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Software update bricks some Jeep 4xe hybrids over the weekend

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2025/10/software-update-bricks-some-jeep-4xe-hybrids-over-the-weekend/
90•gloxkiqcza•1h ago

Comments

omneity•1h ago
So how long until software in cars is treated with the same seriousness and rigor as the software in airplanes?
onei•1h ago
That's what MISRA C [1] is sort of meant to be.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MISRA_C

aduty•1h ago
Mopar and dead car.
thayne•1h ago
Why does an OtA update even have the ability to brick the entire vehicle?

The infotainment system should be completely isolated from the driving system.

jsight•1h ago
I'm guessing that it has features like "remote start" and that these features weren't designed particularly well.
SoftTalker•41m ago
What does it mean to "start" an EV?
dotancohen•37m ago
Pre-warm the battery, pre-heat or cool the interior, enable the defrosters.
monocularvision•35m ago
Turn on the temperature control system?
jabroni_salad•35m ago
it clicks a relay. Just like with ICE vehicles people usually use it to warm up their car in the winter.

Also, batteries may need to be preconditioned if too hot or cold. A lot of EVs let you set your ideal departure time in a widget as opposed to using a remote though.

SilverElfin•1h ago
I’ve noticed that newer cars seem to get updates that affect performance. Things like how they shift gears.
varjag•1h ago
As long as it exchanges information (mundane things like muting the music when parking sensors have to be heard, requesting battery/fuel status for advising the next fill stop etc) the isolation can't be entirely complete.
dotancohen•38m ago
How about read only over an optic cable?
Consultant32452•1h ago
The infotainment system on my car can make changes to the suspension. Can change from street to track mode and even has a launch mode I can initiate for starting a timed 0-60, etc.

I can also put the car into valet mode so it won’t go fast. If I forget the valet mode password I am told I have to buy a very expensive replacement because it can’t be unlocked by a dealer.

Someone1234•57m ago
You're starting out with an assumption, that this is an OTA update for the infotainment system, and then conclude this incident shouldn't be possible. The problem is the assumption.

This is a OTA vehicle update. It has the ability to update the infotainment, ECU, ECM, TCM, and BCM. Multiple manufacturers have been able to release recalls that fix major vehicle defects (safety, reliability, and performance). That wouldn't be possible without OTA updates that update core vehicle computer systems.

Unclear where this idea that OTA = Infotainment came from. I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025.

SirFatty•53m ago
"I'd go as far as to say that most manufacturers can do this in 2025."

What does that have to do with OP's comment? And their point is still valid, and OTA update should not be able to brick a vehicle, regardless of the system receiving the update. And regardless if "they all can do it".

Someone1234•47m ago
It has everything to do with it.

If OTA updates can update core vehicle computer systems, in ways that can correct safety, performance, and reliability problems then they can also brick that vehicle.

The manufacturer has the ability to push an update that reprograms computers that control how physical components behave in a vehicle. By the very nature of that; they can push good or evil updates.

aardvarkr•43m ago
Any update can brick your device if done poorly. This device just happens to be a car.

You misunderstood what OP was saying. They claimed that an update to the infotainment system shouldn’t be able to brick the other systems in the car. The response points out the car’s OTA update subroutine has access to update every critical system in the car by design. It’s flawed logic to assume that OTA updates only affect the infotainment system.

goda90•52m ago
> Unclear where this idea that OTA = Infotainment came from.

Because to some people, the idea of an OTA update being allowed to change mission critical parts of a machine automatically without a solid rollback system is absurd, and the best way to do that is to never do OTA updates of mission critical parts at all.

sleepybrett•19m ago
... but then you'd have to pay mechanics at dealerships to do it. Middleman cutting.
general1465•11m ago
Rollback is getting extinct for security reasons. When you will screw up, you need to do a new release. Hopefully screwed part is still talking.
photochemsyn•52m ago
Why didn't the vehicle manufacturers robustly test their software systems on their vehicle's hardware before releasing the product to the public?
nilamo•51m ago
...because the very first paragraph of the article says it was an infotainment update? Thanks for the info, tho.
rjsw•32m ago
The infotainment system can be the gateway to the rest of the vehicle network. It makes sense to attach a 4G modem to the display head to do mapping, hands free calling or emergency response, you may as well use it to download ECU updates too.
cameldrv•20m ago
This should be made illegal. It’s a massive national security threat. Imagine on the eve of a war, instead of Jeep 4xes, it’s every recent Ford or Toyota or GM car, and instead of a software update that can be rolled back, it wipes the flash completely, or reprograms the ECU to damage the engine or disable the brakes on the highway or something else to cause accidents.
tetraodonpuffer•10m ago
most cars these days have GPS and return location and so on, why can't manufacturer run these updates only at night and when the car is parked at home? There should be no reason for any OTA update to happen while the vehicle is running (or on a trip etc.), downloading the OTA update, sure, but definitely not applying it. Also there should be a documented procedure to restore the previous in case an OTA update fails.
ActorNightly•48m ago
Because cost. Same reason why dash clusters and infotainment systems are now all monitors - its actually way cheaper to use those than analog gauges. The software is built on a famous bullshit paradigm of "never rewrite, always reuse", and as a result shit gets patched together without any concern of how everything cooperates.

