frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Made with ♥ by @iamnishanth

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

The email they shouldn't have read

https://it-notes.dragas.net/2025/10/08/the-email-they-shouldnt-have-read/
174•miniBill•2h ago

Comments

OptionOfT•2h ago
I hope one day we get to see real names in this story.
megiddo•1h ago
What's the point of this story? Bad actors win?

Here's a hot take: Name and Shame.

If this story is true, the author should be shouting their names from the rooftop.

Instead, we get this nonsense.

draga79•1h ago
The point is: always own your data
jimmar•1h ago
> What's the point of this story? Bad actors win?

Know your contracts. Read the fine print. Be careful who you do business with. Not all companies selling services for open source software embrace the ethos that we assume they do.

After reading the story, I can understand why somebody would not name and shame. The author could be inviting lawsuits from a company that clearly has no qualms playing dirty.

draga79•1h ago
Exactly!
lucianbr•59m ago
Something I read in the story is that the legal system fails to do its job: to make society fair. There are contracts and lawyers in the story, but they do not work toward ensuring fairness or justice, they work to help the company with more laywers and less scruples.
bluGill•10m ago
I know of no legal system that doesn't fail in some way. Some are much worse than others, but all have flaws. Often correcting the flaws is worse than living with them.

Don't take the above as we should just accept the flaws. We should not. However what to do about them is a hard problem and we should not do something that makes things worse.

toss1•7m ago
can confirm — from a LOT of direct experience and having close family in the top of the legal profession — the legal system very much fails to do it's job of making society fair.

First the US legal system leaves itself wide open to abuse. All the possible legal motions that exist to ensure someone gets their fair day in court can and will be used at the very least to abuse the system and delay, delay, delay that day, and increase expenses.

The courts are also wide open to abusive suits, and consistently fail to crack down on unethical lawyers who abuse the system. I was in a case where the opposing counsel had multiple federal indictments for stealing from his partners, got off on a technicality, and was still practicing law. Since he had no reputation to protect, he used every possible dirty trick to delay and disrupt things for a decade, and in the trial itself, and was still afforded EVERY professional courtesy at every step.

And, judges themselves often have opinions which contrast with the actual law and can put their thumb on the scale in 1000 subtle ways to ensure cases come out the way they want.

The justice system itself is literally failing itself because it is failing to strictly police it's own ethics (and don't even start with the SCOTUS refusing to even make a code of conduct for itself).

Despite all this, it stumbles along with a better semblance of justice than in many other countries, but do NOT expect timely or truly fair outcomes.

The problem with being so lenient with its participants is that it functions until it does not, and when the overall population gets to the point where it perceives the justice system not working, it will build its own vigilante justice system, which will be occasionally more satisfying but will consistently work even worse.

NickC25•25m ago
>The author could be inviting lawsuits from a company that clearly has no qualms playing dirty.

Could it possibly involve a particularly litigious law firm masquerading as a tech company run by one rich asshole?

sam_lowry_•6m ago
Oracle?

Even RedHat is capable of such behaviour, and remember that the author is likely based in Italy, where companies run by crooks are the norm.

abirch•1h ago
The naming and shaming should be the top organic google result. People need to own their reputation.
Moosdijk•1h ago
>Here's a hot take: Name and Shame.

That's easier said than done, hence why Stefano probably didn't.

noirscape•1h ago
The point of this story is that open source can't protect you against a bully with a legal department at his command, and neither can it protect you against bad contract clauses. Frivolous legal threats may be frivolous, but you have to prove that in court and a lot of companies would rather take the easier way out to avoid having to do that.

The "FOSS" company never directly threatened the author, but the implication of it alone was enough to scare off both agencies. Given a lot of the tech is mixed up here on purpose, there's a few FOSS companies & vendors I can think of with legal departments that I'd describe as "pretty aggressive" and "expensive for a managed solution" that aren't solely about Exchange related services but would definitely behave like this, given their PR over the years at times has had slipped masks.

m-s-y•54m ago
> The point of this story is…

The point is that without the identifying information it might as well be a creative writing exercise.

Good anecdotes have power because they actually happened and are verifiable to some degree. This is neither.

poszlem•1h ago
This is the kind of story that perfectly captures why “open source” != “freedom.” You can run 100% FOSS software and still be completely imprisoned if you give control to a middleman.

The company in this story didn’t just sell “support”, they sold permission. They took something open, wrapped it in contracts, lock-ins, and managed-service handcuffs, and then claimed ownership of it. That’s the new vendor lock-in model: control the interface, not the code.

