The Matias Ergo Pro is almost perfect, but I had two of them and they both failed within one year. I had one of each switch type (low force and regular) - both were missing some button presses and repeating other button presses.
It took me maybe 1 week total after getting used to the keyboard to set it up in a way that worked for me personally, and the keyboard has already lasted a year and still works like new, and looks like new, and many people have had the same ergo-keyboard for years on end.
I like you did not like the idea of having to finnick with it all the time, but in reality those are just the enthusiasts. I set it up in a couple weeks and ever since then I've probably only messed with it a few times more just to try something out of curiosity.
> Not sure where you're getting the idea that you need to replace the keyboard every year.
It makes perfect sense to customize the primary interface to computers.
But if you use your keyboard a lot, keyboard hobbyism can be rewarding to a certain point.
The author's whole point here is that QMK (or ZMK, which I use) lets you customize it to exactly your own needs!
Just for an example off the top of my head, in JetBrains IDEs the shortcut for hiding all tools is Ctrl-Shift-F12.
But so many keyboards cut that number down so drastically. I use home, end, delete, page up/down, all the time not to mention the number pad as a whole, and all the Fkeys.
1) My space key is right CTRL when held down.
2) I have two keys for "<RET>", one on each thumb cluster, one is Alt when held down, the other is left CTRL.
3) Page up and down have their own keys on one of those clusters because I no longer needed them for the modifiers, and so page up and down are also home and end if they're held down.
4) Auto shift is on, and I've tuned to to eliminate most of the accidental shifts while keeping it relatively quick to type CONSTANT_VALUES (I actually still have shift keys in the usual positions but on the ergodox I have it feels like a big stretch to hit them and type so I use the auto-shift most of the time, but I do admit this is the convenience function I have the most love/hate relationship with)
5) The shift keys themselves give me open parentheses (left shift) and close parentheses (right shift) when double tapped.
The only chording I have to do these days (that isn't normal keyboard shortcuts) is I have a dedicated key to switch to a layer for FN keys when held down. And the reality is I could (and should) probably map the number keys to be FN keys when double tapped since I don't think I ever hold an FN key down.
This[1] isn't my most current layout (missing the home/end on the pageup/down buttons) but it's pretty much what I've landed on after about a year of using one of these. And realistically there are unused keys there I could remap still. The CTRL where the capslock key would be is never used in favor of the thumb cluster versions, the left and right CTRL keys on the tops of the two thumb clusters are leftovers from older layouts and unused right now. I've never used the "Meh" key or the "'" and "Capslock" keys in the lower left. The "Command-enter" and "[" and "]" keys in the lower right are another leftover from an older layout that are also unused now. So lots of room to play around still.
Not saying you should definitely switch, there are still some things that I'm not 100% happy with (those inner symbol keys are a stretch sometimes and depending on what code I'm writing feel like I could move them around) and getting used to the ortholinear layout is a whole thing on its own. But if it's something that interests you, maybe that layout can help you find a good starting point.
[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
I was in the same boat, doing most text navigation on the keyboard and fully adapted to the quirky arrangement of home/end/pgup/pgdn of the Microsoft natural keyboard elite I’d been coding on for 23 years.
But I do a lot of nomading, so I really wanted a small keyboard. And I’m a tall guy, so I was looking for a full split (I tried the Kinesis Freestyle2 for a while but didn’t love it).
I bought a ZSA Voyager. The first day I went from ~120wpm to 20. I hated it and had buyer’s remorse. Second week, I was still switching to another keyboard in the afternoons because I was making so many typos and felt so tired. I swapped out most of the switches with higher force ones, and that helped a ton. It took about two months before the keyboard disappeared again and there was only me and the work.
The biggest single win is that backspace is under my right thumb next to space bar, which felt life-changing once I got used to it (if I were still using a normal keyboard, I’d probably re-map right alt to backspace). And while word selection with ctrl+shift+arrow took a bit longer to get used to, now I appreciate not having to move my fingers at all to hit the arrow keys.
Nine months later, you can pry the Voyager from my cold dead hands. It’s probably the last keyboard I’ll ever buy. I do wish it had two more keys (haven’t found good homes for Alt and ~) but overall I’m very happy with where I ended up.
Like, I legitimately don't know anymore how you take a screenshot on MacOS, but I know that I hit the modifier key and then this one other key, and that takes a screenshot. Also don't know what you press to move from virtual screen to virtual screen, but mod-m and mod-comma go left and right for me. And in a browser, mod-s and mod-f do ctrl-shift-tab and ctrl-tab.
It's a terrible idea to do this for rarely-used shortcuts, as you'll never remember them; but for ones you use frequently, it's better-than-native, because you can put them on convenient keys that are easy to hit, rather than whatever contortions you'd need to do to hit Ctrl-Shift-F12.
One is to replace the switches. If they're hot swappable then it's easy. If they're not, it's hard -- but easy if you're willing to spend money on a desoldering iron. Depending upon your feelings here, I would consider it maintenance to keep it going if you love it -- particularly if you use it to prevent RSI.
A quick look shows matias does sell replacement switches -- which is usually the thing to go. Springs, crud, etc end up in the switches. Sometimes you can tear them apart to fix them, sometimes it's easier to toss them and replace them.
The typical desoldering tool for keyboards is something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/ENGINEER-Engineer-Solder-Suction-SS-0...
They also have things like this that are maybe more functional than trying to do it two handed:
https://www.amazon.com/zycllycx-Electric-Automatic-Desolderi...
But the hakko is the gold standard here. If you have keyboards you absolutely love but are soldered, this is the way to go.
https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-FR-301-Portable-Desoldering-Too...
Hahaha who am I kidding? Of course I have a keyboard hobby! I have a practical museum of various split and mechanical keyboards. But I don't want to be soldering them any more.
Then you can configure the buttons however you want.
Or you know... go build your own. It's fun. I built my own keypad and learned a bunch of stuff.
Even hot swap switches prevent more landfill waste as it makes it easy for people to replace bad switches. And if you want a reliable keyboard in the future, that's what you'll need, other wise it will just be more e-waste.
Owning 20 cars and maintaining them is a hobby. Owning 1 car and maintaining it is not -- it's life.
“Here’s a really nice split keyboard. But we’ve removed everything except the alphanumerics”
Whhhyyyy.
“Oh but it’s programmable. And you can have layers. And you can have macros”
Cool. I actually didn’t want any of that. I just wanted a single row of function keys. My Moonlander can somehow make space for a “meh” key, a “caps word” key, 3 keys in 2 variations for “change layer” but a play/pause/ volume keys are simply out of the question.
I don't spend all my time in vim, my job is mostly emails and docs now. Muscle memory decays for all the fancy chords/layers/macros/etc and I don't have infinite time to spend tweaking keyboard layouts.
