frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Made with ♥ by @iamnishanth

Open Source @Github

fp.

Row Your Boat: How I made a boat physics simulation inside Oblivion Remastered

https://www.hallada.net/2025/08/24/row-your-boat.html
1•thallada•23s ago•0 comments

Show HN: Get insights from Hacker News on X

https://github.com/NiveditJain/WhatPeopleWant
1•nivedit-jain•34s ago•0 comments

Show HN: DataCompose – Composable data transformation primitives for PySpark

https://www.datacompose.io/
1•tccole•35s ago•0 comments

Show HN: DateTime Utilities

https://datetime-utils.rhyme-defuse-shock.workers.dev/
1•aster0id•1m ago•0 comments

China Influences Elections in America's Biggest City

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/25/nyregion/china-consulate-new-york-elections.html
1•nabla9•3m ago•0 comments

GeoAI.js: tiny models for Satellite and Drone data

https://github.com/decision-labs/geoai.js
1•sabman•4m ago•1 comments

Bert Maher (HHVM, PyTorch, Triton) Joins Anthropic

https://twitter.com/tensorbert/status/1959988769010127284
1•tosh•5m ago•0 comments

How We Migrated 16K Lines of HTML/CSS to Tailwind Using Claude Code

https://medium.com/@vdaubry/how-we-migrated-16k-lines-of-html-css-from-bootstrap-to-tailwind-usin...
1•vdaubry•6m ago•0 comments

Cat food made by Michelin star chef is on sale and people think it's delicious

https://whatsthejam.com/uk-news/cat-food-made-by-michelin-star-chef-is-on-sale-and-people-think-i...
1•speckx•7m ago•0 comments

Mortise and Tenon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon
1•nomilk•8m ago•1 comments

Functorio: Build Factorio factories in the Lean 4

https://github.com/konne88/functorio
1•adamnemecek•9m ago•0 comments

The choices facing Britain's next MI6 chief

https://www.economist.com/britain/2025/08/23/the-choices-facing-britains-next-mi6-chief
2•bookofjoe•9m ago•1 comments

Naming Wombie

https://sahar.io/naming-wombie/
1•indigodaddy•10m ago•0 comments

Google to make sideloading Android apps safer by verifying developer identity

https://www.androidauthority.com/android-developer-verification-requirements-3590911/
1•jmsflknr•10m ago•0 comments

US gov websites are getting "America by Design" redesign headed by DOGE insider

https://www.theregister.com/2025/08/25/trump_creates/
2•rntn•11m ago•0 comments

Breaking Europe's Intitutionalised Perfectionism Addiction

https://josef.cn/blog/perfectionism
4•josefchen•12m ago•1 comments

PDF Hell: Why Is Extracting Data Still a Nightmare? (2024)

https://unstract.com/blog/pdf-hell-and-practical-rag-applications/
1•naren87•13m ago•0 comments

Is Today's Self-Help Teaching Everyone to Be a Jerk?

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/25/style/self-help-books-columns-readers.html
1•mikhael•14m ago•0 comments

Trump signs order aimed at ending cashless bail, flag burning

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2025/08/25/trump-sign-orders-aimed-ending-cashless-bail-f...
2•hypeatei•14m ago•2 comments

3D Content Creation for Everyone

https://cr8-xyz.online/
1•thamsanqaDream•14m ago•1 comments

FTC warns tech giants not to bow to foreign pressure on encryption

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/ftc-warns-tech-giants-not-to-bow-to-foreign-pressu...
2•guerrilla•15m ago•0 comments

How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
1•pykello•17m ago•0 comments

Nvidia announces 4-bit training with NVFP4

https://developer.nvidia.com/blog/nvfp4-trains-with-precision-of-16-bit-and-speed-and-efficiency-...
1•opcode84•18m ago•1 comments

How to Argue with an AI Booster

https://www.wheresyoured.at/how-to-argue-with-an-ai-booster/
3•spking•20m ago•0 comments

Bacteria-based search for drugs against flu yields a potent channel blocker

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2502240122
1•PaulHoule•21m ago•0 comments

Ditch MCP's Middlemen with UTCP

https://nextgenprodman.substack.com/p/ditch-the-middlemen-with-utcp
3•juanviera23•23m ago•0 comments

Computing Technology I Use

https://verber.com/technology/
2•boolean•24m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Stagewise – frontend coding agent for real codebases

https://stagewise.io/
3•glenntws•25m ago•0 comments

SimpleX – the first messaging network operating without user identifiers

https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat
3•pykello•26m ago•0 comments

The MiniPC Revolution

https://jadarma.github.io/blog/posts/2025/08/the-minipc-revolution/
19•ingve•27m ago•6 comments
Open in hackernews

Hundreds lose water source in Colorado's poorest county with no notice

https://coloradosun.com/2025/08/25/costilla-county-water-cutoff/
99•mooreds•2h ago