The chilling part isn’t that they could read customer emails, it’s that they thought it was normal. Somewhere between “managed service” and “surveillance,” the moral line vanished, replaced by legalese.

This story should be printed and taped above every government IT procurement desk. If you don’t own your servers, your keys, and your contracts, you don’t own your data, no matter how “open” the stack is.

draga79•1h ago
Totally agree (but I may be biased :-) )
mr_toad•1h ago
I disagree that you can’t own something that isn’t physically controlled by you. Almost all of us have money which is not kept on our persons or property, in banks and investments. I think people would be outraged if someone told them it belonged to the bank.

What’s really important is the laws and regulations governing ownership. Ownership in a modern society is nearly entirely a legal construct. Ownership of data shouldn’t be any different.

MYEUHD•1h ago
> I disagree that you can’t own something that isn’t physically controlled by you.

We're not talking about "something" in general, but about digital infrastructure.

> Almost all of us have money which is not kept on our persons or property, in banks and investments. I think people would be outraged if someone told them it belonged to the bank.

A better analogy is if you have a cryptocurrency wallet managed by Coinbase. You don't own. And they can in fact suspend your account (and probably take your crypto) if they don't like you.

manwe150•1h ago
I’m not sure that analogy contradicts ownership. Physical assists can be seized or stolen also (if Deloitte’s AI doesn’t like you) but it doesn’t negate the concept of ownership of those

Maybe possession would be a more accurate legal term? You can own something that isn’t in your possession (eg might have been loaned, stolen, etc) or possess something that you don’t own (eg the other side of the transaction)

jbstack•1h ago
> I think people would be outraged if someone told them it belonged to the bank.

You might find it interesting to read about 2013 Cyprus bank levy then. The government unilaterally raided people's savings accounts, taking between 6.75% and 10% as a one-off tax with essentially no warning. When you put money in the bank you are implicitly accepting the (small but real) risk that the government will come along and say "I'm having some of that" and there's nothing you can do about it.

More anecdotally, I once had to help a family friend sue a bank for several tens of thousands of pounds in the UK because they refused to pay him back his balance when he closed the account and refused to explain the reason. It took a little over 6 months to get the money back. While researching the case, I discovered countless other cases in which businesses had gone bankrupt because of delays in recovering their money from the bank. Under UK legislation, banks can and do do this if they have "suspicions" of money laundering (which can be triggered for any reason whatsoever - the suspicion doesn't have to be reasonable). Not only do they not have to explain to the customer what those suspicious are, they are legally required not to. They can hold onto your money for up to 31 days and this can be extended to up to 6 months by a court order after a hearing which you will be excluded from and likely not even know took place until after the fact.

Legally you do not own your money in the bank. Instead you own a "chose in action" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chose) which is the right to sue the bank for the money. Although it sounds similar to outright ownership, it's not the same thing.

NoMoreNicksLeft•39m ago
>I think people would be outraged if someone told them it belonged to the bank.

I have some bad news.

OutOfHere•1h ago
(deleted)
gipp•1h ago
How in the world did you read "hit piece on open source" into this article? There's nothing negative about open source at all, he's making exactly the same point as you.
chuckadams•1h ago
I'm no lawyer, but I would think the purposes for which they read your email and the actions taken subsequently are blatantly illegal, and would invalidate the entire contract.
Jolter•1h ago
Yes, but severing would end up in court versus a very belligerent party, who would do their utmost to cost you money. An organization that prioritizes safety over ethics will just suck up the extra cost, apparently.

There are companies and organizations out there fighting for what’s right in courtrooms. Invalidating troll-owned patents, striking down unfair contracts etc. Agency A was obviously not one of those organizations.

balderdash•10m ago
I worked for a very successful multinational that I think was relatively moral (at least very moral vs average - e.g. we at least stood by our commitments and contracts and didn’t try and re-trade them if they went against us) and they took the approach that they were never going to be a “soft target”: nuisance law suits - litigate don’t settle, unethical behavior by vendors or customers - we’ll see you in court. It was probably more expensive for a decade or so, but over the long run it saved a ton of money and hassle.
adrian17•1h ago
Maybe I'm confused with the timeline but the actors involved, but:

> The company offered a managed version with its own proprietary additions

Doesn't sound like open source to me?

charles_f•59m ago
I think it's one of these "reading the letter of the law" instances. European laws (or rather, laws in European countries) often mandate public sector to use open source. The reasons vary, some of them are about promoting interoperability, and avoiding vendor lock-in, digital sovereignty, and the EU commission has a principle of "public money = public code".