Personally I have an advantage 360 pro. The only function keys I actually use with frequency are F12 and F2, used for shortcuts in editors. I just put F12 and F2 on thumb keys. Problem solved.
Some people go all in on layers, but I actually use minimal layers at all. I can do everything I need with just the base layer from how I have it setup. I only have a second layer setup that allows using VIM-like navigation (i.e. up, down, left, right, page-down, page-up etc) from the home row in my browser. But technically I also have those on the base layer just in the normal positions.
I actually had a similar mindset, I do not want to have to create tons of layers and combinations, so I optimized my layout around just the base layout but added a layer just for convenience later on.
I have the UHK 60 and I really like it, except as you mentioned no function keys.
The software is pretty good, includes a little DSL and you can do pretty much anything you want.
I popped for the 80 as soon as the shipping times caught up to real time. It's a fantastic keyboard. I haven't gotten any of the clusters for it yet, but I'm very happy with my purchase.
I hope they make a UHK 110 key. I want all the keys.
Right now it's not worth the upgrade to me from the 60 to the 80. but I'd totally upgrade for a 101/110/120 or whatever keys.
Modes and multiple keys to do one thing is fine, but it's not as nice as just having a dedicated key. Which is why I want all the keys.
https://www.keychron.com/collections/split-keyboards
I'm not sure if they're in stock, but it's a lovely keyboard with dead simple programmability.
I got the wired option with tactile brown switches and numpad, and I've been happy with this. I was looking for a replacement for MS Sculpt and didn't want one of the wild models, this finally ticked all the boxes.
https://perixx.com/products/periboard-535
I've got one with clicky blue switches, which is fun to type on but a bit loud, and one with silent red switches, which is pleasant to use but the key activation is perhaps a bit too light. I sometimes find myself pressing the keys when I thought I was just hovering my fingers.
The folding stands are a weak point. The MS 4000/Sculpt sort of design, whereby the riser is a solid piece of plastic that the keyboard rests on, is much better.
Gel wrist pads?... Not a great implementation. I either need to work up a 3d printed DIY replacement via covering TPU (or something of the like) or order a first party replacement.
I also have a "flat" gelpad on one of my Ergo Pros. Came that way from the factory, but it never really bothered me enough to complain to them. I love the gelpad palm rests (not wrist).
I agree with the author. It's a tool, and if your job requires a lot of computer use, it is worth it to invest in a tool that can not only help prevent RSI, but also make you much more productive.
I switched to a Colemak-dh layout at the same time, and it was a huge adjustment. I'm not sure it was really worth it yet. It is hard to catch up to 30+ years of QWERTY muscle memory, though. Key layout aside, the ortholinear arrangement has absolutely been worth it. It feels much more comfortable, especially with the tenting set up.
ZSA's layout editor and customer support also deserve a shoutout. Can't recommend it enough.
> we thought of your case and built you a toggle for it, try setting [thing] and let us know if that helps
It helped
I briefly looked for labeled keycaps that let the light shine through but couldn't find any.
Where did you get your coiled cables? I bought one from Aliexpress. It took a month to arrive and then didn't work.
I got my cables on etsy. There are tons of US-based makers who have large selections of colors, connectors, etc. I got my connectors cerakoted and they're really nice. It's pricey though.
My datahand is probably my favorite keyboard though for reducing movement while avoiding too much repetition. If it ever bites the dust beyond repair I'd absolutely move to a diy svalboard build or whatever similar alternative is it's contemporary.
Can't you just program it such that you do not use the keys you find unnecessary? Perhaps even remove the switches?
If you travel with the keyboard a lot maybe its an issue since its extra weight/space, but if not I don't see it really hurting much.
I've ended up on a Kinesis advantage 360 pro after spending thousands of dollars on keyboards because I needed something that allowed me to type for more than 5 minutes at a time without pain.
The things I think are key for people with persistent issues:
- programmable keys
- tenting
- concavity (rules out most keyboards)
- thumb clusters
- ortholinear
I know some go without the concavity but I just cannot go back. Its so much more comfortable on my hands.
Programmable keys are probably the most important though, primarily so you can pick which stretches and awkward movements to completely remove and no longer have to do.
For example I've entirely removed the need to ever stretch my pinkies and ring fingers on both hands. It destroys my hands having to do so on a normal keyboard and so many normal shortcuts require excessive pinky finger movement.
I honestly think anybody who plans on using a keyboard for the rest of their life should invest in a high quality keyboard even if it's expensive. I would not be able to continue working today without having done so.
Runner up is the glove 80, but the only thing is I don't like how flimsy it feels in my hands compared to how solid the kinesis feels.
- https://github.com/wizarddata/Ergo-S-1
I'm not the creator, but I do have a repo with a purchase list that shows what stuff to buy from AliExpress:
- https://github.com/arcanemachine/Ergo-S-1-Extras
It takes about 10 hours to put together. You'll also need some nerd tools: access to a 3D printer, soldering iron, etc.
And as such, I'm an extremely satisfied Advantage 360 Pro user. The Adv 360 + a mouse side-grade massively reduced pains in my hands/wrists to the point where I don't notice any issues 99% of the time, even with heavy (7+ hour) computer use and quite a lot of FPS gaming.
Though note that there are several keyboards with split layouts + tenting (the two most important aspects for relief) that cost a fraction of the Adv 360; $200-300 of the price tag is for features, build quality, it being pre-built, and ease of programmability.
It is, even in the USA, $129, compared to the $20 or so I'd otherwise expect to pay when buying a computer for a new employee.
Here in Denmark the RRP is 1699DKK = $267 = €227. (Still $215 without the VAT.)
In that time, I’ve had 3 desks, 5 computer chairs, and 7 computers.
I've settled on keyd[1], after using XKB and interception-tools for a while.
My view on it is, a good keyboard will get several years of use out of it, the average yearly price isn't really that much. Second, it's something I'm touching several hours most days of my life. I'm using a keyboard more than I wear shoes personally (I do prefer the barefoot life, so I'm a bit odd there). I'm touching it more than my couch or my dining chairs or other things in my home. Isn't it worthwhile that it's comfortable and exactly what I want from it?
This definitely does not describe me. I typed around 100wpm, sometimes quite loud, often times quite a button mash, and frequently not lifting my fingers quickly after each press. Didn’t have any notion of “correct” typing
I've seen it with people religiously sticking to an optimal typing method which limits their hand movement to an extreme. They were crazy fast but RSI was a common subject of discussion, regardless of posture or hardware quality.
We had the same issue with gaming controllers, some with guitar learning etc. There's a limit on how much we're able to repeat the same movement again and again, it depended on what movement and who did it, but the only ones who didn't get any RSI simply avoided extreme repetitions.
