Lebanon in 2015”. 2015 is a specific point in time. But if I don’t include a time, I’d say “I’ve been to Lebanon”. Even though this was in the past, the fact that I don’t mention a specific time in the past means it implicitly includes the present, because I’m describing my current state: I’m someone who has been to Lebanon.
And, if I were in Lebanon now, for the first time, I could say “I’ve been to Lebanon”, and then it really does concretely include the present!
To illustrate another edge case: I’d say “my father has never been to Lebanon” but “my grandfather never went to Lebanon”. Because my father is still alive, but my grandfather is dead. So any statements about his life are automatically about a closed interval lying entirely in the past.
"Has been abolished in 1966" says that it was abolished in 1966 and it remains abolished today.
"Was abolished in 1966" says that it was abolished in 1966, but it provides no information about whether it might have been reinstated later and it might continue to be enforced today.
So in this case I believe that the other poster was correct in using "has been abolished in 1966".
That meaning would be expressed as "has been abolished since 1966", unless it is still 1966 when the idea is being expressed, in which case "has been abolished in 1966" works instead; "has been abolished" is a present perfect (passive voice) construction so "in <past time period>" doesn't make sense with it, while "since <past time period>" or "in <current time period>" does.
Specifically, using the combination "has been ... in". Either "was abolished in" (simple past in the passive voice) or "has been abolished since" (present perfect in the passive voice) would work (simple past describing the event of abolition, past perfect describing the continuous state of having been abolished from the point of that event up until and continuing through the present moment) would work.
the catholic church is an ancient institution that believes it is the continuing ministry of jesus christ. and thus, it is not beholding to purely biblical rules - but also tradition.
indeed, sin is an "utterance, deed, or desire" that offends God. the concept of sin is that it is abhorrent, and caused by concupiscence.
the ccc (catcheism) indeed has a definition for sin and does not specify what is or isn't sin directly - but rather through the above criteria, both biblical and traditional. and it is defined and ruminated upon by those who are the apostles (bishops) via the magisterium, which is their upholding of this
which is to say,
reading can be a sin - if those works are abhorrent to god, the bible, or the tradition of the church
thinking can be a sin - if those thoughts are abhorrent to god, the bible, or the tradition of the church
speaking can be a sin - if those words are abhorrent to god, the bible, or the tradition of the church
and boy howdy, if those fuckin jesusmonks put together a book of read-sins and by the magisterium and the tradition of the church, then reading them is a sin. sorry about your religion
It would have to be something sinful in itself, so, for example, planning a murder is clearly a sin, although only a thought. Taking pleasure is someone else's suffering is also a sin.
Reading to learn, honest thoughts, and honest speech cannot be sins. I think those are what the post you are replying to had in mind.
With that said, doubt is part of faith, and exploration of that is just an articulation and not outright denial. I would bucket “honest confusion” the same way. To be confused in the desert is to be confused in the desert, akin to throwing a non-swimmer into water. The confusion before faith (before swimming) is okay, I believe. That’s all I can postulate from my own meditation.
Anyway, we have to always remember that Christ went toe-to-toe against his own religion. These Christian denominations must always know Christ will reject them outright if they are misinterpreting (and how could anyone think otherwise is beyond me, going up against Judaism was his first major imperative).
He was a very serious activist, beyond.
Have you drawn the correct conclusions from that? It is certainly not the conclusion the Catholic Church draws which is what we are discussing here. You may think the Catholic church wrong about this, but that is a different argument.
> going up against Judaism was his first major imperative
Everything he said and taught was in the context of the Jewish tradition. He said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them" - Matthew 5:17
1 Timothy 6:20–21 – “O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding the profane novelties of words and oppositions of knowledge falsely so called, which some professing have erred concerning the faith.”
2 Timothy 4:3–4 – Warns of people turning from truth to myths, implying leaders must protect them from such influences.
Titus 1:9–11 – Bishops must “stop the mouths” of those teaching error, which includes preventing their works from spreading.
Acts 20:28–31 – Paul warns the Ephesian elders to guard the flock from false teachers who will arise “speaking perverse things.”