Comments

mooreds•1h ago
Saw this on a social network with a mention of Paolo Bacigalupi's "The water knife", which is a great scifi book about a future with water wars.
bozhark•1h ago
We are already in the current water wars in some places around the globe
black6•43m ago
I haven't read The Water Knife, but I have read The Tamarisk Hunter, which I believe is related and paints a picture of the future of the American West with it's messed up water rights.
mooreds•31m ago
Yeah, the Tamarisk Hunter ( https://windupstories.com/books/pump-six-and-other-stories/t... ) is fantastic and set in the same world.
CodingJeebus•1h ago
> The fight over the water has pitted residents of Fort Garland who have plumbing and pay for metered water against those living outside the city limits with cisterns. The board of the Fort Garland Water and Sanitation District — which cut off water sales to rural residents Aug. 1 in a 3-2 vote that wasn’t even on its meeting agenda — has devolved into shouting matches and dysfunction.

I don't begrudge people who choose to live outside of municipalities in order to avoid taxes, but it's hard to empathize with them when the municipality they're not paying into makes a decision on behalf of their own voters/taxpayers. Hopefully the county/private sector resolves it soon.

Kapura•1h ago
they do pay into it, every time they buy the water. exchanging currency for valuable goods is a pretty well-established process.
jasonlotito•1h ago
They paid for the water that the municipality could afford to sell. They didn't pay into the municipality. If the municipality doesn't have excess water, why should they be forced to sell it?
nyeah•1h ago
They paid the municipality for the water, but they didn't pay the municipality. Got it.
lokar•34m ago
There is a very real legal and practical difference between paying for 100G of water, and paying for the right to buy 100G per week for the next N years.

Both have a price in the American west, and they did not pay the latter price.

nyeah•15m ago
Nobody is arguing otherwise, including the people interviewed in the article.

The claim was that these people didn't pay. That claim turns out to be incorrect.

michaelt•1h ago
Many countries have rural water users subsidised by urban water users, because rural users need 100 times as much pipe buried and maintained per customer, but everyone pays the same rate for water.

Of course, in my country we tolerate that - it's normal for food to flow into urban areas and money to flow out, water pricing is just an obscure element of that.

ajb•1h ago
These users were not in the piped network. They were driving to a station to collect water in tanks. If anything, that's cheaper to maintain.
potato3732842•1h ago
Even if it's not "cheaper" it's not the utility's problem what the user's hauling equipment costs.
bombcar•1h ago
I’ve never seen “rural” properties on “city” water unless a pipe happened to be running down the road for an existing development anyway.

Otherwise it’s all wells, sometimes tremendously deep.

bluGill•7m ago
Depends on the area.

I live in iowa - nearly everyone is on rural water because wells don't produce much water. I'm on a well and I can't water my lawn - after an hour my well is empty. My well is about a meter in diameter so that should be a lot stored. it would be $20k to extend the city water pipe to my lot.

i used to live in MN, there I knew farmers on a 5cm well who had no problem watering lawns, and 50 cows from the well.

in colorado where this story is water is less available than iowa. (most farms have a year round creek that could be treated to become drinkable)

khuey•56m ago
In this case it seems like it's the reverse. The article claims the "bulk water" customers are responsible for 15% of the system's revenue but consume less than 1% of the water delivered.
Steven420•1h ago
I believe they were paying for the water
nyeah•1h ago
10 cents a gallon, it says, and they haul it themselves.
jasonlotito•1h ago
Yes, they were buying water that the municipality could sell. And they got that water. The article suggests that the municipality is rationing its residents' water, so they don't have excess water to sell to outsiders.

Basically, the idea that I'm required to sell something is silly. No one said any contracts were broken. People got what they paid for.

sliken•28m ago
Right, but the system needed maintenance, and people would still need to ration water and not water their lawns, even if the water they sell to outsiders (less than 1%) stopped.
bluGill•5m ago
It is silly on the towns part as they lost far more. The rural restedents were paying a lot more than the locals.
thinkingtoilet•1h ago
I agree with some of what you said, but doing it without warning seems unnecessarily harsh. This quote from the article is pretty ripe though:

“I was always drawn to the mountains when I was traveling around the country and, to be honest, it was affordable,” she said. “It was off grid. It had a structure. It was away from people. The view is incredible. There’s climbing, hiking. It was somewhere I could afford and have land in Colorado.”

I wanted to live off the grid, but not that off the grid.

CodingJeebus•1h ago
I don't agree with how the city made the decision either. But the politics is pretty simple: you are going to support the interests of the people who voted for you over those who have no vote. And those who have no vote in this matter chose to have no vote by living outside of the city.
rbanffy•54m ago
> those who have no vote

They are residents of some governance unit and, therefore, vote somewhere. Is that possible to have no right to vote because you live in the wrong place?