So using open source on someone else's computer technically fulfills that requirement, without completing some of the reasons why the requirement exist (vendor lock-in in this particular instance is particularly laughable).

elijahcarrel•1h ago
I'm sorry but this reads like AI slop. Or maybe it's not AI slop, it's just regular human-generated slop, but regardless: it's useless.

For one: it's intentionally completely unverifiable. Sure, maybe the writer's not brave enough to break their NDA by sharing names. But it's also convenient: nobody can ever poke holes in the story, or add their own context to it. The story just gets to live on its own and earn internet karma regardless of whether it's at all true.

For two: completely inconsistent. Let's take these two paragraphs:

> A few years earlier, a major public institution - let’s call it Agency A - was still running an ancient Exchange mail server. It hadn’t received security updates for ages, the anti-spam was completely ineffective, and the new regulations were clear: embrace Open Source solutions whenever possible.

> They had already received a proposal - expensive but seemingly reasonable - for a managed service, hosted by an external provider, built on an open source mail stack. The company offered a managed version with its own proprietary additions and enterprise support. The catch? The price was absurd, and Agency A already had solid infrastructure - reputable IP classes, redundant datacenters, everything working fine. We had built and maintained that environment for years, and it was still running perfectly.

So we have just learned in paragraph 1 that the current system is dated and full of security holes and missing features. In paragraph 2 we have learned that the current system's infrastructure is "solid" and "working fine". Can you really say the infrastructure is solid and working fine if it's preventing you from upgrading your Exchange mail server?

And let's take paragraph two: it says the proposal is "expensive but seemingly reasonable" and then one sentence later says "the catch? The price is absurd". How can the price be both "reasonable" and "absurd?"

Overall an annoying read.

MontyCarloHall•55m ago
I agree it's not written in the clearest way, nor verifiable (though Stefano Marinelli does seem to be a semi-public figure in the online IT community, so it's not some anonymous blog).

>So we have just learned in paragraph 1 that the current system is dated and full of security holes and missing features. In paragraph 2 we have learned that the current system's infrastructure is "solid" and "working fine".

This confused me too, until I realized that he probably meant that his company set up the hardware infrastructure ("reputable IP classes, redundant datacenters"), but doesn't manage the software. Otherwise, why shred your own credibility from the first sentence by crapping on the "ancient," "insecure," and "ineffective" Exchange server?

>How can the price be both "reasonable" and "absurd?"

Agreed, this part makes no sense.

draga79•53m ago
The price was reasonable given the average quotes received by similar entities and the prices on the market, but it was absurd when considering the service provided. Perhaps I didn't make that point clear, and I'll likely modify it slightly. The concept is that the price, which was initially acceptable to them, was in fact absurd when viewed in terms of what was being provided.
MontyCarloHall•50m ago
Ah, that makes sense. I would update it to say something like "the price was competitive with the generally overpriced market."
draga79•47m ago
I've modified this sentence, I hope it's clearer now:

They had already received a proposal - expensive but, when compared to similar offers made to other organizations, apparently reasonable — for a managed service hosted by an external provider and based on an open source mail stack. The company offered a managed version with its own proprietary additions and enterprise support.

The catch? While such pricing had become almost "normal" in the market, it was still wildly inflated considering what was actually being delivered. Agency A already had solid infrastructure - reputable IP classes, redundant datacenters, everything running smoothly. We had built and maintained that environment for years, and it was still performing perfectly.

MontyCarloHall•46m ago
Perfect! Exchanges like this are why the internet is still a great place.
draga79•43m ago
PS: thank you for your suggestion!
draga79•55m ago
Updating Exchange would have meant spending a lot on new licenses to upgrade to a new release, and public administrations were encouraged to seek open-source solutions. The underlying server infrastructure was solid, but the VM with Exchange was now old. The entire setup would have needed to be redone. The second paragraph, on the other hand, says that the quote was "acceptable" for them, knowing the average costs for that service. But it was also very high, even in the opinion of the IT manager.

This isn't AI slop. These are real-life experiences. The goal is to raise awareness that open source doesn't always and necessarily mean freedom: lock-in exists.

jotaen•47m ago
> I'm sorry but this reads like AI slop. Or maybe it's not AI slop, it's just regular human-generated slop, but regardless: it's useless.