2 John 1:10–11 – “If any man come to you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into the house nor say to him, God speed you.”
Romans 16:17 – Mark and avoid those who cause doctrinal divisions; a list of banned works is a formal way of “marking” them.
Acts 19:19 – New converts in Ephesus publicly burn their occult books after coming to the faith.
Deuteronomy 13:1–5 – False prophets and their influence must be eradicated from the midst of the people.
Etc, etc, etc.
For that and other reasons there are plenty of things presented in the old testament as sins, which Christians don't consider to be sins. The most obvious example is probably rules around kosher food.
That is a straw man. I am sure you can find some one who says that somewhere out of billions of Christians, but it is effectively something no one says.
Nothing in there about "only if they meet certain moral standards".
I do agree that celebrating people because they do things that contradict Christ teachings (most commonly for accumulating wealth) is wrong.
> "Love your neighbour as yourself"
That is a very important part of that understanding of the meaning of love. While it also means that you love your neighbour in any circumstance, it importantly says that you should love the neighbour in the same way you love yourself. You love yourself even when you know you are evil and should die.
The stance of the (catholic) church is that you should damn the sin and love the sinner.
If you are arguing that intrinsically good things (reading, thinking, speaking) can be turned to bad purpose, then so can almost anything. If done with honest intent I cannot see how reading, thinking of speaking atheism is sinful.
Is there anything in the the Catechism that says otherwise.
its not obvious to me. I cannot see how an honestly held belief can be a sin. Is it evil to be an atheist because you believe there is no God? Clearly not, so how can you say its a sin?
When I honestly think I'm entitled to the money in the bank, does that mean I won't be judged?
If there are people that are atheists, because they have never heard of anyone telling them about god, then no that is not a sin. I doubt that applies to most people. Most atheists are atheists by choice, not because they wouldn't have access to information about god.
That's not choice though. I can't become a believer in god anymore than I can sprout wings. I can't just start believing something false. No one can make a decision to believe something on will alone. That's not how brains work.
Plain disagree.
True, you can not come to believe in god on your own. Neither can god make you believe on his own. You can still pray for it.
Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist.
> No one can make a decision to believe
Yes, you can't. You can make the decision to search however.
This is what it's like to be a strong atheist.
> Mother Teresa famously didn't believed in God's existence for decades. She still didn't became an atheist.
She did become a turturer of the most vulnerable people though. So... yea, I guess that's another type of argument against faith.
You just can't reason about the cause of reasoning, and the origin of the concept of cause and effect. You can dispute if that origin is more like a person that doesn't care about anything, a person that wants a relationship with you (Christianity/Judaism), a fundamental core concept (pantheism) or randomness (evolutionist).
You simply can't just know that. That's why it is a choice.
> She did become a turturer
What?
Ok, I've found a single article by the Guardian about a claim being filed is there any source about whether that is true?
You either missed the point entirely or are trying to obfuscate the issue. The cause of reason has no bearing at all. Reason and understanding are real things. Actually knowing something means you can't choose to believe the opposite. I can't choose to believe something I know is false. I can't choose to believe the sky is pink, or that rocks are soft, etc. That's nonsense.
> Ok, I've found a single article by the Guardian about a claim being filed is there any source about whether that is true?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position:_Mothe...
She was a horrible horrible person.
The cause of reason is what we call God. What you think that is, is very disputed, like I wrote in my previous comment.
When you think your God exists in the same way that the sky has a color, then I can assure you, that God doesn't exist. Atheists often take pride in rejecting "Gods" that a Christian also rejects and thinks they don't exist.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Missionary_Position:_Mothe...
That article presents multiple positions of that subject, I would probably side more with Leys there. Richness and poverty are not a goal in itself, but all means to an end. The poorest of the poor can have a richer life than a very rich. Mother Teresa was not a medical doctor and never claimed to be. She was treating peoples hearts, not their bodies.
The church doesn't think salvation means to be rich. Actually quite the opposite.
She was prolonging suffering in others because she thought suffering was beautiful. But when she got sick herself she immediately and at great expense stopped her own suffering.