CodingJeebus•48m ago
> Is that possible to have no right to vote because you live in the wrong place?

You don't have the right to vote in a city that you do not live in, and the water system is controlled by the city in this case. I assume they can vote for county offices, and the county is now determining how best they can serve their residents now that the city is unable to.

HankStallone•36m ago
I live a couple miles outside the borders of a town, so I don't get to vote in town elections, just county and township elections. However, I do all my shopping in town, use the town library, drive on the town's roads, belong to some organizations that do charitable work in town, etc. It's fair to say that I'm affected by town politics in a lot of ways, but I don't get in a say in those politics.

Sometimes the lines about what affects you are blurry, but the question of whether you get a vote isn't: you do or you don't. Maybe rural people should get a partial vote in town affairs, 3/5 or something like that.

jamiek88•17m ago
Do you pay town taxes? Or do you avoid paying those town taxes and still lament your lack of vote?
darth_avocado•1h ago
Not having reliable utilities comes with the territory. If you want to live off grid, you need backups of backups. And a reliable water source is one of them.
bluGill•15m ago
There is every reason to think a town water system is reliable and safe. They were not using enough water to matter to the town, and providing the town a nice source of income.
ghaff•1h ago
At least Internet/communications seems to increasingly have other options but some other largely essential utilities often don't.
CodingJeebus•1h ago
And sometimes, the private water company that services the county absolutely gouges customers because they're private and can get away with it. I saw this in Texas, where a guy I knew bought a house just outside the city limits to avoid taxes and then his water bill tripled compared to when he was on city water.
ghaff•1h ago
I'm not sure that, where I live, there's a lot of property outside of town/city limits. My water is about $200/year but I use very little outside water.
jimnotgym•57m ago
In the UK, because we are the kind of communist nightmare that terrifies the USA, there is no place outside the city that pays no property tax. Problem solved
nemomarx•52m ago
If you don't buy in bulk you'll spend more. Isn't that just markets?
CodingJeebus•44m ago
If you have captive customers and a product with relatively inelastic pricing and no competition, you can basically do whatever you want. That's also just markets
darth_avocado•56m ago
They are available, just not at the price point a lot of off the grid folks want to pay.
rbanffy•53m ago
And the article mentions well sharing is illegal, so pooling resources to dig a single well is not possible.

Why is well sharing illegal?

MangoToupe•1h ago
I grew up drinking from well water. People are seriously overestimating the amount that certain services need to be provided by a municipality.

Arguably, the issue here is that we're going to need to deal with the fact that many americans are bad at assessing personal risk. Living in the country is in fact expensive—there are fewer people to amortize costs across, especially in societies that don't have market-based housing (which is arguably why country living is considered cheaper). Water and electricity might be the easiest ways to see this, but it's stuff like "access to a hospital" that causes the most harm—a largely invisible cost until you actually need a hospital (or emergency response, or clearing roads from snow, access to postal delivery, etc etc....). At least you'll notice immediately if you don't have water.

CodingJeebus•1h ago
> I grew up drinking from well water. People are seriously overestimating the amount that certain services need to be provided by a municipality.

The article addresses this. In this part of CO, wells can cost $25k to drill without any guarantee of hitting water. It's not a panacea for these people.

jrgaston•23m ago
It’s not just Colorado. Used to live in rural northern California and digging a $25k well (typical price I was quoted) came with no guarantee that water would be found.
david38•1h ago
Except they didn’t. A proper municipality decision would have been discussed publicly with advance notice. This is like the board of directors of Toyota deciding to stop selling to the US without advance notice without input from the shareholders, the US, or advance notice.

It is 100% disingenuous. In no municipality in America is the source of water not considered a long term source where change comes with months of notice. In no municipality is said change executed in a meeting without prior notice to the public with public commenting allowed.

giantg2•1h ago
"but it's hard to empathize with them when the municipality they're not paying into makes a decision on behalf of their own voters/taxpayers."

They're paying for the water. It's not like they're getting it for free. Sure, the municipality could just not sell outside the municipality, but most utilities are forbidden from suddenly cutting off service due to health and safety concerns.

Someone•57m ago
Indeed. IMO, the municipality should have raised water prices for everyone to make supply match demand.

And that doesn’t mean water bought ‘on demand’ would have to be equally costly as what people who ‘subscribed’ to water pay.

sliken•32m ago
From the article is sounds more like, some town folk don't like not being able to water their lawns. Said folks targeted the people buying water, despite them being less than 1% of the water used. Not to mention apparently they are providing 45% of the towns tax revenue with their water purchases.

So an irrational decision fueling conflict.

usefulcat•21m ago
> apparently they are providing 45% of the towns tax revenue with their water purchases

"Revenue for the water sales to rural residents totaled $43,000 per year, about 15% of total revenue."