Now with hybrid or electrical drives, a motor controller is basically a package that runs its own software, which then interfaces with the rest of the car. And OTA updates can overwrite its firmware.

The only manufacturer that has avoided most issues is Toyota, since they have been doing hybrids for quite some time. Other companies are just starting on this path and to catch up, they can't be bothered to do software deep dives and figure shit out.

0cf8612b2e1e•47m ago
Why does the update even happen while in motion?
antiloper•25m ago
The article doesn't go into a lot of details, but it only says that the bug happens while in motion, not that the software update itself happened while in motion:

> The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem.

joezydeco•18m ago
They're not isolated anymore, Tesla set this precedent and now everyone is trying to copy them. Volvo is having the same set of problems.
uptown•6m ago
I had an OTA update brick my Tahoe infotainment system. Now that backup cameras are standard requirements, those were all unusable. Also affected things like the clicking sound you hear when you use your turn signal. That was completely silent. Cost me ~$2k to get it fixed and wasn't covered under warranty. Good stuff. I've disable future "updates".
sailfast•1h ago
And… Stellantis is up 3.5% right now in public trading. Nothing makes sense anymore haha
nemomarx•1h ago
"no such thing as bad publicity" maybe?
Someone1234•53m ago
It is likely an unrelated correction. They are still down -7.92% over five days; this is just making it so they aren't -11.42%.
dehrmann•48m ago
It's getting priced like an easy-to-fix recall that affects some cars of a specific model for one of their brands.
antiloper•44m ago
It's a bug. Why should a software bug have an effect on a manufacturer's stock price? It's not like the update caused brake failures or something.
zettabomb•27m ago
Well, given that the article says it caused powertrain failures on the highway, I'd say it's severe enough that it should absolutely cause the manufacturer's stock to drop.
deadbabe•1h ago
Truly can’t believe the shit coming out of these automakers now that AI assisted coding has become so commonplace in the industry.
pavel_lishin•52m ago
Do we have any actual evidence that AI-assisted coding has anything to do with this?
ungreased0675•1h ago
So many layers of failure here. It points to very suspect architecture and development practices, the bad update is just sprinkles on top.
netsharc•52m ago
The cars needs a partition for the running OS, and a second as backup, and "reboot to recovery partition" to fall back to in case the update breaks.

Hah, curious to think that cars now have bootloaders...

antiloper•41m ago
Cars probably have multiple bootloaders even. Surely there are at least two, one for the ECU and one for the infotainment system. Perhaps there are even more depending on how complex components like parking cameras etc. are.
stuff4ben•1m ago
I suppose some version of CTRL-ALT-DELETE is needed to reset the car's OS.
marssaxman•46m ago
The first layer of failure was the decision to make the car computer-controlled.
dotancohen•39m ago
That came after the decisions to reduce both costs and tailpipe emissions - both obvious worthy goals. Is the implementation that is flawed, not the idea.
sleepybrett•15m ago
Why would cars be the only thing we wouldn't manage with computers?
marssaxman•9m ago
We could, but we shouldn't, because most software is crap. When the user is stuck with whatever software they got as a consequence of buying the machine they actually wanted, there's no incentive for the software not to be crap.
EvanAnderson•41m ago
Discussion from over the weekend: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45558318
dec0dedab0de•41m ago
I've had a Jeep for a few months, and it bothers me so much that the entire community is about modifying the vehicle as much as possible, but they still come with this locked down OS.

If any car could be the champion of OpenSource, it is a Jeep Wrangler, but they're using an OS made by SiriusXM for some reason.

rglover•39m ago
I can't for the life of me understand why infotainment systems knock so many engineers for a loop. Is there a particular reason (industry/domain-specific) beyond just low-quality software development?

My Mazda 3 (2018) just had a class action lawsuit for its infotainment system which, completely at random after years of normal operation, starts clicking on menu items and scrolling about the settings (only to stop and not do it again for a couple of months). It can get so bad you just have to disconnect any devices and drive in silence/with the AM/FM radio.

catigula•36m ago
You get a new device every year and teams of professionals are constantly churning updates for it.