> There is manifestly contained in this commandment AN IMPLICIT DENIAL OF ALL ATHEISM. The command, "Thou shalt have none other gods before Me," rests on the assumption that there is one true and living God. The law therefore forbids atheism as being a denial of God. (https://biblehub.com/sermons/auth/barrett/the_first_commandm...)
Who exactly is the source you cite for the claim atheism is breaking the commandment and therefore sinful? He does not seem to be a Catholic, let alone someone with authority to define the church's teachings. Can you link to a similar statement in the Catechism, a church Council, or at least a papal encyclical?
"One protestant preacher said" is not proof of what the Catholic Church believes.
That's a far stretch. How is "keep the sabbath holy" a "general principle" in any way? How is "thou shalt have no other gods before me"?
You can tell that it is from context as the laws just after that mandates a LOT of killing. For being "a witch" for example (which I assume is another mistranslation).
Yes the ten commandments are very much what defines sins.
> "One protestant preacher said" is not proof of what the Catholic Church believes.
Yes. From the Catholic Catechism: https://www.vatican.va/content/catechism/en/part_three/secti...
> 2125 Since it rejects or denies the existence of God, atheism is a sin against the virtue of religion.
Like to be saved, most Christians say, one must believe a litany of things about the historical figure of Christ. But that is just a history exam! It seems highly implausible that the God most people think of when they think of the Christian God would assign torture and torment based purely on a failure to come to a certain historical conclusion.
It is NOT the teaching of the Catholic church for a start:
https://uscatholic.org/articles/202212/what-does-the-church-...
https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_coun...
Nor do they believe hell to be a place of torture, but a state of separation from God. Read CS Lewis's Great Divorce if you are interested in a better metaphor than flames and torture.
> but it means that God labors tirelessly to bring all people — Christian or not — to salvation in Christ.
That is a hilarious quote. Only believers can say that with a straight face and not see the absolute madness it implies. How could "God labor[] tirelessly" to help everyone into salvation? That's on its face absolute garbage. Is God so incredibly weak that he could only show the path to salvation to 12 dudes 2000 years ago? If so, why should we worship that god, which seems like a pitiful figure compared to many nobel prize winners. I certainly would think we owe more worship to Normal Borlaug than a god that can't get his message across because he could only intervene in a credible way once in front of 12 people, and then never again.
That is the reason why Christianity is news-worthy. People wouldn't run around the world to tell you that God is that detached monarch who likes to govern humans. That's a concept a lot of cultures already had.
That doesn't mean God is "weak". It means applying human concepts to God just doesn't make sense. He will always be greater and above them.
> not see the absolute madness it implies
They absolutely agree with you there. That's why "they" flip out. That's what "they" find so important to tell you: absolute madness being true.
Except the book of Job. Where God explicitly tortures a person just to see if he can still be faithful to God. Kills his wife and kids! And when he is faithful, he gets what? His wife and kids back? No of course not, because those are property, he gets a NEW wife and NEW kids. Hahah, oops, all is forgiven right? No biggie.
> That doesn't mean God is "weak". It means applying human concepts to God just doesn't make sense. He will always be greater and above them.
God isn't even trying to show himself to exist. And for all the people of the world that are not convinced by incoherent babbling we shall all be condemned to suffer for eternity? That is neither logical, just, or even sane.
> Kills his wife and kids!
According to the book of Job, the suffering isn't done by God, but by the Devil.
> he gets a NEW wife and NEW kids.
His wife and kids are dead. Resurrecting people for the pleasure of another person, that's like puppets serving a master, it wouldn't be respectful and consequential.
> God isn't even trying to show himself to exist.
In my opinion he does. That's what the bible is; a collection of examples where God tries to show himself to exist. And he still does, every decade, every year, maybe even every day?
While its true that various pieces of Catholic "stuff" admit the possibility of salvation _without_ explicit belief in Christ, the vibes are still very much "if you know about Jesus/The Gospel then you probably need to believe in him to be saved, with some possible exceptions."