This means that 'total revenue' is about $287k. I would guess that's the revenue of the water system, not the town's entire tax base. Still a significant figure, but not 45% of the town's tax revenue.

lokar•1h ago
It’s more than that. There is a finite and shrinking supply of water. The water district has every right, and IMO an obligation to protect supply to existing users. They do this by limiting availability to others.

These people should not be living off the grid without securing water rights. This has been the system in the west since before statehood.

jimnotgym•55m ago
I don't read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction, but I have seen that plot more than once.
rbanffy•56m ago
> municipality they're not paying into

They probably pay more for their water than the people with metered service.

micromacrofoot•52m ago
unfortunately it seems you can't do society a la carte
nisegami•28m ago
About 1% of use, 15% of revenue according to article.
Kapura•1h ago
it is absolutely wild that a 3-to-2 vote that wasn't announced beforehand could put so many people at risk. obviously governments haven't acted to serve the people since at least Citizen's United, but this is like, society breaking down shit.
VWWHFSfQ•1h ago
> governments haven't acted to serve the people

The government in question here is the one representing the tax-paying residents of the town of Fort Garland. They voted to stop selling their scarce water supply to the non-tax-paying residents of unincoporated Costilla County. So it seems to me that the "government" served the interest of their constituents fairly.

jimnotgym•45m ago
'Fairly'. I would love to see them argue that with St Peter at the pearly gates. 'Well we drew this arbitrary line on the ground, and refused to sell water to people in the other side of the line so they could drink and survive. We did it so we could water our ornamental lawns'
troyvit•25m ago
How well does it serve those constituents? Shutting off the water cut off 15% of Fort Garland's water revenue (while reallocating 1% of its water). That's a big dent in a budget that was probably directly keeping those tax payers' taxes lower and providing them valuable services.

The water board didn't have to put it up to an immediate, unplanned vote that day, but they were inexperienced in dealing with "hollering" and waffled under a little pressure.

Add to it that they executed the short-term interests of their constituents with such ... alacrity that it put people in physical risk.

So who came out ahead here? I don't disagree that all those folks living off-grid really aren't living off-grid, and reality checks are healthy, but even a 2 week warning would have served everybody's interests, served the same FAFO lesson and maybe kept the animosity down a little.

bluGill•1m ago
I don't know Coloraeo laws but I suspect a state judge will issue an injunction on the city to sell water. Courts tend to look poorly on such things.
darth_avocado•1h ago
Seems like an everyone sucks here situation. People who bought houses and chose an off grid life in a water stressed area and did nothing to alleviate the situation, only add consumption. People who want to water their lawns and are unable to adjust their personal behavior in times of need. People with “I got mine” mentality who don’t want to share the space because they got there first and were able to exploit the resources to their desire. The town governance and realtors who keep allowing the sale of properties when there’s no water.
ryandrake•1h ago
Yea, this is what happens when the hyper-individualistic "everyone for themselves!" becomes the prevailing attitude. Selfishness becomes a structural weakness for the whole community.
mothballed•2m ago
Sounds like a market failure caused by using the government to meter water. In this case, the 'selfish' method would work better.

In a free market, the price of water rises so that there is no such thing as a "shortage." It would be uneconomical to waste water on lawns far before a significant amount of additional people would be unable to buy enough to drink.

nyeah•1h ago
"People who bought houses and chose an off grid life in a water stressed area and did nothing to alleviate the situation, only add consumption."

They paid money for the water.

lokar•1h ago
They paid (over and over) for one time water allotments.

The price of guaranteed access to water is much much higher, and they did not pay for it. It was probably not even for sale, and they should have known that. They are not entitled to anything.

tshaddox•41m ago
Do ordinary homeowners ever pay for guaranteed access to water? Surely not, right?
lokar•21m ago
Yes, in a way. They live within the bounds of a water district, which itself has water rights. These districts limit use (or the growth in use) by passing rules on the use (limiting the watering of grass, for example), or (fairly often in some places) limiting new service hookups. They won't let you connect if they don't think they can secure the supply long term.
barbazoo•20m ago
Nothing is "guaranteed", so no. People usually congregate where resources exist, that's often why towns are where they are, near water for example. Where I live for example, freshwater comes from a pretty stable water source. Paying the municipality to operate and maintain that is as close to "guaranteed" as it gets probably.

Once the circumstances change, we'll have to adapt.

lokar•6m ago
Water law in the US southwest is wild. The right to flows of water, into the future, is treated as a private property right and is bought and sold. Municipal water systems normally acquire the rights (and arrange transport).
qwertylicious•14m ago
As a homeowner I literally pay a fee every month to fund the construction and maintenance of the infrastructure that gets water to my home.

If that water supply is cut off without valid reason, there is a complaint mechanism with the local utility commission where the issue can be heard and resolved.

