It seems clear to me that anything which has depression as a side effect has an increased risk of suicide as well and the only remaining truth to find is the degree.
The executives and scientists should both be prosecuted.
My whole family on both sides is bald bald. Without it I would have been bald bald in my early 20s.
I knew there were risks of hormone disruption/mood swings/etc but I still prefer it over being bald. I took a calculated risk and I'm thankful that the drug exists. Please don't prosecute the people that gave me the only real, working treatment for my baldness.
Dutasteride is not a stronger version of finasteride. It's a more effective DHT blocker, but it works differently.
The side effects are also different and not easy to predict. Some people have terrible side effects from finasteride and none from dutasteride. Some people have the opposite. And some people can tolerate either one. We don't have a way at the moment to reliably predict which one will work better or be better tolerated for a given individual.
Anyway, I'm glad it has worked for you, and I also would not want to prosecute people who've created a medication that's one of the most effective and well-tolerated around.
Idk about you, but i know 10s of different friends who also went through hairloss and were struggling to stop it, who went through severe depression, loss of confidence, suicidal tendencies in extreme cases.
Just because you saw a study that X drug causes side effects/harms in 1-0.1% of patients, doesnt mean the med should be taken off sale especially for a drug as important as finasteride.
It’s easy for someone to say it’s just a cosmetic drug until they go through the full extent of social, mental, and even physical damage, hairloss at a young age causes.
I and almost everyone who takes finasteride take it knowing the risk of a whole range of side effects , often far more severe then just increasing risk of depression. like risk of reduction in fertility, libido in some patients often struggling with obesity.
Obesity creates a whole range of problems too, should we start prosecuting creators of tasty food too ? , fin 1mg is one of the most impactful drugs sold globally both under brand names and generic cheap drugs (i take a generic one) that is life changing for almost a quarter or more of men depending on the country who face male pattern baldness and its related issues.
More studies certainly should be done in link of depression and suicide in some patient cases, but bringing out the pitchfork like luddites and asking to prosecute executives and scientists for a non-opiod, non-addictive, drug that’s been used safely for decades across generations, and saved families thousands of dollars (including mine) in snake oil salesman products that claim to treat hairloss but dont. They should get awards, not pitchforks.
For what? Many drugs have depression as a possible side effect, but that doesn’t mean they should be pulled from the market and executives prosecuted for simply the possibility of depression.
Negative reactions to drugs are always a possibility. Weighing the risks and tradeoffs and monitoring patients is important. This is why drugs like this are not OTC.
If there was some indication that the pharmaceutical company knew of and concealed evidence that finasteride caused depression/suicidality, then there could be grounds for criminal prosecution. But a non-consensus view in hindsight that a drug might increase depression looks more like a losing civil liability claim.
> It is difficult to imagine what data could justify hiding in a drug safety review.
I've been sceptical of any direct relationship between "post-finasteride syndrome" and sexual function, but I've never doubted the direct effect on mental health of suppressing dihydrotestosterone in cis men. (Even if the pharmacological effects end shortly after cessation, which I suspect, a sudden and unexplained strong feeling of constant wrongness can be traumatic.) The part I find interesting is that most men seem to be just fine with taking finasteride, even orally.
We have a lot of data about trans women taking finasteride as part of HRT and depression, and the clear correlation runs in the exact opposite direction from what this article is talking about.
> Relative to testosterone, DHT is considerably more potent as an agonist of the androgen receptor (AR).
>> Relative to testosterone, DHT is considerably more potent as an agonist of the androgen receptor (AR).
Judging from this and your other comments in the thread, I'm assuming you're not an endocrinologist.
You're pulling quotes from tertiary sources that at first glance seem to support the argument you're making, but you're missing the broader context, which is that pharmacokinetics and our endocrine systems are way more complicated than you're giving them credit for. It's not as simple as "drug A makes X go down, and X does Y, so A decreases Y".
It would make a lot of people's jobs much easier if that were the case, but the clinical reality is actually much more complicated.
Sure but that's besides the point. I was responding to - and refuting - the claom:
> Reports from trans people, way back in the 1940s, show clear links between sex hormones and depression: a priori, one would assume such a relationship would exist here.
There's no reason to believe that the effects of hormones on depression in trans people are predictive of hormones taken by cis people in completely different doses for different reasons, but it's especially fallacious to assume that it's not only predictive, but predictive of the the exact opposite effect.
This is a really weird argument because it gets so many basic facts wrong. The most fundamental of which is the idea that taking finasteride means lower testosterone levels - it doesn't!
And I'm not even going into the issues with all the other confounding variables at play here, such as the motivations and dosing schedules for HRT being substantially different from other uses of finasteride.
I really don't know why you're bringing up data about HRT for transgender people that's nearly a century old in an article that's not about HRT, when we have plenty of data that's not only far more recent but far more germane to the topic at hand.
I think many men would also (naively) be happy to risk depression when confronted with impending hair loss. Ironically, maybe more happy chemicals are what's actually needed so we can feel like losing our hair is not the end of the world.
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Results: Compared with the controls, an increased risk of suicide attempts was observed in patients with AA, with an adjusted hazard ratio of 6.28 (95% confidence interval, 4.47-8.81). Suicide risk remained significantly elevated in AA patients when stratified by underlying psychiatric disorders. The mean age of initial suicidal behaviors was also lower in patients with AA.
Conclusions: Patients with AA had a significantly higher incidence of suicidal attempts than controls, regardless of concurrent psychiatric illness. Further studies are needed to elucidate the pathophysiology of the association between AA and suicidality. In addition, dermatologists should be aware of the increased suicidality of patients with AA.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36921592/
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Not enough time to size these in comparable numbers to this study, but would be really interesting.
Is it a net positive (reduced risk) over just going bald?
I still think it applies though; the psychological effect of being bald probably doesn't care much about the underlying cause.
There's also the fact that Alopecia Areata is actually more common in women, which I imagine exaggerates the distress compared to the more run of the mill MPB.
I realize you didn't mean to use a study on Alopecia Areata, but the difference in degree could be quite large.
I also wonder whether there's some degree of placebo going on. Patients know finasteride is anti-androgenic; perhaps when they inevitably experience some symptoms associated with hypogonadism they assume the worst and lament the choice between having hair and feeling youthful. This would also explain why many who get off finasteride don't notice their symptoms improve.
Personal bias: I've taken finasteride for years with no side effects.
Additionally, topical is not FDA approved. While not necessary for research it adds typically unwanted complications to studies.
agnishom•1h ago
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nemomarx•1h ago
I assume it still blocks enough hormones to cause mood shifts or other effects?
chimeracoder•1h ago
> I assume it still blocks enough hormones to cause mood shifts or other effects?
Endocrinology is a lot more complicated than you're giving it credit for. DHT blockers don't necessarily lower testosterone levels; they can actually increase it (although even then, the mechanism isn't as direct as you might think).
It's neither established nor a given that any side effects of finasteride have anything to do with effects on testosterone or hormone levels at all. A lot of people make that assumption, and there's reason to suspect there's truth to that hypothesis, but it's completely possible it's an unknown side effect of the drug, and there hasn't been enough study into the mechanism to understand it (in part because the side effects are relatively rare and weakly established).
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