And buffs. Sometimes building more and more muscles solve the issues entirely, if that's what you're into.
I solved it in a couple of ways:
1. Quit wow
2. Rock climbing. Get stronger, especially forearm and finger strength. I can't emphasize enough how much this helps over even carpal tunnel braces or whatever. The biggest single thing that stopped wrist pain.
I did not "touch type" in the traditional sense of correct form and using the home row, but I didn't need to look at the keyboard. I typed around 120wpm like this though at the time. I have not and probably never will get back to this speed typing on the Kinesis. I'm closer to just 90-100wpm with stricter typing technique. But usually try not to type as fast as I can anymore anyway. I still to this day type faster with my crap form on a laptop keyboard if I swap to it for a bit even though I rarely do anymore.
My typing form was honestly atrocious. If I were to describe it I covered over wasd with my left hand as if I was gaming, and pinky was only ever really used for modifier keys and shifting. I only used left shift, never right. My right hand I used index finger for spacebar and moved my entire hand to the spacebar between every word. I didn't even realize I did this until I sat and analyzed my typing form maybe a year ago to compare to correct touch typing.
It actually took me quite a while to learn to type on a split keyboard since I basically had to learn to type correctly from scratch.
But ultimately what REALLY helped was going to physiotherapy and identifying muscle groups in my back that were weak, causing me to sit weird and support my arms with muscles in my shoulders that weren't designed for that. And because all of this is connected in weird ways, the pain I was feeling in my wrists originated way back in over-stressing those shoulder muscles.
After a few weeks of an exercise program designed to target those muscles, all my RSI pains aren't just reduced, which was the sum total of the results I got from different mechanical keyboards, they were GONE. Plus, I had the added benefit of naturally sitting and walking "better" and feeling better about it.
So if you've tried different mechanical keyboards with only limited degrees of success (or have a fave keyboard you don't want to have to switch from), consider an exercise program designed to improve your posture! It is literally the single biggest thing I've done in the past year to make me feel significantly better, and not just in the case of the RSI!
Not saying it will work for others but it’s at least worth trying.
PS I ended up sticking with the kinesis, now on a 360 pro. Hands down the best keyboard I’ve ever seen or used. I recommend both deadlifts and kinesis :)
(0) Try to feel in your body what kind of static load is on your muscles and joints. Ideally you want your body parts to be in neutral relaxed positions. It's not always possible to completely avoid static load, so try to take routine breaks, change positions, etc.
(1) At all costs avoid having nontrivial wrist extension or flexion (wrists bent upward or downward) while doing repetitive finger motions. Your hands need to be coming straight out of your forearms. The tendons that flex and extend the fingers need to pass through the wrists, and a bent wrist leaves them moving in a weak and uncomfortable part of their range of motion. My understanding is that most keyboard-related RSI comes from wrist extension or flexion.
(2) You should try to get your arms to be supported as much as possible passively from the shoulders. When sitting or standing, the upper arms should be hanging loosely at your sides with back reasonably straight and head up. The keyboard needs to be close enough to the torso for this to be possible. If your elbows are not close to your body, but are forward or out to the side, try to change your position. Being in a position where the weight of the arms is supported by the arm muscles causes fatigue and encourages compromising other joint positions in uncomfortable or damaging ways to relieve the strain. While actively typing the hands do not need to be supported by any kind of surface: let the palms "float" above the keyboard. Use the palm rest for resting, not typing.
(3) For a single-piece flat keyboard, I find it is most comfortable for the plane of the keyboard to be parallel to the forearms. The appropriate front/back tilt of the keyboard is therefore dependent on the relative height of the keyboard and the torso: if the table is high relative to the chair, the keyboard needs to be tilted up at the far side; if the keyboard is on your lap, on a low under-desk keyboard tray, or on a belly-height standing desk, then the keyboard needs to be flat or even tilted down at the far side. The major reason that old typewriters had an aggressive tilt to them was because desks are historically the right height for handwriting (i.e. tall).
(4) I find it helps a lot on a one-piece keyboard to keep the wrists with little to no ulnar deviation (turn toward the outside). It also helps to try to pronate them less (i.e. leave them turned so that the pinkies are a bit below the pointer fingers, instead of rotating them all the way flat). Split ergonomic keyboards eliminate the need to make some of these compromises by allowing the hands to be separated and allowing the sides to be "tented" (so the wrists can be less pronated) and positioned/oriented to eliminate ulnar deviation.
(5) Try not to have too sharp an impact on each keystroke. Ideally use only the necessary force for each key press to register, and try to avoid slamming your fingers down hard through the bottom of the keystroke. A keyboard with better switches can help a lot here, with reliable actuation halfway through the keystroke and tactile/auditory feedback at the actuation point. Key switches that don't reliably actuate unless smashed are the worst.
A physiotherapist said the problem is not the wrists but that the pain comes from higher up in the arms. I started going to the gym, and like for you, the issues are just gone now. I haven't worn the wrist support since.
I did physical therapy for months and the issue basically came down to my nerves being the issue. I was diagnosed with Cubital Tunnel Syndrome in both elbows and also a torn TFCC tear in one hand causing pressure on the ulnar nerve in my wrists when the wrist was flexed even a little or in what was called ulnar deviation (wrist extended outwards/away from your body). I was told the most likely cause was as simple as the way I slept - with my elbows bent and potentially exacerbated due to excessive heavy gripping combined with my bone structure in my elbow simply not being very kind on me.
I've since recovered from the elbow surgeries and they are evaluating wrist surgery as well, I still sometimes have issues with my fingers going numb in the wrong position - but trust me, I went to all kinds of doctors trying to figure this out since practically every hobby I had required using my hands/fingers. Unfortunately it just seems like I was unlucky. But having keyboards that allow my hands to be in more natural positions at the very least has allowed me to continue working.
Glove80 has a better key well and thumb cluster for most people though. I have made a detailed comparison here:
https://danieldk.eu/MoErgo-Glove80-Review
Also agree with the sibling commenters. In order, get:
- Help from an expert/exercise/do very regular breaks.
- A properly adjustable chair.
- A height-adjustable desk (get an electronic one, it's the only one you will ever tune properly, other desks are too much effort).
- Only then an ergo keyboard.
An ergo keyboard is worthless if you do not get the basics right (diagnose the issues, letting the blood flow, having a good posture). I am in some ergo keyboard Discords and it happens far too often that people by an ergo keyboard, but do not even have a setup where they can have a good posture.
So ymmv, but for those with larger hands, it may make sense to try a kinesis.
I landed on a Kinesis Advantage 2, at the time as the 360 wasn't even announced yet.