I also live in the municipality where my water is supplied, and therefore am represented by its government.

Therefore I am both economically and politically invested in that infrastructure.

Unfortunately none of this is true for the folks in this article.

Is that a "guarantee"? No. Nothing is guaranteed. But it's far better than the arrangement these folks operated under.

nyeah•15m ago
They knew they didn't have guaranteed access. It's in the article.
darth_avocado•1h ago
Well, what happens when 300 people move to a town where there’s only enough water for 100 people? Is just paying money enough?
edoceo•55m ago
If money isn't solving the problem you're just not using enough.

It's sad & true & and I hate it.

usefulcat•29m ago
"Fort Garland uses 120 acre-feet of water per year — that’s 120 acres covered by 1 foot of water. Sales to people in cisterns account for about 1 acre feet per year, Pacheco said. Revenue for the water sales to rural residents totaled $43,000 per year, about 15% of total revenue."

Lack of water is not the problem here, especially now that the town's pump has been fixed.

rpcope1•31m ago
There land did not come with any water rights (something you've got to ask about for any land out here not already hooked up to a metro water system), and thus you are entirely at the mercy of others and not guaranteed anything. Why you would ever choose to build/buy a home without some relatively senior water rights or a metered water connection is entirely beyond me.
potato3732842•1h ago
I can't speak to this particular county but the vibe I get from friends of mine who live in this part of Colorado is that the municipalities/counties will do anything/everything they can to stick it to the off grid crowd who are seen as poor and trashy in the best case and evil dangerous sov-cits, anarchists or other anti-government types in the worst case when in reality many/most of them simply wanted to live in BFE and it's not a money or ideological thing and they just want to do whatever works. They buy water from someone who trucks it in no different and with no more thought than they buy propane or pay for their septic to be pumped and trucked out.

Like every small town/county, I bet if you follow the trail of financial and ideological interests of the parties involved you'll find that the personalities involved are motivated by more than just whatever their oath of office is. Seeing as there's only one water hauler I'd look into who he pissed off.

munchler•1h ago
BFE = Butt f!ck Egypt, which means “in the middle of nowhere”. I had to google it.
Bender•59m ago
Bum not butt. [1] I know, it seems like it's the same but it really isn't

[1] - https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=BFE

pavel_lishin•51m ago
What's the difference?
Bender•45m ago
Slang history. In the US BFE is well established as Bum-Fuck-Egypt to mean in the middle of nowhere. Explicitly stating Butt-Fuck-Egypt leans towards sexual imagery and is not part of the slang. I completely understand the confusion as bum is commonly used in the UK to mean butt. Someone on the linked site even got it wrong.

As an example of slang differences, in the US it is not uncommon for someone to say "Pardon me" when they are getting the way whereas people in England might assume they farted. Or another example where communications go wrong, someone in the US or the UK might give a thumbs-up when they agree with results or an idea but in some parts of Africa that is a death threat.

dpoloncsak•19m ago
FYIW, Tri-state area born-and-raised here. We all said 'Bumble-fuck nowhere'
Bender•16m ago
I like it.
ethagnawl•56m ago
Oh, this is absolutely true and covered in detail in the excellent book: _Cheap Land Colorado: Off-Gridders at America's Edge_.
HankStallone•24m ago
The bit that jumped out at me was "a 3-2 vote that wasn’t even on its meeting agenda." Seems like we're seeing an increasing number of cases where small-time officials who used to work largely unseen because no one went to meetings of things like the local water board, are getting resentful because now they're on video or citizens are starting to show up and ask questions, and they're not responding well to all the democratic involvement. So you get sneaky tricks like sneaking things into the agenda at the last minute, or outright lies like accusing citizens of threats when they were just asking questions.
chomp•3m ago
I don’t think you can put pump breakage on an agenda. Sometimes emergencies require emergency action.
louwrentius•1h ago
After reading the article I come to the conclusion that this was never really about water. There wasn't even a water shortage, only a technical issue that would be resolved.

This was about some people on the waterboard not being able to manage angry - semi-aggressive- people properly.

And now those people can irrigate their lawns while others can't even drink, wash or cook.

lokar•28m ago
I agree, none of this was really necessary. The board/city was broadly within their rights not to sell (and down the road, as water supplies become more strained they may in fact not have extra water to sell).

But the board handled the situation very poorly. The job of being on a board like this is often to sit patiently while people complain and perhaps yell. Try to keep things calm and moving along, let everyone make their statement.

They should have just accepted the feedback and then scheduled discussion on various options for some future meeting, with a final vote even further out.

duxup•1h ago
Sounds like the water pump failed, and while it was being fixed restrictions were put in place for everyone. Some folks didn't like the restrictions and they blamed the folks who came to buy water because they live off the grid nearby, even if it does not appear those sales would change any of the restrictions.

