This lack of empathy extends to many other areas: Drug addiction, homelessness, rights for marginalized groups, etc. So long as there is a profit motive, these things will suffer due to the selfishness of those who don't (yet) receive a benefit.
I wonder how this study controlled for hospital selection though. In locations with multiple hospitals available, ambulances route patients on multiple factors... Perhaps there are factors leading to these hospitals receiving patients less likely to survive.
Additionally, PE often purchases distressed companies, so the likely alternative to a PE purchase of a hospital is a closed hospital. In some cases, closing the hospital would be better, but probably not all of them.
This seems extremely high.. Ireland with free public healthcare for example is ~6%.. I think the largest in Europe, by a lot, is Germany? ~13%.
Health providing shouldn't be a for-profit endeavor. Certainly shouldn't be in the stock market and it absolutely shouldn't be comingled with "insurance"
What keeps me from bringing my business too the competition like I do in every other market? The main constraint I see right now is that there are very few, but large hospitals and my insurance only pays for me to go to even fewer of those. However, competition already works (if the patient makes an effort) for some planned procedures like CT scans where you can safe up to 80% in my own experience.
Is this a product of inflated prices ? Or is this research funding for example ? I'm curious what the complete definition for Healthcare spending actually is.
US public healthcare expenditures are similar to what some developed countries with fully public universal healthcare have—and the private expenditures on top are more than the public costs.
People sometimes joke about the US having gaps in healthcare because of defense or other spending, but the fact is the US effectively pays vast amounts of money to create those gaps, rather than having them because of some resource constraints.
There are still people trying to behave ethically within this framework, but it's hard when the framework itself is so corrupted by profit motives which should never have been there in the first place. Direct providers should be running the show, not financiers. They need to be aware of how to balance the books within reason and be paid properly, but beyond that it should be much more patient focused. We definitely don't need so many profit-taking leeches in all the places we have them now.
- health adjusted quality of life metrics and the way they are impacted by various diagnoses
- healthspan metrics
- patient satisfaction
- employee satisfaction
Ultimately, capitalism is not necessarily at odds with providing efficient high qualty healthcare. But we have to decide what matters. If death rate were the only relevant metric, medicine would be practiced much differently.
What would the situation look like where revenue is better directed to shareholders than to care?
Everything else you mentioned can be manipulated in bad faith, especially by a profit-motivated organization.
if they slash staffing and make it hard to schedule in a reasonable amount of time, patients with low-risk issues will just skip going altogether. Or, if they have the means, go to a nicer hospital.
The rich don’t care about anyone but their financial advisor.
>These “high-markup hospitals” (HMH), which comprised about 10% of the total the researchers examined, charged up to 17 times the true cost of care. By contrast, markups at other hospitals were an average of three times the cost of care.
>They also have significantly worse patient outcomes compared with lower-cost hospitals, new UCLA research finds.
NURSING HOMES: Owner Incentives and Performance in Healthcare: Private Equity in Nursing Homes ( https://www.nber.org/papers/w28474
>After instrumenting for the patient-nursing home match, we recover a local average treatment effect on mortality of 11%. Declines in measures of patient well-being, nurse staffing, and compliance with care standards help to explain the mortality effect.
derbOac•1h ago
I'm not surprised by this finding, although I find in economics and healthcare forums the results tend to be misused (at least in my opinion), because it gets used to argue against any deregulation or cost cutting, instead of cost cutting of the type that tends to happen for the benefit of investors and shareholders, rather than cost cutting of the type that increases healthcare options and access.
palmotea•1h ago
Don't hand-wave your claim of overregulation, be specific and name the regulations you think should go away.
pfdietz•58m ago
Regulations that prevent construction of new hospitals without some sort of "demonstration of need".
myrmidon•49m ago
Isn't that just more infrastructure, administration overhead and staffing that victims have to pay for, in the end?
wat10000•44m ago
ceejayoz•43m ago
wat10000•29m ago
ceejayoz•24m ago
Tell that to the waves of cupcake shops, craft breweries, and now cannabis dispensaries in my area.
wat10000•19m ago
goodpoint•3m ago
palmotea•40m ago
I'm not defending the "Certificate of Need" regulations, but your thinking is sloppy: healthcare is not a product like bananas. That analogy will mislead more than it will inform.
If every person has to buy 10 bananas a day or they will die, the town with 5 stores may have more expensive bananas, because they can just raise prices to cover the excess capacity and people will pay.
wat10000•24m ago
There are two things that set healthcare apart here. One is that sometimes people need unusual treatments to stay alive that are extremely expensive, and our desire not to let people die is at odds with the normal market mechanism where products that cost too much just don't get purchased. The other is that sometimes people have emergencies so urgent they can't really choose their provider.