With cars, you don't get to get a new device, it has to be consistent and keep working and you had better make it all work with a skeleton crew.

sleepybrett•16m ago
I worked at a company that did software for these connected infotainment system. They cost cut those things to the bone, minimal ram, minimal cpu, shit screens. Even in the high end models.

Gotta remember that the car radio has always been a cheap gimme.

pankalog•36m ago
I recently worked at a big home lighting company, working on the OS of the router device that communicates with the light bulbs themselves and the internet/user.

Our OTAU architecture uses A/B system updates [1]. Core idea is that both the kernel and the rootfs (read-only) partitions had 2 different bootslots in storage, and the OTAU would only write to the bootslot that is unused. Hence, if something went wrong, the system would automatically fallback to the previous version by just switching the bootslot used. Over the numerous years that that architecture was used, I couldn't find a single post-mortem that resulted in devices being bricked. Something to note is that the rootfs partition was overlaid with a writable partition for persisting state data etc.

Now that was a $two-figure USD device, not a $5/6-figure USD electric SUV. Is this a cost-cutting measure? At those price levels, doubling your NAND size is not even half of a percent of the total cost of the vehicle.

Unless there was a serious issue that the used bootslot corrupted the unused bootslot, then I don't see how this could have happened.

It's saddening that car manufacturers are so unserious about the code they're deploying.

[1] https://source.android.com/docs/core/ota/ab

apex_sloth•33m ago
We used to do that with device that where in difficult to reach places with harsh uptime requirement! Think industrial routers and protocol converters. I think it pays for itself very quickly. Sending someone for such a device can get expensive.
CoastalCoder•31m ago
That's a good point.

I'm curious if failing to do that opens Jeep up to legitimate lawsuits.

ThatMedicIsASpy•29m ago
I've had a bunch of updates break some stuff but since moving to Fedora Atomics/ublue I've never had a system I could not get back into.
kijin•27m ago
I once managed to brick a PC motherboard that advertised "dual BIOS". It didn't fallback to the previous version after a botched BIOS update.

It's totally possible that the update corrupted the other bootslot as well. If those blocks aren't off-limits to the updater program, it's just an off-by-one error waiting to happen. Slot 0 or slot 1?

Another possibility is that the updated version booted up just enough not to trigger the automatic fallback, and then got stuck in a loop.

palmotea•26m ago
> Now that was a $two-figure USD device, not a $5/6-figure USD electric SUV. Is this a cost-cutting measure? At those price levels, doubling your NAND size is not even half of a percent of the total cost of the vehicle.

Could just be a competence and priorities problem. If it's cost cutting, it feels way more likely that some PM cut some story from a sprint to hit a deadline (and objections were either not raised or ignored), than they did some engineering analysis and explicitly decided to save $3 per vehicle by cutting the NAND size.

Edit: Actually, I don't think that technique would have helped, the problem wasn't a botched update, but a seriously buggy one. From the OP:

> The buggy update doesn't appear to brick the car immediately. Instead, the failure appears to occur while driving—a far more serious problem.

general1465•14m ago
> Edit: Actually, I don't think that technique would have helped, the problem wasn't a botched update, but a seriously buggy one. From the OP:

That and combined with general refusal of new automotive bootloaders to downgrade. You can go only up in versioning. So even that you could have working version on second partition, it will never get loaded because it has lower version than currently one you are running.

monero-xmr•24m ago
All those words you are saying, it's quite possible the sub-contractor to the sub-contractor to the sub-contractor in a foreign low-cost country that actually did the work has absolutely no idea what any of that means, and they are doing the bare minimum to deliver
jacquesm•13m ago
Well, on the positive side, at least they were stationary. Don't get me started on botched OTA updates, there are so many ways companies get those wrong it's not even funny.
avidiax•5m ago
I have heard anecdotally that auto manufacturers are sensitive to a price change less than $5/vehicle. This is better than some industries that are sensitive to $1.

What could easily have happened is that the negotiators didn't include A/B updates in their spec, or they only specced A/B updates at 1GB OTA size.

They do their usual hammering on price, and the head unit or ECU manufacturer gave them some savings by cutting storage space to the bone.

Maybe it was still enough for A/B updates, until the usual software bloat took the updates past the critical limit.

They could still do a safe update by doing an A/B/A update (where B is a shrunken, update-only OS), but that requires development time, and the engineers should already be working on the next vehicle.

devy•17m ago
Someone correct me if I am wrong, we've haven't heard that Tesla OTA updates bricking people's cars.

They implemented a dual redundant system similar like the dual BIOS for motherboard since 1999.

artemonster•1m ago
leadership problem, as everywhere. old grampas that used to manually draw gears on paper now have to "strategically align" a huge corporation that has to deal with new shiny and complicated things like software and they all have zero fucking clue. at least with cars you can always try to safely stop, with planes - not so possible. this will also soon creep up there.

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