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Benjie's Humanoid Olympic Games

https://generalrobots.substack.com/p/benjies-humanoid-olympic-games
60•robobenjie•1h ago

Comments

robobenjie•1mo ago
Hey Hacker News. Curious if folks feel like I'm missing categories of challenge.
mjq7•1mo ago
How about something with unpacking items from a shopping bag, i suspect the difference in bags (standard plastic, reusable etc) and certain items can really crank the difficulty.

It can also create a good time of a story - open the door to get the grocery delivery, unpack the delivery etc.

meeech•1h ago
something requiring navigating stairs while holding something full like a laundry basket. bronze - straight stairs, silver - one 90deg turn. gold - spiral.

something requiring co-ordination between 2 robots. think relay race which the olympics has. So say, moving a couch together.

btw love the idea and the silver body suit. good stuff.

robobenjie•55m ago
Ooh. I like full body manipulation. Humans use hips & elbows to move laundry baskets. Two robot collaboration is good too. I wonder who I can convince to wear another silver suit.... :)
levocardia•1h ago
Maybe careful application of large amounts of force? Opening a jar, peeling garlic, splitting a squash, opening a soda can. This category seems like a good test of "grip" strength + force feedback + sense of touch.
amirhirsch•1h ago
I like these benchmarks and the videos are funny!

Consider examples using building tools like screwing in a drywall screw, or hammering a nail, using a paint roller, caulking a sink, minor plumbing repair with a torch and solder. These differ enough in terms of forces, state changes, and combined dexterity/acuity (two-handed proprioception) from the windex, sandwich and key examples

Ikea product assembly for gold medal.

nancyminusone•1h ago
I'd go for something in the manipulation of ropes or wires.

State of the art seems to be that they can untangle a loosely knotted cord.

Untying a short rope with a tightly pulled overhand knot in the middle seems like it's decades away. You have to be able to grip it well enough, then twist the rope and push (even though every physicist says pushing a rope is impossible).

robobenjie•1h ago
Interesting. Futurism is super hard, but "decades" too far away to me. I think with strong 2 finger grippers this is probably close to state of the art, especially with a wrist force sensor, like the TRI setup.
calepayson•32m ago
Belaying a climber would be a hilarious (and fraught) gold medal challenge.
nashashmi•1h ago
Robots currently do things easy and faster to do for robot but difficult to do for man.
tintor•1h ago
threading a needle
vasco•59m ago
Carving a wooden spoon in hand.
robotresearcher•55m ago
Standard evening family home tidy/reset - toys, books, clothes, shoes away in their places. All over the house.

Oh, and load/unload dishwasher. Same with laundry machines. Along with folding laundry, these are the domestic robot equivalents of 'de-mining' and 'search and rescue': the classic motivating use cases for mobile autonomous robots.

Mistletoe•31m ago
I love your list and it makes me think we are so far away from these things ever being feasible/cost effective compared to just hiring a poor person to do it. And the world is making a lot of poor people right now.
fragmede•30m ago
(HN link on Substack points at empty page instead of this one, at least before I made this comment.)

What I think is missing is marathon events. Biathalons and Triathalons.

We all know LLMs have a rather limited context window. Thus seeing robots do longer chains of events would be interesting to see that they're capable than a possibly rigged demo.

Something like: move a stack of boxes from one room to another. The boxes at the end also need to be stacked up. or how about pick up a box, go up some stairs, open a door, and put the box on a shelf on the other side.

Also, the real world is sloppy and messy and dirty and, to be real, kinda janky sometimes. Gold for unlocking a door with a key at a well-maintained office complex, (and opening it, and walking through it) is one thing, because facilities is going to replace the lock before it gets old and needs replacing, and we can assume the door fits in the frame properly so it doesn't need to be shoved or lifted up or yanked in order to be opened is easier than. But the real world is messy and sloppy and you gotta jiggle the key in just the right way in order to get it to work.

Closing the door (assuming the robots weren't raised in a robot barn) is also harder than it looks if the door is shitty and needs a proper slam in order to be fully closed. Also, the robot locking the door behind itself after it comes in. Scanning a key card and opening a door, but the first try fails.

We're a long way from a general robot that can screw a simple screw together like you would to assemble Ikea furniture.

Object recognition.

Gather only the dishes from a messy coffee table and put them in the dish bin.

Pick up only the clothes from a messy floor and bed, and put them in the hamper.