But the vast majority of healthcare doesn't fall into those categories, and normal market mechanisms work fine for those. Competition would lower prices for most healthcare just like it does for food and everything else.
ajmurmann•16m ago
The same works for non-emergency surgery as well. Take a look at https://surgerycenterok.com/ it's such a breath of fresh air to see the full price for each procedure right there. People travel there from all over the country to get needed procedures. So competition clearly works but the system doesn't really enable it. For example insurers don't want to work with the linked center because they won't give them rebates but charge everyone the same price. More details: https://www.econtalk.org/keith-smith-on-free-market-health-c...
h2zizzle•36m ago
cogman10•31m ago
The labor to produce, ship, and shelve the banana determine it's cost along with whatever margin the store that sells the banana is willing to take. Walmart, for example, could be perfectly willing to sell a banana at a loss if they think that will get you in to buy a TV.
This is why dollar stores exist and often kill off local grocers. They can sell a lot of non-perishable goods at a loss and win back by understaffing the location and overcharging on non-perishable goods.
I live in a city with probably around 50 different clinics, but they are all associated with 3 major medical groups. It isn't a lack of buildings that's preventing competition.
anubistheta•31m ago
myrmidon•28m ago
Unlike grocery stores, hospital ERs don't get frequent repeat customer interaction, so that makes the competition aspect basically completely inapplicable.
As typical ER visitor,
- You wont know what "quality" of care you are going to get beforehand
- You will have very limited capability of selecting the hospital
- You will be unable to compare prices beforehand
So why would any of those 5 hypothetical hospitals decrease prices?
More competitors won't do shit if the market is uncompetitive by design.
esafak•22m ago
We do need price transparency though.
wat10000•21m ago
Yes, there are some kinds of care that aren't very amenable to competitive market forces, but the vast majority is.
cogman10•17m ago
If you go in because of a killer stomach ache you could end up needing a CT and emergency surgery. Or you could end up getting some pepto-bismol.
And if you are taken there by an ambulance (which you also have no ability to compare any price to). You'll be sent to the hospital the paramedics decides to drop you off at.
There is an inherent complete lack of information when going in for a medical situation that can't be fixed by the free market. You need (or believe you need) treatment now. There's no way for you to know what that treatment will be.
Even going in for an annual physical can be the exact same. Some dicey numbers on your blood work and you might be looking at some huge unplanned bills that are completely unavoidable.
shawn_w•16m ago
Oh yes they do. I can think of any number of patients I'm familiar with who end up in the ER multiple times a week. Practically daily for some people. And a few who are known for getting discharged from one hospital and immediately heading to another nearby one.
jasonlotito•9m ago
2. One offers bananas to walk in visitors, but the others have a minimum wait time of 1 month to a year.
3. One is a mile away. One is an hour away. Still in the same county.
4. None of them offer an easy to understand menu. You can't just order a banana. You ahve to order Banana Services and meet with Banana specialists. You can't take the banana home.
5. You wake up in a banana shop and you didn't get a chance to shop around before being presented with a bill. They don't take your payment of choice, so it's 10 times as expensive.
6. Some won't let you buy a banana. Instead, you have to buy a banana service. Per banana pricing is the lowest here, but the total cost is higher if you just want a banana.
Which banana store do you buy from? A, B, C, D, or E?
I'll take the first choice you make and let you know if you picked correctly. Anything other than the correct choice is a failure.
taeric•8m ago
Which is all to say, my gut is it is far more complicated than that allows for. Not a useless model, but also not a very actionable one.
pfdietz•38m ago
myrmidon•12m ago
If you are arguing that the customer is not paying for inefficient providers, then I strongly disagree.
Customers always end up paying for inefficient supply chains. If you end up with an inefficient allocation of hospitals/doctors (local overprovisioning), it's always gonna be the patients that are gonna pick up the bill for this in the end through higher average prices.
Inefficiencies are doubly bad because you potentially don't just pay the pure cost for the inefficiency (middlemen, waste etc.) you even pay for margins on top.
I think the assumption that such inefficiencies could lead to actual savings for customers (by magically making the providers decrease their profit margins) is highly overoptimistic.
vlovich123•36m ago
A “need” certificate is similar to the cap that med schools have - it’s effectively a pricing cartel to keep salaries/revenue high
milesskorpen•26m ago
Overall we have a crisis of hospitals shutting down, not a crisis of oversupply.
jplrssn•11m ago
I don't see how this could be true for emergency visits. Would an ambulance drive you to the cheapest hospital within some fixed radius?
hamdingers•2m ago
opo•26m ago
https://ij.org/report/striving-for-better-care/overwhelming-...
h2zizzle•38m ago
The problem is not restrictions on medical facility construction, it's inefficient use of what we already have.