> For one: it's intentionally completely unverifiable. Sure, maybe the writer's not brave enough to break their NDA by sharing names. But it's also convenient: nobody can ever poke holes in the story, or add their own context to it. The story just gets to live on its own and earn internet karma regardless of whether it's at all true.

I’m not sure why this would be surprising: it’s a personal story shared on a blog, not an investigative article in a newspaper.

I also don’t think it helps calling everything “AI slop” these days only if one doesn’t like it for some reason.

Workaccount2•1h ago
So make sure you fully read the fine print before signing an agreement for something.

You should do this for consumer stuff, but it's mandatory for business stuff.

morkalork•56m ago
I'm curious about about how the "unilateral amendment" works. If you didn't like the fine print in it, do you have to give your six month termination notice then and there?
danaris•21m ago
If they unilaterally amend the contract to go from 6 months' notice to 12 months' notice, then presumably you'd have to give your 12 month termination notice then and there...

...and hope they don't unilaterally amend the contract in the interim to allow them to retroactively extend the termination period.

AFAIK, "unilateral amendment" should be considered at least very suspect by most courts?

arethuza•19m ago
Unilateral amendments appear to be fairly standard legal things:

https://www.oncontracts.com/unilateral-amendments/

exe34•18m ago
doesn't it defeat the point of a contract?
kevin_nisbet•6m ago
Yup, even for smaller business stuff. For a non-profit I'm on the board of, the staff wanted a more useful printer/copy machine than just a store bought thing, it's a small office, so I said sure find something and let us know.

So I get a contract and am told it's been vetted and I should sign it. What I found was outrageous.

- If we cancelled for any reason, including if they just didn't do any of there terms in the contract, we owed the full price of the remaining contract immediately.

- The way they structured it was also as a rental, so we were paying full price for purchase of the equipment embedded into the term of the contract, but it was the vendors equipment, so if we cancelled we still paid them full price for the equipment, and they got to keep it.

- If there were any legal disputes, no matter which party was at fault, my side would pay for all the lawyers.

I said nope, can't do it. And my staff were pissed at me for like a year because everyone just signs those things.

m-s-y•58m ago
What’s the point of not naming names? This could easily be just a creative writing exercise.
bluGill•16m ago
The truth is not a defense against libel laws in all countries. Depending on where this is the poster could be out a lot of money just for naming names. As such not naming names is the safe answer.

Even in the US where the truth is a defense, you still can be out a lot of lawyer fees because you can be sued for things you say and it can cost a lot of hours in court.

93po•8m ago
a company with a history of threatening baseless lawsuits, combined with possible NDAs, or possible professional backlash when lawsuit-happy company threatens former employer. not worth it for a blog post.
justin66•41m ago
> However, to protect the privacy of the people and companies involved, I have deliberately mixed things up: technologies, contexts, and specific details have been modified or merged with other experiences.

Why wouldn’t a person stop reading there, unless they were the author’s mom or roommate or something and were reading out of politeness?

citizenpaul•10m ago
I feel like many HN'ers have been in this situation.

I was once in a confedential "back out" of a system. There was some shared code base with the other company. One of our devs made a comment that was something like "Reversing Migration Script" in the code.

In less than an hour from that commit(I didn't know at the time) I was in stuck in a firestorm WTF DID YOU DO battle between the two CEO's of the companies. It turns out that the other company was ACTIVELY spying for such terms in the code so they could react if we tried to leave. It was going to be an honest non renewal at the end of the contract so not even anything shady. I didn't find out till later about how they were spying out so there was this huge witch hunt about who was the rat and such. It was awful.

It seems this level of sociopathy is just the norm these days and I'm just an old fuddy duddy doing regular honest work.

With this tool non-designers can design

https://webstudio.is/ai
1•oleg009•29s ago•1 comments

One-time nitrogen application boosts ammonia emissions in maize fields

https://phys.org/news/2025-09-nitrogen-application-boosts-ammonia-emissions.html
1•PaulHoule•3m ago•0 comments

The damage done – Nature Medicine

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-025-03994-z
1•rbanffy•3m ago•1 comments

Open Source Mega-Constellations Could Solve Overcrowding – Universe Today

https://www.universetoday.com/articles/open-source-mega-constellations-could-solve-overcrowding
1•rbanffy•3m ago•0 comments