Spent entirely too much money on other ones. There's a reason the Kinesis Advantage line has been around for decades. It really is a just a great ergonomic shape without many compromises. And mine has held up 7 years now with no issues.
Anyone looking for pain relief should really try the Advantage 2 or 360. If the 360 Pro is too expensive don't shy away from considering a used Kinesis Advantage 2. Don't get an Advantage 1 as they have compatibility issues with newer machines.
I'll buy a €450 keyboard for any employee that asks for one. It's easily justified compared to the loss of productivity from RSI or similar.
I wonder whether this has to do with me being a bass and guitar player. Playing an instrument where you essentially press down thick steel wires with your finger tips with full force, while your fingers are in odd angled ("unhealthy") positions for hours certainly does something to your motoric system.
I know anecdotal evidence with n=1 is useless, but the idea that motion is important to reduce body pains isn't exactly new or unresearched. A whole family of ergonomic chairs have evolved about that very idea. I know multiple people whose only solution to excruciating back pain was simply to exercise and build muscles in the back, and they tried every ergonomic chair in the book. The only thing that really helped was excercise.
Since I don't have RSI take all that with a grain of salt, but maybe trying with those guitar-finger-strength-trainers for a month isn't that big of an investment?
I'd played guitar since I was 12 years old and probably averaged at least an hour a day basically the entire time even into adulthood. Played obviously a hell of a lot more when I was a teenager though.i also was competing in powerlifting and used my grip and fingers for all sorts of stuff.
I had surgery on both elbows and am told I may need to on my hands/wrists since the issue is a combination of nerve issues and wrist issues.
Before that I was using a Keychron Q11, which is a split keyboard with a regular staggered layout. That helped my shoulders feel better, I have a pretty broad frame and regular keyboards put me in a kinda t-rex position, but my left wrist in particular was killing me since I couldn't type a fair few keys on the left side, c, x, z, and q, without constantly adjusting my hand position.
Must say that the Glove 80 is growing on me as one heck of a comfortable experience. No idea how durable it is, it's certainly a light keyboard, though at the same time I'm not sure how well that actually conveys build quality. Like would the solder joints really have been more resistant to drops and impacts if it had a steel plate in the bottom like the Kinesis does?
My normal (mechanical) keyboard doesn’t give me any issues, as long as it’s narrow enough (75% layout or less) that I can keep my mouse close enough to the center of my body that I don’t have to rotate my shoulder outwards too much.
My natural resting position on my keyboard is with both arms coming in diagonally without bending at the wrists. I do a lot of work on the terminal, including programming, so I’m using it quite intensively and I never feel any strain.
I tried to get used to a split orthogonal keyboard, but I couldn’t use it for extended periods without getting RSI like symptoms. Would I have persisted, I might have gotten used to it. Or maybe it just wasn’t the right one for me.
Anyway, this is not to counter any of the things you said, because I basically followed the same path with my mouse, but it shows how different postures and usage patterns can lead to different outcomes. I’m still interested in ergonomic keyboards, though, and I might try one again in the future.
Any recommendations?
- Spend time practicing away from important coding tasks (e.g. gaming, writing, a side project, a one-off script, etc.). Being able to learn in a forgiving environment, outside of deadlines, gives you the space to allow mistakes and time to correct them
The default layers are pretty good, but I found programming the keys/layers to what made sense to me to be more beneficial. I use the heat map to see which keys get the most milage and program layers around that. Then I only program a few new keys at a time and get a feel for things. My words-per-minute went down initially but now it is back.
I have been tweaking my layout for about a month and am close to being happy with it. I've set myself a milestone that when I don't make any tweaks for 6 months I will buy custom keycaps that have my exact symbols/layers on each key.
So I guess I'd say: design to lean on familiar structures as much as you can and then just commit to using it a lot and don't give yourself too hard of a time when it gets wierd. Whatever you come up with will surely beat the pain associated with having your right on of pinky in charge of 50% of the symbols plus enter.
Also on the "muscle memory" thing, I decided early on to not try to modify any other keyboards in my life. Just the ergodox get the middlemak and super custom layout. I found that preserves muscle memory for laptop built in keyboards and using other people's and allows my brain to form a completely separate set of muscle memory that kicks in on the ergodox and neither seem to conflict with each other. Works for my brain, might work for you too.
[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
It's still mechanical, it's still split, it's still QMK programmable, it's got hotswap sockets so you can try different switches... but it's also an extremely normal staggered layout with function keys and everything.
I think it's worth trying the ortho 'n' layers approach, because it has real wins to it; but if you've tried it and don't like it, this is one step closer to normalcy, while still keeping many of the wins.
Keyboards, layouts etc won't matter as you'll have the same difficulties you're feeling now, no matter what you choose.
Practice and patience, that is the cure.
Hell I've even worked on a couple of revision on "gaming" layers. Namely for FPS or older roguelikes.
I hate how hard it is to find a split space(feels mandatory now that i'm used to it) 40% with wireless and QMK/Zia/etc. The EPOMAKER-TH40 SHOULD be perfect, but turns out they put out a breaking patch or something and it's not ACTUALLY programmable anymore. I need something like this for 2 setups at homes.
I went around on a couple of things and landed on the split 4x5 Chiri CE for my everyday workhorse since it's easy to carry.
https://keeb.io/products/chiri-ce-keyboard-kit?variant=41088...
Of note, while that board seems to be out of stock and isn't for everyone i cannot recommend keeb.io enough. They've done a fantastic job of keeping my board running after I had some ESD ruin it once or twice, and have never charged me as it was still under warranty.
With how hit or miss a lot of this niche keyboard stuff is, it's really really nice to find people who stand by their product and can turn things around. I get its got to be a miserable market so I don't demand it, and I'm extremely happy when I do see it.
Mirrored home row mods are even much nicer (IMO).
I have used ergo keyboards with thumb clusters for several years now. After a while, even though switching to a split ergo keyboard alleviated wrist pains, I developed thumb discomfort.
In the end I solved it by only frequently using the resting key of each thumb (space and backspace). And using the other thumb keys for infrequent things. I use homerow mods to have all modifiers in the alpha block.
if you find one you like it's a massive difference in how much usage you can get out of your thumbs while typing
Until they start to hurt. It can take a few years (just like wrist pains). Be careful!
I have homerow mods configured but still need to work on using them more. Unfortunately a lot of what's best for typing conflicts with what's best for gaming. Almost every example split layout puts space on the right half and I move it to the left. Still need shift and control on pinky holds. And the Elora has an exaggerated pinky stagger but swapped to WQSD makes an almost perfect diamond, but at the expense of the old Q now being A is below instead of above and Z is really far away.