Sad situation. Fear of outsiders and other people often pop up when people are stressed.

bluGill•17m ago
Those folks cut off used 1% of the water but paid 15% of the costs. They were paying far more than their share, but got the blame.
duxup•2m ago
I went home to a somewhat rural area recently. They're very upset about a local hospital is closing, meanwhile they vote solidly for politicians who want to cut people's health insurance off.

Human nature is disheartening at times.

dfsegoat•1h ago
Colorado Water access law is truly crazy and arcane in some cases (such as this, it would seem).

Source: Had a friend in college that interned for a group of attorneys in Western, CO whose entire practice was around water access rights.

She explained to me some of the ridiculous things that neighbors requiring common water access could do to each other - based purely on who was using the water first.

mooreds•1h ago
I don't think it is just Colorado. The water law in the west (of the USA) is all messed up. Or at least was created in a different time with different needs and different rainfall.

https://extension.unr.edu/publication.aspx?PubID=3750 has more details.

lazide•1h ago
It’s messed up anywhere there are periods of sufficiency and insufficiency, no matter what the rules are.

Either ‘first user wins’, like here, or ‘all users get allotment’ - in which case you can be screwed by someone building a new subdivision, or ‘gov’t entity allocates’ in which case corruption/payoffs become the norm, etc, etc.

At least it’s better than ‘shoot anyone using your well without permission’ like used to be the middle eastern standard eh?

amanaplanacanal•1h ago
I'm sure it made sense at the time. It was essentially homesteading. Just like you could grab a chuck of untamed land and fence it, plow it, build on it, and then you owned it. Water worked the same way.

Of course this ignored the people who were already living there, but they had the wrong skin color and religion.

masklinn•59m ago
> Or at least was created in a different time with different needs and different rainfall.

And straight up lies. The Colorado water compact “average flow” was known to be nonsense when it was established, but politicians ignored the engineers’ estimates of long-term averages which were significantly lower than the figure the compact is based on.

taminka•47m ago
https://youtu.be/XusyNT_k-1c?si=8R8oXaj8Itmwxw0V good overview in video form :)
fred_is_fred•25m ago
It makes complete sense based on when the laws were passed. You dam a creek and your neighbors cows starve.
njovin•17m ago
The Water Knife is a fun fiction book about exactly this.

The synopsis is that in the near-future water in the west is SCARCE and there are dueling factions (NGOs, state governments, criminals) fighting legally and physically over water, including digging through old libraries and government offices for water right contracts that may be older than the known ones to usurp the standing owner's right.

jibal•1h ago
Massive amounts of groundwater are being sucked out of Colorado by Chinese and ME companies that, for instance, grow alfalfa crops and then ship them to their home countries.
lokar•26m ago
Exports of alfalfa should not be allowed
jibal•12m ago
I agree.
os2warpman•1h ago
One of my favorite genres of non-fiction is when people who claim they value independence and off-griddyness are forced to be independently off-grid.

"No no we meant off-grid in every aspect save one!"

I know these people, half my family is these people. I've listened to them rail against the man for decades and decades and decades.

When you tell them that the invisible hands of the free market will gladly sell them the bootstraps they require, they get mighty angry.

hollywood_court•1h ago
Reminds me of people who hate 'socialism' but spend their entire lives in the military.
petralithic•51m ago
Do workers in the military control their means of production? If not, there's no relation to socialism.
lokar•38m ago
In modern US politics, "socialism" is the Government giving people anything for free.
vondur•16m ago
That still doesn't make sense, the Government is paying people to be in the military.
belter•1h ago
You will see the same with "stable-coins" and Wall Street move to Crypto...
greenavocado•56m ago
That's just another profit making scam masquerading as legitimate business activity
thrance•1h ago
It's a fantasy, an aesthetic. There is no living off-grid when you depend on a giant gas-guzzling truck with a thousand moving parts for your every needs.
darth_avocado•58m ago
Off the grid folks are cosplaying the Amish lifestyle
greenavocado•54m ago
The Amish do not live off grid generally speaking
15155•54m ago
How about an electric vehicle, a few dozen kW of solar, and a drilled well?
pavel_lishin•54m ago
Slightly better, but how do you get parts to repair your vehicle or anything else?

There's virtually no such thing as "off-grid", no such thing as a human being who lives totally unreliant on people around them in the modern age, unless you can carry everything you own in both hands, and can survive with nothing else. And there's damn few people out there living like that.

hdgvhicv•46m ago
“No man is an island”
vel0city•45m ago
EVs will still need some maintenance. Are you planning on making your own tires?
pavel_lishin•54m ago
But they have been buying the bootstraps. They were buying water from the town, and they were perfectly aware that it wasn't something the town was obligated to provide.

The problem seems to be that the townsfolk want to water their lawn:

> “These men were brought in because I had put them on a water restriction schedule,” Pacheco said in an interview. “They are upset they can’t water their lawns while people can’t have water to actually live.”