In general, America has an issue with defaulting to "building new", as if we have an everlasting greenfield, rather than careful provisioning of the already overbuilt infrastructure base. Capitalists love being freed of prior obligations, with no regard for how they contribute to an even more unwieldy set of obligations in the future. Enough. You can't just do as you like. Help solve the actual problem.
pfdietz•37m ago
https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/
alostpuppy•31m ago
pfdietz•30m ago
Any other goal lines you want to redraw? Let's get that out of the way now instead of going back and forth.
(To answer: in my personal experience Illinois also has such a regulation.)
ch4s3•23m ago
kotaKat•25m ago
jasonlotito•21m ago
Regardless, you have to explain how removing CON solves the PE issue mentioned when states without CON had the same issues.
viscountchocula•52m ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certificate_of_need
betaby•39m ago
Source: https://thedailyeconomy.org/article/how-congress-created-the... and many others
miltonlost•12m ago
"The increased deaths in emergency departments at private equity-owned hospitals are most likely the result of reduced staffing levels after the acquisitions, which the study also measured, said Dr. Zirui Song, a co-author and associate professor of health care policy and medicine at Harvard Medical School."
The issue with American healthcare is the profit-seeking capitalists.
jwilber•6m ago
johnisgood•37m ago
palmotea•33m ago
What, specifically? Just abolish them all, and return to the pre-1938 status quo (e.g. marketing radium water to cure what ails ya)? Or specific reforms to make the drug approval processes more effective?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radithor
jamil7•23m ago
Sounds like something the current US health secretary might actually like.
cogman10•22m ago
Turn it into a pure R&D effort and not one driven by profit.
ajmurmann•13m ago
cogman10•3m ago
Same way the NHS previously funded medical research. Grants and grant review. You can expand that department and effort.
> What's their skin in the game and their feedback mechanism?
Believe it or not, some people just want to research and look into cures for diseases. Shocking I know. Feedback can be reviews of their work and blackballing bad actors that consistently kick out bad research.
> Why will they do a better job picking what to research than current pharmaceutical companies?
Because they already are. Pharmaceuticals aren't doing the majority of research, they are taking NHS funded research and running it through FDA approval.
Ozempic, for example, didn't come from pharmaceutical research, it came from grant research into lizard spit.
mothballed•20m ago
End result is a gazillion hood rats showing up to the emergency room with an "STD" or the flu "muh 20 hour a week job that provides no health insurance needs a doctors note" and meanwhile the dying guy has to deal with the drain those people impose on resources, not all of which can be mitigated away by triage. And the actually sick people who have something they can get sued for are terrified to go because now they have to subsidize all the bad actors and they get gutted to do so, so they wait until they're about dead to show up.
hiddencost•16m ago
mothballed•16m ago
gdbsjjdn•10m ago
mothballed•8m ago
cogman10•8m ago
Or maybe they are dealing with hospital staff being openly hostile to them and calling them "hood rats" and claiming they are just there with STDs and the flu?
> they have to subsidize all the bad actors
You're right, we are all subsidizing the health insurance and private medical industry.
The problem you describe "People go to the ER because they are uninsured while working" isn't a problem with people being lazy terrible people, it's a problem with the entire US healthcare which binds insurance and healthcare to employment.
You want to make the whole thing cheaper and more efficient? Then nationalize health insurance either by expanding medicare or medicaid to everyone (I prefer medicare). Then you won't see these "hood rats" using the ER for more minor medical issues because they can simply afford to go to a clinic instead.
mothballed•2m ago
I never called them that until I left health care. I know I could get fired for telling the truth.
>and claiming they are just there with STDs and the flu?
It was their own claim, usually true.
> The problem you describe "People go to the ER because they are uninsured while working" isn't a problem with people being lazy terrible people, it's a problem with the entire US healthcare which binds insurance and healthcare to employment.
I've never said it wasn't. Why are you so hostile in tone to the truth? You're like the sister comment, when you hear the real reasons why ER is broken from people that work there, it turns out all you do is get mad.
kriops•15m ago
potato3732842•11m ago
Each and every one of these regulations can in abstract, be justified by some useful idiot looking at only the first and second order inputs and outputs and not looking at the totality of the effects.
Nobody with a brain would defend shitting in the river, but here you are asking for individual turds so that they may be justified on the basis that the individual dropping them was relieved and their individual impact on water quality was minor.
baq•14m ago