Also, RSI on your thumb (especially with smartphone usage) is very common.
So yes, you should probably have the most frequent keys on your thumbs but only very few (I'd say 1-2).
In my experience (having also had thumb discomfort on ergo boards) thumb clusters can be great, but you have to make sure to avoid too much thumb movement.
Ever since then, I primarily only use two of the keys of each thumb clusters with frequency, and they both require very little movement to reach (the two large keys on a kinesis 360). The others that require a little bit more extending of the thumb are more infrequently used keys that don't ring all the time.
Another commenter complained that it feels insubstantial. However its light weight is much preferred for travel. It's fine.
The Advantage helped me a lot, but the Glove80 is the only keyboard I’ve truly loved using. The key well is insanely well-designed and even though the tenting is a bit of work to set up, it is really tailored to my preferred angle.
MoErgo is also expanding the Choc keyboard space with really nice silent switches (Cherry/Plum Blossom) and keycaps.
Resetting the tenting up everytime I travel/go somewhere with it is not really convenient at all, so its not really a decent option.
I don't often travel with the 360, but when I do, I just lower it to the lowest level and its never had an issue except for the obvious bulkiness.
Another issue is because its so light, it would often shift around on my desk while typing, and I've seen others complain about this as well. Maybe its just an issue of how hard you type, or how much friction your desk provides.
If I could get a mix between a 360 with the shape of the glove 80's keywell and key setup, but with the sturdiness of the 360 I'd buy it no questions asked.
The Moonlander is way too large IMO. A 42 key layout is about perfect and requires ~zero wrist movement.
The corne has three thumb buttons on each side, but it's effectively five thumb buttons on each side because two can be pressed at the same time. So your layout can be [Mod1] [Layer] [Mod2] and you can easily use [Mod1]/[Mod2] with anything on [Layer]. And when you press [Mod1], a thumb key on the other hand becomes [Mod2]. So you basically get to use every possible combo. I have five mod keys this way: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, Super and Hyper. And multiple layer keys.
I wish I had more keys, yet ironically I have empty keys I do not use at all on the keyboard.
Stick those sequences on those empty keys as macros. Or assign one of those empty keys to control-meta.
It definitely doesn't feel as solid as the Kinesis or ergodox (which I used intermittently as well) but is the most comfortable keyboard I've used, the LEDs are actually useful (for showing battery life and bluetooth connections), and there are enough keys (including function keys); I don't like having to reason about layers at all, I want to be able to smoothly transition to my laptop's keyboard in a pinch).
One note — when I purchased the Moonlander their "The Platform" wasn't available. I bought it couple month ago and it improved experience even more.
I mapped it to a Colemak layout varient when I first got it. I was constantly discovering key combos that didn't quite work for whatever reason and made tweaks to the layout or the shortcuts in various editors. Forever tying my brain in knots learning and relearning mappings and combos. Then I'd frequently jump on other peoples computers/laptops to help out with small things and have to switch back to the old mode of thinking.
It ended up being a productivity sink rather than a boon. I don't know whether I would have crossed some inflection point if I had persevered, but there was always this fixed cost of tweaking shortcuts when using new software that was more burdensome than with a plain qwerty keyboard.
Maybe I was too ambitious and should have avoided the Colemak-esque layout, but I haven't managed to summon the stamina to give it a fair go again. I still use one half of it for gaming though. It's really sweet for that.
I kept mine pretty close to a standard qwerty - the only customizations are where I put the "\|", backspace, dash and a few other keys, along with what to do with all the thumb keys. Even with these relatively minor changes, it still took me about a week to recover my WPM, and I had to use their touch typing software to practice for an hour or two. Making only a few changes also makes it seamless to switch to laptop keyboards, etc.
[1]: https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez-st/layouts/wzKWq/latest/...
Couldn’t be happier. I’ve used QMK, even writing some C for a board, and limited key keyboards before and their software really does make it a lot simpler to configure. It’s also really nice to have leds indexable per key so you can color code things when you’re learning.
They cost a lot more now for those in the US[0] but I’d still recommend them. My pain hasn’t come back and honestly even at +20% that’s worth it.
0: https://www.reddit.com/r/zsaVoyager/comments/1n9en4b/us_tari...
Combined with adjustable carrier arms it has enabled me to continue working even post recent shoulder surgery.
Yes it’s an obscene amount of money but it works and enables me to continue earning a living in front of a screen.
Maybe someday I can afford this, but I miss the IBM Thinkpad Trackpoint.
That's a bit of a generalization. Mechanical keyboards like the Hyper7 exist that have enough for even the most key-hungry typist. If you want an ergonomic mechanical keyboard with many keys there are also some of those out there, like the Kinesis line or the Glove80. That said, one thing people mean by ‘ergonomic’ is ‘less stretching’, and by geometry more keys = more stretching, which is why there's significant overlap between the ergonomic keyboard crowd and the few-keys crowd. When I first got an Ergodox I too thought I would struggle with few keys, but over time I found I prefer to have the keys in a comfortable position with a layer modifier than to have them off in Narnia where I have to shift my whole wrist to reach them.
(Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.)
> (Because subcultures are subdivided recursively, the _gaming_ mechanical keyboard subcrowd also often like small keyboards, for reasons I don't really know but are presumably quite different from the reasons the ergonomic mechanical keyboard subcrowd have.)
The explanation I've always heard for TKL for gamers is that removing the numpad leaves more room for the vigorous, professional mousing they have to do (I'm skeptical)
I found that when, e.g., using Photoshop, a keyboard without a number pad was a nontrivial improvement.
Playing in teams requires you to type to coordinate with teammates. The language floats from cryptic to hectic: all sorts of acronyms, jargon, combining text with "body language", etc. Regardless, typing with both hands is still faster.
You can also buy a detachable numpad.
A person with broader shoulders would probably have a different experience, but a full keyboard makes me feel like my mouse is either too close to the keyboard or too far to rest my shoulder.
I've tried traditional home-row typing but I just can't do it. And after all these years, my wrists still don't hurt at all. I can't prove that there's a connection, but I strongly suspect it.
I think that's typical for over-achievers.
Most of the time, those selling the best way to do stuff have a rigid way of thinking/operating and seem to have rules for everything in life and they think it applies to everyone the same, even though we are clearly all different.
Very often it's actually counterproductive and doesn't get you much better performance, touch typing is one of those things. It's a rigid theory made to form human robots that would spend all day typing stuff from other peoples (basically secretaries, re-copying stuff or typing dictated material). It focuses on typing speed at the expense of everything else. And is completely pointless because the speed difference between a touch typist and a self taught typist is completely negligible for 99% of tasks.