They're not completely cut off; they just have to significantly further to purchase their water, and some of them do:

> Some are driving two hours to Pueblo to buy water. Many have been getting water in the town of Blanca, where officials offered — only as an emergency solution until the end of August — to let people fill up water tanks from a hose connected to a fire hydrant.

I don't think this is a situation where we're laughing at people who are in the Find Out phase.

mothballed•25m ago
Many people haul water in Colorado because the bootstrapping method of drilling your own well is now heavily restricted, and of course the same people stopping you from drilling the well (government) is happy to monopolize and sell you the water.

Meanwhile you can use percussion drilling to drill a well of virtually arbitrary depth, at very little cost, as was done by the Chinese for thousands of years to depths well below 500ft with not much more than bamboo and rocks.

potato3732842•54m ago
You are projecting an ideology onto these people for no reason other than to satisfy your own bias and/or earn a few cheap upvotes from likeminded readers.

99.9% of these people are not living "off grid" for any particular ideological reason. They are living off grid because where they live is simply too dispersed and/or poor for there to be a grid. They've either always lived this way or adapted when they moved there.

Buyer: "but if it's off grid where do I get water"

Realtor: "there's services you pay for that truck it in and fill your tank, just like propane or heating oil"

Buyer:"oh, ok"

VWWHFSfQ•42m ago
> Debi and John Marks moved from Florida to build their dream home in the high desert of Costilla County. They bought property in the ranches two years ago with plans to build a retirement home and live off the grid among the pines

...

> “We wanted to be as independent as possible, and so we searched all over the state for property that would fit our needs, and this fit the bill,” Debi Marks said.

...

> Amanda Ellis bought a house in Costilla County five years ago to live off the grid.

These are people specifically moving to this unincorporated county in order to live "off the grid". This sounds ideological to me.

os2warpman•40m ago
>You are projecting an ideology onto these people for no reason other than to satisfy your own bias and/or earn a few cheap upvotes from likeminded readers.

No, I read what they said during the interviews used in the article.

potato3732842•36m ago
Which you didn't quote or reference and who's commentary was included because it is noteworthy, eye catching or controversial, not because it is representative.

It ain't no different than the 5am news person interviewing people off the streets and only the "interesting" responses making the 7am news.

If we want to compare family anecdotes I can trot out my own but that's not the point.

energy123•50m ago
Look who doesn't like solar power, the most pro-independence energy source. It's a solution that decouples you from everyone for a good 20 years.
pkulak•2m ago
In the words of the immortal Lebowski, they're more off-grid than you, Dude.
abullinan•1h ago
If you want to LARP as a pioneer maybe do some research about their mortality rates.

But cynicism aside, this is just the beginning. This will scale to a lot of the US. Even folks in the burbs.

tharmas•27m ago
Even though we know its coming, when it does come, the suddenness of it will still take many of us by surprise, despite all the warnings.
ramesh31•1h ago
The land is cheap in the San Luis for a reason. It can't support much life. Ultimately these are not multi-generational folks being driven out. They are newcomers who have overwhelmed the existing infrastructure.
lokar•27m ago
And access to utilities is on of the only tools that counties have to discourage unsustainable development.

Not every part of the continent should be covered with homes.

scythe•1h ago
>the pump broke

Saved you a click.

Fort Garland sits just below Blanca Peak, the highest in the Sangre de Cristo, which receives a ton of precipitation. So what's the problem?

The pump broke.

There are water issues in the San Luis Valley. It's a cold desert which happens to be the best place in the United States to grow a recently popular cash crop: quinoa. About 77% of water use in the region is for agriculture, not weird prepper cisterns. This supply is strained, but the current drought status is only D1.

TFA is really more of a closing-frontier issue than a drought issue. The states northeast of Pennsylvania manage all of their land via townships. Everywhere else you can get these weird municipal-unincorporated disputes. See also: Walmart locating outside city limits to avoid taxes.

superdisk•1h ago
Kind of funny that this warrants a news article. I've been living in South Africa for the last couple years and this is basically just normal. The municipality just doesn't pay the water bill, so we don't have water half the time. What everyone does is install a giant tank and pump at their house so they can shower when the water is out. How quickly you get used to it...
wahnfrieden•1h ago
This is the standard of the richest country in the world
superdisk•1h ago
This was the standard of South Africa as well not too long ago. I was just musing that it's funny how quick you get acclimated to complete dysfunction.
0xbadcafebee•1h ago
> Others are wondering whether to scrap plans to build on their property, leaving home for showers and limiting their toilet flushes.

> The pump failed in June, before the system’s planned overhaul. Townspeople were asked to use the “bare minimum” of water — flush the toilets, but don’t water the lawn.