And a "state of separation" from God is expected to be a state of torture. Like maybe the idea of demons literally poking you in the eyeballs with hot pokers is out of fashion, but its clear Hell is still understood to be a deeply unpleasant place.
Different branches of Christianity are very different; you can’t assume that Catholics believe something just because most Protestants do.
Why does "statements" being stated in the past, preclude being about morality.
> But that is just a history exam!
Stating facts you don't believe won't get you anywhere. Believing is where much an active thing.
Historically, religions (when there in position of power of course) have not been especially kind with atheists..
- CCC 2125
Interestingly, I believe this means, from the Church's perspective, that the mere fact of my posting this makes this sin more imputable to those who read it! Sorry about that.
Anything else either comes from others or from older "laws".
But I hope the Catholic Church of the future will take the defense of its flock more serious again. Many books (and movies and TV series...) out there contain downright evil ideas, sometimes presented in dishonest ways. Perhaps some organized, ecclesiastically sanctioned system of reviews to guide readers would be feasible?
> The Index was enforceable within the Papal States, but elsewhere only if adopted by the civil powers, as happened in several Italian states.
Wow, such a hugely important list that nobody seemed to care about.
In addition to the books prohibited for their content, any books by "foreign agents" are prohibited too with the "foreign agent" designation assigned directly by the government, bypassing any court, to any minimally public person who disagrees with the government policies.
The new law also prohibits public demonstration (which beside movie theaters also includes websites with more than 100K users) of foreign movies not in agreement with the "traditional values of Russia" (which is whatever the government would declare as such).
That's me!
Copernicus was himself a priest and heliocentrism per se was never the problem. Even Galileo got into trouble for making the specific claim that it had been proved that the sun was the centre of the universe.
Turns out that just moving the coordinate system origin from the Earth to the Sun (e.g. literally just a change of perspective) replaces any complicated explanation for those complex movement patterns that are visible from Earth with a much simpler explanation (but a simpler explanation alone doesn't mean yet that it's more correct than the complicated explanation - it's at best more likely until proven). It took until Newton and Einstein to really understand why planets move predictably around the sun and not entirely erratically (AFAIK Newton still believed the movement to be preserved by intervention of God - don't quote me on that though).
So the initial stance of the Catholic Church to insist on geocentrism wasn't "unscientific" in the same sense that today's Flat Earthers, astrologists or anti-vaxxers are - compared to those, the 16th century Catholic Church was hardcore rationalist. The church finally recognized heliocentrism in the mid 18th century (so at least they only waited until Newton's death and not Einstein's death lol).
But hey, what's a few centuries in the history of the Catholic Church ;)
I thought the tide was caused by earth and moon rotating about a common center, so how is that wrong?
Galileo incorrectly claimed tides were caused by Earth's motion around the sun, ignoring the true cause: gravitational forces between the Earth and Moon, which were later explained by Newton
Christ specifically was impressed with a Centurion that sought his healing power (for another, not himself) without even being a Jew or follower of Christ. As in, Christ was simply amazed:
“Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.” (Matthew 8:10, NIV)
Descartes would haven fallen under such faith. I really need to study how the Catholic Church butchered so many interpretations.
Lio•5mo ago
Makes me think that if this list was still published it would have a sort of Father Ted effect[1] and act as a list of books you’d definitely want to read.
1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_Saint_Tibulus
smackeyacky•5mo ago
At the time I hoped he wasn't serious, sometimes it's hard to tell.
tzmudzin•5mo ago
Well, it’s in the name already. The fact it’s not called “anti-harassment training” always makes me chuckle…
dragonwriter•5mo ago
The Wikipedia article on the Index note that a related list (the _Index Expurgatorius_, which was at the time published separately but later had its function incorporated within the _Index Librorum Prohibitum_, and listed books subject to similar restrictions as the main index but only conditionally pending correction of specified errors) was called out for something like that use -- in 1627.
piaste•5mo ago
RGamma•5mo ago
Lio•5mo ago
Afterwards I couldn't really see what the fuss was about.
thomassmith65•5mo ago
mwedwards•5mo ago