[1]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12611474/
Anecdotally, I have large hands (or at least long fingers) and early piano lessons, and as a self-taught chaos typist on QWERTY I struggled with RSI at a relatively young age until I switched to more traditional touch-typing on Dvorak.
Well "reasons" is quite obviously travel distance and thus time. If your fingers are always on, or nearby, the resting position (home row) then you go faster and don't stretch in repeated weird (ergonomically speaking) ways.
This though comes at a BIG cost, namely layers and other tricks to make "far" thing stay "close", which is cognitive. You have to remember where things are and how to activate them. Until it comes second nature because you drilled for so long then it might not be worth it for most.
The "reasons" are not arbitrary.
Funnily enough, the Moonlander was not this for me. It's programmable, but the round-trip time for programming meant that I didn't modify it often, and only modified it in significant ways, which meant I'd then forget key combinations immediately. This was particularly prevalent for anything where you have to tune responsiveness/movement/timing.
I switched from a Moonlander to a UHK, and the programming time is ~instant. You click flash and in 1-2 seconds it's done. For the Moonlander you have to download the firmware, find the file, drag and drop onto the flashing tool, and wait 10+ seconds. It's amazing how much of a difference that made for me.
So yes, get a keyboard with programmable keys, but not all are created equal, find one that lets you have a very tight feedback loop and you'll be so much happier.
Actually I point out you can use webusb to flash it (if you use Chrome) further down ...
How long does the flash take? Having it in Chrome is a great step forward, but if it still takes 10-20s to flash that would still prevent the sort of feedback loop that I found so transformational.
The split keyboard opens up the middle of my desk to fit an adjustable stand (Parblo and ElevationLab work well). So I can write and draw by hand if I want.
Yes, they are a lot of money. I don’t have time to game any more, and they clearly focus mainly on gamers. But if you’re a software / IT person your wrists are your livelihood, so for goodness sakes invest in them. There is no silver bullet and you will probably have to try a number of possible solutions if you suffer from wrist and forearm pain when working, but do not ignore it and take your workplace ergonomics seriously.
For younger engineers, learn to minimise your “travel” and learning editor shortcuts, terminal shortcuts and similar so that you can be smoothly productive with constantly shifting from mouse to keyboard and back again. And take regular breaks! Get up and walk around. If you are WFH get out for walk at lunch.
In general, care for your body so that you may write code into your 80s.
Default layers on the Dygma Raise 2: https://dygma.com/pages/first-time-using-the-dygma-raise-2
My ranking of measures from most effective to least effective:
1) Do everything you can to minimize workload of weak fingers (pinky & ring fingers). Just flipping control and caps lock is often not enough.
2) Split keyboard; halves roughly shoulder-width apart. Optimize for straight wrists both at rest and "in action". This usually results in zero tilting or slightly negative tilting.
3) Concave designs.
4) Tenting.
I know you mention it already in the article but it is really worth trying out. You even get more tenting angles that would previously be impossible without it. And it just makes the whole thing a lot sturdier.
I wrote about it in my review of the Moonlander[1]. In short, in addition to much more stable angle adjustment, you get an additional 46 degrees of adjustment (11 degrees with the tent legs vs 57 degrees with the platform kit.)
It does tend to slide around a bit on a smooth desk, but I solved that with some rubber matting glued to the bottom.
0 - https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/platform
1 - https://marcusb.org/posts/2025/08/two-years-with-the-zsa-moo...
- How many hours a day do you spend driving?
- How much do you/did you spend on your car?
- Did you purchase the cheapest car that just filled the need you had (aesthetics, comfort, etc. are therefore off the table, "gets N people to N places")? If not, why not?
- How many hours a day do you spend typing?
- How much did you spend on your keyboard?
If you haven't tried a good mechanical keyboard see if you know someone who has one and spend some time using it.
How hard is it to find a full 101/104 mechanical keyboard, with cherry blue, ISO layout (ie big upside-down Enter/Return) with customizable keytops that are in en-US and have the MacOS keytops (L: control/option/command, R: command/option/fn) and the appropriate MacOS function key tops?
All of the ISO that I could find have one or another of the EU layouts, which I don't need or want.
Then reshuffle the physical keycaps to match your layout.
(Disclosure: I have two of their ISO keyboards: Q10 and Q11. Both require a wrist support, they are thick.)
I already use Karabiner to swap a few things, so that's probably the closest.
Just need to be able to get blue switches, I WFH and there's no one around to be bothered by the clicking.
Considering I started "typing" on an ASR-33, and then an original IBM PC, I want the clicks :)
There are also many more types than just regular cherry mx blue nowadays if you want clicky.
My advice would be to buy some clicky switch samples from somewhere like this; https://mechbox.co.uk/collections/switches-singles
Wanting to optimize my layout, I did research into my typing behavior and logged my keystrokes (and storing these logs as securely as I would a password). Analysis did give me notable insights (e.g. by far my most used keys are arrow keys, for selecting text), but my main conclusion was that even during a regular full day of programming preferring my keyboard over my mouse (tiling window manager, hotkeys, browser extension to virtually click on elements using keys), I don't actually type that much, and if I do, it is in bursts, never more than 20 seconds or so.
Although I find typing on a split fun and comfortable, I went back to a regular keyboard because the hit in productivity is not worth it for me. The experiment did teach me how to improve my ergonomics. I optimized my desk height and bought a very flat and less wide keyboard, with the completely unused numpad section chopped off ("TKL") so if I do grab my mouse there is less travel.
- mechanical keys - reduced movement;
- buy a custom build - have industrial build quality;
- barely any movement - good blood flow;
- avoid rolling - type fast;
- concave keyboards - tenting;
- fewer keys - minimal;
- uniformly shaped keys - touch typing feedback;
- keep hands on the keyboard - move pointer precisely;
- custom layout - conventional shortcuts.
This is ridiculous. I no longer take this field seriously. I get it, we get bored and need a new toy sometimes. Some indeed acquired a medical condition and need medical equipment to type now.
I noticed when I exercise I can sit comfortably on a firm basic stool, and when I don't I become a princess on a pea.
How about we start with the basics? Good posture, correct hand positions, monitor at the right level, exercise, nutrition. Then an IBM Model M would suffice.
Humans get bored and at some point, we need to make complicated answers/explications/justifications to stuff that are actually very simple.
Saying, just practice, pay attention and measure/test progress doesn't cut it for many; especially since some don't want to come to the realization that they'll probably never get better because of their own limitations.
This is why there are always people selling "solutions" that are mostly snake oil, the promise is always that it'll get better, faster, stronger, whatever.
One area that is ripe with those sorts of things is weight loss. It is an extremely simple problem, just eat less calories than you consume and you'll be good. But since humans are faillible and sometimes have hard time making progress, you get all kinds of protocols/tools and whatnot that only achieve the same goal but in a roundabout way.