A deep dive into the RSS feed reader landscape

https://lighthouseapp.io/blog/feed-reader-deep-dive
1•domysee•3m ago•0 comments

Defunct Keys and Odd Commands Still Bedevil Today's PC User (1999)

https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/tech/99/08/circuits/articles/12keys.html
1•thefilmore•4m ago•0 comments

The Underestimated

https://aishwaryagoel.com/the-underestimated/
1•agcat•5m ago•0 comments

IBM invites CockroachDB to infest its mainframes with PostgreSQL

https://www.theregister.com/2025/10/08/ibm_cockroachdb_mainframe_postgres/
2•rntn•8m ago•0 comments

Free Sunrise Dubai Downtown UAE Timelapse Video

https://www.patreon.com/posts/free-sunrise-uae-135481525
1•techwrath11•8m ago•0 comments

Discord: Update on a Security Incident Involving Third-Party Customer Service

https://discord.com/press-releases/update-on-security-incident-involving-third-party-customer-ser...
1•secstate•10m ago•0 comments

Show HN: TypeMyVibe – Find your Personality type from Reddit, X, or chat data

https://typemyvibe.ai/
2•hritik1999•11m ago•1 comments

Offline Math: Converting LaTeX to SVG with MathJax

https://sigwait.org/~alex/blog/2025/10/07/3t8acq.html
1•furkansahin•12m ago•0 comments

Fortunate Sons: How Trump Admin Children Are Earning Billions

https://whalehunting.projectbrazen.com/fortunate-sons-how-trump-admin-children-are-earning-billions/
3•PaywallBuster•12m ago•0 comments

Show HN: PredictionHunt – Compare probabilities across prediction markets

https://predictionhunt.com/
1•carushow•17m ago•0 comments

I Made My Own Fountain Pen

https://brainbaking.com/post/2025/10/i-made-my-own-fountain-pen/
1•Brajeshwar•17m ago•0 comments

Show HN: SemanticTest – Test AI agents with semantic validation (open source)

https://www.semantictest.dev
1•alessandro-a•18m ago•0 comments

Rover: Manage multiple coding agents in parallel from your terminal

https://github.com/endorhq/rover
1•ereslibre•18m ago•0 comments

After 2 decades of tinkering, MAME cracks the Hyper Neo Geo 64

https://www.readonlymemo.com/mame-hyper-neo-geo-support-sound-emulation/
3•cainxinth•19m ago•0 comments

Dewaffling the Tech Industry

https://deadsimpletech.com/blog/dewaffling_tech
3•todsacerdoti•20m ago•0 comments

Beyond Indexes: How Open Table Formats Optimize Query Performance

https://jack-vanlightly.com/blog/2025/10/8/beyond-indexes-how-open-table-formats-optimize-query-p...
2•jandrewrogers•20m ago•0 comments

Renewables Supplying More Power Globally Than Coal

https://e360.yale.edu/digest/iea-renewable-energy-2025
1•Brajeshwar•20m ago•0 comments

Wi-Fi Signals Can Be Used to Detect Your Heartbeat

https://spectrum.ieee.org/wi-fi-signal-heartbeat-detection
1•Brajeshwar•21m ago•0 comments

Show HN: TrendyZip – See how much US homes sell over asking price

https://trendyzip.com/access-code/hnoct25free
2•tndibona•24m ago•0 comments

Why this one area of cities is usually the poorest

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/10/08/air-pollution-wind-urban-poverty-east/
2•asnyder•24m ago•1 comments

Vibe Coding: Closing the Feedback Loop with Traceability

https://blog.sentry.io/vibe-coding-closing-the-feedback-loop-with-traceability/
1•TechSquidTV•25m ago•0 comments

Show HN: Recursive Reasoning with Tiny Networks in the Browser

https://claude.ai/public/artifacts/523e6475-1978-4409-9614-8b3a24e66e08
1•ToJans•25m ago•0 comments

The Nature of Leisure Revisited – An Interpretation of Digital Leisure (2015) [pdf]

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/132092719.pdf
1•robtherobber•26m ago•0 comments

Collection of Examples from Three.js Forums

https://hofk.de/main/discourse.threejs/
1•gregsadetsky•27m ago•0 comments

Dynamic Levels of Detail in Evolve

https://www.evolvebenchmark.com/blog-posts/dynamic-levels-of-detail-in-evolve
1•evolve_•29m ago•0 comments

If you buy more than two new games a year, you're in the minority

https://www.eurogamer.net/if-you-buy-more-than-two-new-games-a-year-youre-in-the-minority-new-rep...
4•MBCook•31m ago•1 comments