Dump a hamper of clothes onto a table, and sort out stuff that doesn't want to go into the washing machine.

Terrain traversal.

Just walk 500 ft, but theres increasing levels of obstacles in the way.

We all saw Boston dynamics robot parkour videos, but what I want to see is a robot make it from the front door of Simpsons house to the kitchen in the back, but it's got to go through the living room, but it's hella messy, with Maggie and Bart and Lisa’s crap strewn all over, Homer’s got some beer bottles, some empty, some full, all over the floor and on the table, and all the robot has to do is walk from one side of the room to the far side of the room without stepping on anything, or knocking anything over. (Simpsons merely being a home layout that's familiar to most people. Doesn't need to actually be them.)

Ducking under a low ceiling. Climb over a barrier, of varying shapes and sizes.

Other loocomotion. how much weight in its arms in front of it, holding a 5-lb briefcase with one hand while walking. Can it carry something on its back? What's the limit? Can it give piggyback rides?

A category for simulated. Let companies show off their robot's kinematics control systems, so have something on the level of CoppeliaSim, so the motors and the gears and the actuators are themselves simulated, vs a simple 3d video game where they are not. Plug their model into the simulated robot and see how well it just walks. If we remember QWOP, it's harder than it looks!

Obviously it's not going to be totally 100% accurate to the real world. The benefit of this is it lets people complete from all over world without having to replicate a very specific setup in the physical world, and compete from wherever they live am not have to fly to your facility to test, opening up a whole new world of contestants because they can now compete because they can afford it now.

At the end of the day, the most important challenge is, can it pick up a battery from the shelf, swap it with one of the two in its chassis, and put the dead one it just pulled out onto the charger?

dmillard•1mo ago
Interesting post and great reference to [1] about why laundry hits a sweet spot of capability.

Interestingly the repeated critiques in the article are about sensor richness: primarily force feedback and tactility, which indicates lacking hardware. Software only robotics has a long and fraught history, but it really feels to me that current industrial hardware could be driven more intelligently without much change. No doubt the "ideal" robot for any given task requires developments in both.

I'm also curious about safety, since generally capable mechanisms need a multilayered safety stack that includes semantics, and cobot certification is likely not enough anymore. Examples: feeding someone the wrong pill, pouring a glass of water into electronics, cutting vegetables vs fingers.

[1] https://substack.com/redirect/82d94852-76b6-4b0d-8595-86e46a...

HarshP123•1mo ago
This is amazing!!
jerrybmarchant•1h ago
What are your thoughts on this? Where do we stand?

https://substack.com/@isitpropaganda/note/c-167073531?utm_so...

bee_rider•1h ago
Rather than teaching your robot to fold inside-out clothes, you should teach it to attack people who put their clothes in the hamper inside out.
arscan•1h ago
I think my shirts just automatically get inside-outted in my washer/dryer? I certainly don’t put them in that way, and it seems like I spend a lot of righting them when putting away laundry.
bee_rider•1h ago
Try putting some in inside-out and seeing if they get turned outside-out.

I’m also curious which device does it!

We should work this out, and also we will need a lot of robots to go after the manufacturer.

blauditore•1h ago
I agree, but in some cases it makes sense to protect the print. Although I habe no idea if it actually helps.
dylan604•39m ago
If it's vinyl applied with heat (numbers on a jersey as an example), they recommend turning inside out. That way, if it gets too hot in the dryer, it only sticks to itself instead of to other garments. Losing the one garment is better than multiple.
toast0•1h ago
I've seen suggestions that having your clothes inside out in the wash helps them get cleaner. And if it keeps the AIs under control, you know, benefits.
nashashmi•1h ago
Clothe instruction care sometimes requires washing clothes inside out.
bnjmn•1h ago
Here's a use case that seems more science fictional to me (as the parent of a 2yo) than warp drive: a robot that can gently restrain an uncooperative human baby while changing its diaper, with everything that entails: identifying and eliminating all traces of waste from all crevices, applying diaper cream as necessary, unfolding and positioning the new diaper correctly and quickly, always using enough but never too much force... not to mention the nightmare of providing any guarantees about safety at mass-market scale. Even one maimed baby, or even just a baby some robot neglects to prevent from falling off the changing table, is game over for that line of robots.

Is there any research program that could claim to tackle this? It's so far beyond folding laundry and doing dishes, which are already quite difficult.