If people believe in them, sometimes it helps (most of the time not). This is the exact same with keyboards, the problem is not at all with the keyboard, it's all lack of physical activity and bad posture. But saying: just take breaks, do calisthenics (or swimming or any full body workout sport really) and it will get better doesn't satisfy many. Those who want a "quick fix" they can buy are disappointed and those who want to sell a "solution" can't push their snake oil that would make them money (they often are believers themselves, so it doesn't matter if it doesn't really make a difference).
It's relatively agreed upon nowadays that there actually is no "correct posture". The issue is primarily exacerbated by being in the same posture all of the time, doing the same movements all the time, and especially so in positions that aren't so natural for our body - and typing is not a natural movement/position for the wrists.
I developed issues despite always standing or sitting on a supposed ergonomic char, moving my hands a lot while typing, working out and exercising consistently, etc.
Until I started having issues I probably would have also been in the same camp that "oh this is ridiculous". Now I take anyone with chronic pain much more seriously.
1. Unpack and immediately set up a Colemak-DH layout. Customize the layout twice a day for 4 months. This is PAINFUL, slow and unproductive.
2. Got comfortable with Colemak and stopped doing any typing exercises. Still tweaking my layout.
3. Didn’t know where to position my mouse, so I got an Apple Trackpad 2 that sits beautifully between the two halves. Works great on Linux. Keep the mouse around for gaming.
4. Finally productive. I make minor changes to my layout every 6 months. Colemak is ingrained in my muscle memory. It’s just so comfortable.
And don’t worry about forgetting how to type QWERTY; the secret to retain muscle memory is that an ortholinear split keyboard is sufficiently different from a regular one that it’s like learning a completely new instrument. Hard at first, but it would be hard even if the layout was familiar; might as well then switch to something better than QWERTY.
I love my split keyboard now. Games are a bit annoying but I can easily switch to my gaming-QWERTY-hybrid layout (QWERTY on the left hand, colemak w/ tweaks on the right). Specialist tools like Blender might need minor rebinding to find comfort.
When I type on a regular laptop, I find shift+numbers for symbols to be hilariously unergonomic compared to my symbol layer, I don’t know how the hell people cope doing Rust or Haskell or even Lisp.
Full disclosure: I've made that!
Tried a Moonlander and hated it. My hands don't work with ortholinear. And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc. I think most of what is told and sold in ergonomics is snake oil. I don't believe ortholinear is any good for it, and minimizing movement also seems really questionable to me. I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs.
I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard. I have to accommodate Linux ($work), Windows (gaming), Mac (personal projects, open uni). That's already challenging enough to get these have similar shortcuts. I use a keychron K5 pro that supports all OSs. I can work efficiently in all situations, with all OSs, with just a single screen. Having a more specialized keyboard (or otherwise setup, like relying too heavily on multi-monitors), wouid overall surely be detrimental, during the times I could not use it.
What I've learned to avoid pain: Wrists should be straight. For me, a slim keyboard helps to achieve that, flat on the table. Hands should have some room apart, open chest. Small keyboards are bad for that, you'll want a 100% one, or a split. Do some lifting, have some muscles. Try a trackball, you might love it. Switch how you are sitting. The best sitting position is the next one. Get up to think, go for breaks. Don't overly specialize into some local/global optimum that is a moving target over your lifetime. Use defaults. Mostly boring setup with some minor personal tweaks can go a long way.
> And I hated having to learn layers and layouts. Besides I have a real job and I use a proper IDE so I need my F keys, I like to use the Home/End/Page Up+Down keys, I learned to use the numpad efficiently, etc.
Personally, I find that a layer key is little different from a standard modifier key such as Cmd, Alt, etc. Yep, it's one more thing to learn, but IMHO it's worth learning: on macOS, you can use Cmd+arrow to move around text pretty much the same way H/E/Pu/Pd works, but with Mod+arrow, you can just transfer this muscle memory to other systems.
I agree with the lack of F-keys, this is a stupid trend that caught early on, and now no designer seems to be willing to challenge it. I have a different reason though (I prefer Cmd+R or similar to Recompile/Run/etc), and it's games. This is my StarCraft 2 layout: <https://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/8b8dcd36c0abc...>
SC2 is insanely demanding on your raw mechanics, and adding a layer is unquestionably a Bad Idea. For many commands (production, upgrades, some spells), modal input is hardcoded into the engine.
The layout I built is much more optimized than standard hotkeys, but the lack of F-keys is brutal and hindering (esp. for Zerg). Regardless, I've improved A LOT with this layout - which makes me think, how you make it work for you is more important than the shape of it.
> I'm working with comfortable 30-40 wpm and am still one of the most prolific and productive engineers at $work, typing speed is not important for many jobs.
The design goal was never to increase speed (that's mostly mechanics), but to allow a more comfortable posture.
> I would like to continue be able to use regular keyboards efficiently and with little annoyance. Too often I'm traveling and stuck with the laptop keyboard.
Again subjective, but I have zero problems switching between ortholinear and staggered.
> Use defaults.
Disagree (: most defaults suck. Best case, they're opinionated but thoughtful. A consensus is a compromise - always questionable. Worst: "we're now just stuck with it". These all suck, because they're someone else's opinion. And it's in your right to disagree.
However, it's not become a hobby, and I'm satisfied with the keyboards I bought in 2019 and have no plans to replace them.
If anyone is interested in taking over the site, I'm willing to transfer the repository, which should mean GitHub make an HTTP redirect.
After I got used to that I was able to migrate to the moonlander pretty easily. I just had to spend the time to sent it up properly for programming.
Now I own 2, each with the platform addon, which solves many of the issues with tenting as you no longer have to pivot the thumb cluster. It is expensive though.
Both keyboards also have shrimp switches to make typing pretty quiet.
This combined with a ball mouse have solved my RSI that developed a few years ago entirely.
An Ergodox EZ has been a lifesaver, I’ve reprogrammed it so I don’t need to use my left pinky anything other than letter keys (goodbye left shift, you’ve pained me for too long). I fully agree with the articles advice; pair a good programmable keyboard with physical activity to keep the hands working long term.
Be warned though: the more customized your keyboard the harder it is type when using a laptop or friends keyboard.
I think the more customized your Ergodox layout is the easier it is for the brain to treat 2 different keyboards as 2 different input devices.
It seems to be the usb plug failing that does it.
I do like the idea of thumb keys, but would probably need them as duplicates to the more traditional positions. I got a Keyboardio 100 which is absolutely beautiful, but 60% with layers for those above important keys just was too freaking hard.
As for <60%: use that neuroplasticity. Stave off dementia. You can do it.