It blows my mind they are using flushing toilets in the desert. Composting toilets are not some new-fangled technology, and require zero water. You live in a desert! Come on!

> “These men were brought in because I had put them on a water restriction schedule,” Pacheco said in an interview. “They are upset they can’t water their lawns while people can’t have water to actually live.”

Watering lawns? In the desert? How is this not illegal? This feels like the entire climate change "controversy" in a nutshell: people so brazenly into the abuse of their own resources that they will fight to continue wasting them until they no longer exist.

ytrt54e•1h ago
I thought it would be MAGA but no, apparently it is a Democratic stronghold
jimnotgym•1h ago
They think they were an angry mob before, now they have cut off one of their essentials for life. I suspect they could get rather angrier...
jerlam•1h ago
> poorest county

> multistory homes with sweeping decks facing Blanca Peak

> The water crisis has forced older residents to contemplate selling their dream homes, where they had planned to retire

The article's framing seems to waver between "how dare you do this to the poor and starving" and "how dare you do this to the older, richer retirees". I'm sure there are people of all kinds affected by the water issue but it's not as simple as the clickbaity title suggests.

ChrisMarshallNY•48m ago
It’s definitely an article with a personal PoV.

But, as an older person, I am not interested in living somewhere that I can’t get an ambulance or quick access to medical treatment.

pavel_lishin•52m ago
Anyone immediately think of Pump Six, by Paolo Bacigalupi, when they got to this part of the story?

> Salina Pacheco, who is the manager of the town water district and training to become a water system operator, knew it was coming. She had been talking to the five-member water board about it for two years and had helped secure a $105,000 grant from the Colorado Department of Local Affairs to upgrade the water system, which was suffering from “extreme water hammer” because water traveling through the pipes in opposite directions was colliding.

> The pump failed in June, before the system’s planned overhaul.*

AnotherGoodName•52m ago
This thread is getting weird and with a lack of understanding; There's absolutely no reason to have a negative attitude to people wanting to buy water. I grew up 5mins from the largest shopping center in the southern hemisphere and we still had to occasionally buy water when there was a drought since we were on a rural stretch of road just off the main highway.

You don't have to live far out of town to have no town water. The pipes don't go far out of city/town limits at all.

You always get periods of prolonged drought even in otherwise perfectly reasonable self-sustainable properties.

This isn't some "HAHAHA suck it libertarians" attitude. This is a "anyone who lives slightly outside of town wanting to buy water and being told no" type of situation.

lokar•23m ago
I don't have a negative attitude towards people who live off wells, or local surface water, or some place that sells it to tank back.

What I have a negative attitude towards is developing housing in an area of the arid western US without access to water. Water rights (the right to buy water) has controlled development here since before statehood. It's very simple: you don't develop without water rights, it's irresponsible and puts an unfair social burden on others.

paulnpace•48m ago
Scrolling throug the comments here, one could conclude the HN community finds it to be justified to remove water access without warning to people they find disageeable.
rbanffy•42m ago
I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.unwater.org/water-facts/human-rights-water-and-s...

It’s distressing to see human rights violations in the richest country on earth.

rpcope1•36m ago
I don't know what people expect moving to south central Colorado, maybe they're taken in by the "cheap land" posts that flood everything like craigslist for Costilla and Alamosa counties. If you've never been there, it's amazing anything grows on that land at all (it's just high desert) and like the article says the people are really poor there; it's an entirely different world than the front range that people seem to extrapolate to the rest of Colorado. Everybody feels entitled to live in Colorado, but our problems are going to come to a head sooner or later when we face the reality that even the front range doesn't frankly have enough water for all of it's citizens or it's ag activies (and we keep building more and more crazy dam and pipeline projects). I personally believe we're going to see a major crisis level drought in the front range in the next 20-30 years that ends up potentially causing a significant population shrinkage in our metros, and it will likely be even more acute elsewhere in the state (as the front range metro basically gets preferential treatment to everywhere else).
jamiek88•9m ago
“ Agriculture uses approximately 80% of the Colorado River's water, with irrigation for crops like alfalfa and hay being the largest consumers.”

Alfalfa takes a massive 33% of that water.

Most of that alfalfa goes to the Middle East.

But sure, yeah metro areas getting the blame, as is tradition.

0b110907•24m ago
A book with stories about different people that have settled in that area https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60206504-cheap-land-colo...

Overall it seems tough living around there, large parcels of land were divided and sold 30+ years ago via mail order and land values haven' tracked inflation in a lot of cases. A lot of people moving there for a second chance or fresh start.

rfwhyte•5m ago
Some context it seems a lot of folks in these comments have missed is that the off grid folks apparently use 1/120th of the town's water, yet contribute 15% of the town's water revenue. So effectively they are subsidizing the towns water system while using an insubstantially tiny fraction of the towns water, and even then the townies shut them out for reasons.