I wouldn't bet my life on this tech _never_ materializing, but I would mistrust anyone who claimed it was feasible with today's tech. It calls for an entirely different kind of robotic perception, feedback, and control.

robobenjie•1h ago
This is a great one. The manipulation is hard, but we're probably on a trajectory to be able to do it in 1-3 years if you were tolerant of some risk to the baby, but, of course, your tolerance for injuring babies is basically zero. I think 'risk & reliability' is a good potential category: there is the bar of 'got it to do a task reliably enough that we got a video' and the bar of 'got it to do a task reliably enough that I'd risk an infant in its grippers.
dylan604•49m ago
> your tolerance for injuring babies is basically zero.

Um, no it's not. Is absolutely zero tolerance. There is not weasel words out of this. If a robot was to cause any pain to the baby, there would be no remorse. There would be no front of mind thoughts to not repeat the same thing the next time. There would be no guilt for causing pain to the baby.

Why you would "basically" this the way you have is disturbing.

poly2it•32m ago
I don't think the parent comment advocates for hurting babies. It just, probably correctly, states that cherry picked examples won't be representative of roboty safety with infants in the next years, but that true safety will improve over time as well.
robobenjie•12m ago
Sorry, this is me communicating like an engineer. In a technical sense risk of anything can only approach zero: never actually get there. I meant that there should be essentially zero chance, similar to holding a baby in your arms or putting it in a high chair, and probably less chance of injury than driving in a car with a baby in a car-seat. Basically zero.
Judgmentality•34m ago
> but we're probably on a trajectory to be able to do it in 1-3 years

This is wildly optimistic. I quit working in robotics because I got tired of all the bullshit promises everybody made all the time. I'm not saying robotics isn't advancing or the work is unimportant, but the spokespeople are about as reliable as Musk when it comes to timelines.

I doubt it will happen in 10 years, even with a constrained environment and hardware that costs well into 6 digits.

robotresearcher•58m ago
> It would require an entirely different kind of robotics.

I was 100% with you until suddenly this technical claim pops out. You might feel this way, and might be right, but why? Changing a diaper is crazy hard, I absolutely agree, but you seem to be just declaring from vibes that we 'require an entirely different kind of robotics'. Can you put your finger on why this is true?

Not nitpicking for the fun of it - I'm genuinely interested. Robot person.

dylan604•45m ago
Well, Mr Robot person, would you let today's robotics change your clothes right now? If you wouldn't, then why would you allow it any where near a baby? If you would, why? What robot with what tech would you allow?
trhway•39m ago
> a baby some robot neglects to prevent from falling off the changing table

that is when we think about 2 handed robots. 6 handed robot can easily have 2-3 hands assigned to tightly keeping the baby. Humanoid robots are handicapped by their similarity to humans which is really an artificial constraint. After all we aren't building airplanes using birds as the blueprint.

On the similar note - while not about baby, was just rewatching an early Bing Bang Theory season with this episode where Howard "falls right into the mechanical hand"

Onavo•23m ago
Why? There's nothing particularly special about this problem. I would bet a year for an alpha version, and production version in 5 years. We are not exactly limited by mechanical engineering here, there's nothing particularly unique about the human hand that can't be replicated. Tele operated surgical robotics have been a thing for decades. Give it a few months for the multimodal robotic VLM/LAMs to catch up. In many ways this particular problem is a lot more well defined than e.g. self driving cars.
XCSme•31m ago
I don't know, for me it looks like the demo robot already does it quite well.
byearthithatius•19m ago
Think about how fast progress is being made now. When I was a kid in the early 2000s we would see some basic robot progress on movements (almost always from Boston Dynamics or sometimes China) and we thought it was incredible. Robot dogs running was amazing and five or so years later a backflip blew our minds. Those robots were specially designed and didn't look humanoid. Now we have bi-pedal humanoid robots and they walk and move fairly capably - even able to get up after falls. Now within the last year I have seen them learn Kung Fu, become really fast at getting up, become resistant to being knocked down by quite a lot of force, and now even doing tasks like those shown here.

Just imagine 2050 if the progress continues at this rate. I am both excited and really scared.

poly2it•16m ago
Great post! Now somebody with the connections just needs to make it happen. For event five, slippery when wet, you should definitely include drying your hands on a towel, as it serves an important hygienic function.
ubj•1m ago
Platinum Medal: Complete a gold medal task in the presence of multiple children between the ages of 3 and 8. The children must remain safe throughout (and after) the entire process.

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