There's neuroplasticity and there's picking your battles. :-)
My layout would not work for you since I put navigation on the right hand (close to where it would be normally), but do whatever works for you.
Personally I use navigation keys much more on my split because they're right under my fingers. Having VIM movement keys everywhere is quite nice.
It's definitely way more ergonomic - I believe that's incredibly important if you're going to be spending decades in front of a screen. At the very least don't make it easy to be hunched over.
Last but not least - coming from a non-mechanical keyboard before - the switch is super satisfying.
Got the flat Logitech for work where we use windows.
I’m not saying this is the right choice for everyone but low profile and low travel is nice on the wrists and nice to type on, and it just might also be the right choice for you.
It’s a lot more boring though.
As for ergonomics, just stay away from the home row. I don’t know why that’s a recommended position, but I can see why you’d get wrist pain if you are placing your fingers on the home row most of the time.
Get a decent cheap one (ideally with switchable switches!) for 50, use it for a while, then figure out if you want better switches (20-30$ for the best ones).
If you want to make keyboards your hobby, sure, go nuts. But also consider using the keyboard, you know—as an input device to a computer, to build something great!
I can't say I've had the same problems with quality as the author. The tenting can wobble if it's not tightened in a balanced position, but once it is, I haven't had it loosen. And the palm rests seem fine to me, but I've learned to put less pressure on my palms. The only issue I've had is the keyboard sliding away from you due to low friction when tented.
My board also came with Cherry MX Browns, which used for a couple of years. I recently switched to low profile key caps and Akko switches for a nicer tactile feel. With tenting, I felt like the cap height and travel distance was too large.
I'm really frustrated, because I love everything else from this keyboard. But those wobbles really do make it unusable.
Eventually the little rubbery feet fell off the tenting attachment. In a moment of frustration I wrapped the tenting attachment in tennis racket overgrip, which actually drastically improves the feeling of the thing IMO, it really keeps the keyboard in place and removes a lot of the creaky noises from the plastic tenting kits.
It looks like Moonlander tenting kits tend to be a bit more aggressive than what you get with Kinesis, though, so maybe it doesn’t apply.
My biggest issue seems to be that I'm switching between a Macbook and the Moonlander all the time, and the Moonlander I just find myself making too many dumb typos on. In particular, I think the ortholinear layout isn't doing me any favors, and the missing extra keys on the right (particularly the missing "+" key) I really struggle with.
I do love the thumb clusters, but as the article above says, the red button I never use.
The real star of the show is the programmable firmware. I have a lot of custom mappings on my main layer that I really love, with dual use keys being a big one (z and / are control if held for example). The Framework 16 keyboard with QMK firmware sounds really, really good to me.
Unfortunately, my next keyboard doesn't seem to exist: Low profile mechanical switches, QMK or similar firmware, split, thumb clusters, staggered layout, enough keys to have []\ on the right. The low profile seems to be the killer there.
I would love just a low profile programmable keyboard with 5 individual keys instead of the long space bar. That would tick all my boxes.
Really great and active community too!
Or get the soldering iron out and build one of the many kits available[1]
[0]: https://moergo.com
I got the Keycron Q8 which is actually still on sale: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q8-alice-layout-q...
I also found I could type way faster on it than I even could on a split.
I do miss the thumb cluster though... but this is close with the split thumb setup
It would be nice if laptop manufacturers standardized on a modular keyboard deck design, making it viable to do small-batch group buys of replacement decks with relatively esoteric layouts. This wouldn't cover every possible layout due to size constraints but it'd be a marked improvement.
Just to say in my experience once you've fully settled into the advantage, and maybe this is just because I use an advantage and i've got the extra little 'hint' to my brain from the keywell shape, moving back and forth to flat boards doesn't cause any issues. I'm not missing keys because of the stagger differences, which I think was the primary concern.
The only things I keep on a separate layer are some multimodified keys that I use for window management, the f-row, and random things like keyboard backlight and bluetooth stuff, and a few macros.
Happy user for 1+ year here
I have been a die hard fan of Keyboardio and their Model 01/100 since their first kickstarter.
Similar benefits, better quality, and personally an improved layout. The fun-key being on my palm is incredible.
After a lot of time and well over $1,000, the 2 things that solved it for me were: (1) get a soft, membrane-style wireless keyboard and put it in my lap when I type. I've found the Logitech MX Keys to be the most comfortable. (2) Use compression arm bands when typing. They're cheap.
All-in, you're looking at about $150 for a high-comfort solution. YMMV.
It even comes with an OEM red trackpoint nipple but I swapped mine out for a blue one.
I tried the Kinesis, the Ergodox, and the Moonlander, but something about them didn't quite suit me. I think they all had similarly oversized thumb clusters, which I found very uncomfortable.
My current setup is the Voyager with homerow mods, which is super comfortable and I manage to mostly avoid typos.
edit: I should also say I'm an avid Emacs user.
I split my time about 50/50 between the Voyager and my macbook's keyboard and mostly have no problem with the difference in layouts, but I wish I could set up layers on the macbook keyboard the same way I can with the Voyager.
Its a customizable ergonomic keyboard that requires zero special software on the host machine. It enables me to use the full features of the keyboard on highly restricted work machines.
I also bounce operating systems a lot, so I programmed multiple layers (and light color pallets) to unify all the different os keymaps. If I am on a mac, hit the useless red button until the keyboard turns green. On windows, until it turns blue. On debian, until it turns red. Then just go.
Its a lot of work to setup initially, but then it works everywhere forever.
The amount of pinky stagger and the thumb cluster position are critically important for comfort.
Personally I use a handwired Mitosis (the original Mitosis was unreliable for me but the layout perfect).
Ergodox is awful for me, particularly the reaching needed to use the thumb cluster.
The Ferris comes close but in the end I configured and 3D printed my own keyboard, tailored specifically for me:
https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/building_my_ulti...
Why is justified text so bad on the web? And why do people still use it, despite how terrible it looks? When I was in journalism school I learned how to properly justify text with line breaks, tracking, and other techniques to make sure we didn’t have “rivers” of blank space through the text or other hard-to-read layouts. Is there no way to achieve the same readable outcome today with CSS, or otherwise?
If not, I beg of you: Please don’t use justified text on the web!
Thinking now though, it would be cool to have Emacs layers on a keyboard to cover C-x etc.
Side note: in 2025 it would have been nice if ZSA would make a wireless version :(
By flattening the keywells the board requires more reach and worse outcomes though the thumbpads will probably help with most peoples wrist issues.
Far less of a learning curve and the build quality is quite good.
thorncorona•4mo ago
I have a Microsoft sculpt at work, and a macbook. The macbook keyboard has been great IME.