There is a good choice of EVs from various manufacturers.
Tesla really makes charging about as seamless as can be. It integrates into the navigation system (the car will automatically add charging stops, pre-warm the battery, tell you how many spots are open, etc.), integrates the payment, etc.
I've rented a Tesla. The most annoying thing about it was the goofy unlock (tapping a key card at the right spot on the door pillar) but I'm very wary of renting any other EV and having to dick around with finding the right charge place, determining if it has the right connection, will it charge fast enough, can I just pay by card or do I need some stupid app, etc.
Other cars have all that, too, yeah. I got a 2025 Ioniq 5 and it does all that, and it's also not restricted to just one charging company's chargers. The payment integration stuff exists, but it requires support from the charging company obviously, and IMO that's kind of a mis-feature anyway, so I never bothered to set it up.
> can I just pay by card or do I need some stupid app
In my experience, almost all chargers just use a card. 100% of the ones I've used in regular gas stations on freeway exits just use a card. Once in a blue moon you run into a stupid app one, but it's usually an older charger that was installed in a city center in the early days of EV charging. The apps seem to be mostly disappearing, thank god. Ironically I'm pretty sure Tesla's chargers require a stupid app for non-Tesla cars, but I've never used one, so not certain.
> determining if it has the right connection
Yeah, the adapters are clunky. It's just gonna take time to phase out CCS. Hopefully that's a solved problem in 10 years as everyone switches over to NACS. I did use a native NACS non-Tesla charger with my native NACS non-Telsa car once on a recent road trip. The future is... almost here!
- Charging speeds that fall short of what's advertised
- A requirement to use an app for payment (even if no account setup is needed)
- Chargers that are out of service but not flagged as such in the system
Oh, I hadn't thought of it that way, but I bet you're right! I bet denser areas got chargers earlier, so they're stuck on the stupid-app-based model that was popular 5 years ago. Where I am in the upper midwest, the rollout has been happening only over the last couple years (e.g. several of the chargers I stopped at last month are not even on Google Maps streetview yet), so the chargers are in better shape and just have standard card readers now.
In Europe, Tesla use the European standard Type 2 (standardized as IEC 62196-2) charger. So that's not an issue either.
> correction: I thought Tesla still used their own charger in Europe.
The EV charger standard wars are over.
There are regions of Europe with less developed infrastructure, but the situation is identical for all car makers.
Tesla lead the market for quite a while, but lost their way trying to become a software company instead of perfecting manufacturing. They don't heave a lead anymore, and trust for their brand is tanking. Between tesla and a chineese EV, i trust both about equally now.
Parking and proximity LIDAR/sensors
3d camera view
CarPlay/Android Auto
Lack of tactile controls (even Tesla has admitted removing the stalk was a mistake)
The ability to exit your vehicle if there's a power system failure
etc
> 3d camera view
The illustrated overhead view is sufficient that I do not miss a 3D camera view.
>The ability to exit your vehicle if there's a power system failure
This is not true, at least in my 2024 Model Y.
Not having carplay/android auto sucks, but I haven’t missed it enough. And there are enough tactile controls, in my model at least, that it hasn’t been an issue.
All in all, I wouldn’t pay $60k for a Tesla, but sign me up @ $41k.
Is it just me, or does that seem backwards? If I purchased something with a specific feature, or promised future feature, and 5 years later it's still nowhere to be seen, I don't want a coupon for "my next purchase", why would I buy from the same place after they already lied to me before? The only acceptable solution would be to get back the extra money spent for that feature.
You are smarter than the repeat Tesla buyer.
Here's a handy compilation of Musk's self driving broken promises https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_predictions_for_autono...
You must be new here. Kidding aside, the only reason they would do anything would be if Tesla doesn't sufficiently kiss the king's ring, which they did to the tune of $250 million quite recently. More payments will likely be required, but it's a cost of doing "business" these days.
A "multi-billion-dollar iceberg" is literally referenced in the headline.
Like, yes, if Tesla pays back all HW2 and HW3 FSD buyers their purchase plus interest, they should be fine.
You too, as otherwise you surely would have at least skimmed the article before commenting :)
> As we recently reported, thousands of Tesla owners have now joined a class action lawsuit in Australia[1] over Tesla misleading customers with its self-driving promises.
> It adds to similar ongoing lawsuits in the US[2] and China[3] .
1 - https://electrek.co/2025/10/13/thousands-of-tesla-owners-joi...
2 - https://electrek.co/2025/08/19/tesla-loses-bid-to-kill-class...
3 - (https://electrek.co/2025/09/22/tesla-being-sued-china-over-n...)
There are, in fact, laws about this kind of thing
But of course, blaming the victim is much easier because it lets the person doing the blaming pretend they're morally and intellectually superior in some way.
You don't need any particularly deep due diligence to see that, in fact, not living under a rock is more than enough.
> There's multiple decades of fawning articles and reviews of Tesla to the point where the average person can't be blamed for assuming they're a reputable company.
There's multiple decades of articles highlighting, in various levels of detail, how exactly bad Tesla is and Teslas are. Checking for bad reviews and deciding how applicable they are to you in particular is part of rudimentary check
Sorry, but knowingly and deliberately buying a Tesla vehicle is entirely on the customer and they get in some sense even more than what they had ordered. Similarly, if you buy a ${brand-you-don't-like} you have no right to complain about ${common-problem}, because that's the state vehicles leave the factory.
From May 2025: https://cleantechnica.com/2025/05/05/us-consumers-dont-trust...
OP bought their Tesla in 2024, so customer sentiment was actually favourable to Tesla at that point.
In March 2024, brand loyalty was really high according to Experian: https://inspiramarketing.com/when-a-brand-becomes-its-own-wo...
In 2019, customer satisfaction was also high: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-customers-say-...
In 2020, they had an NPS of 97: https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/companies/tesla_motors
> Sorry, but knowingly and deliberately buying a Tesla vehicle is entirely on the customer and they get in some sense even more than what they had ordered.
Clearly, the customers were not knowingly and deliberately buying bad cars because the evidence available to the average person told them the exact opposite thing.
EDIT: Strikethrough below, it was a result of a bad search but the principle above still stands.
Hell, even on Hacker News, the bad news only seems to have started appearing 3 years ago, and I know for a fact your average consumer isn't browsing tech sites to form their opinion for their next car purchase.
a car is the largest purchase most people will make (after property)
people should do more due diligence on it than e.g. on a new phone purchase
I certainly looked into whether the company that built my house was prudent and known for not scamming people
Consumer protections are a very real thing in the EU, UK, Australia and elsewhere!
If you make promises about the features a product will deliver, then you are obligated to deliver those features.
If not, the consumer is entitled to a refund.
It seems fine to state one might get a free pony if it doesn't rain for 1000 days.
IANAL, but if it was "fine" that would still fall quite firmly under "gambling"
They can wrap as in many disclaimers as they want, if the law is clear that consumers had a presumption of delivery due to marketing promises which were unfulfilled they are on the hook for it.
It's why many American companies constantly complain about EU regulations, they empower consumers which is "bad for business™" since fraud becomes much harder to wrap in loopholes.
No, it doesn't seem fine at all. That's scam territory.
The other cars that also have OTA updates? (Rivian, Polestar, and more, plus quite a few that provide less-extensive OTA like Hyundai, VW, etc)
No I’d say it’s pretty clear
or something similar.
I can't imagine that they made it easy enough for someone to take them to court for non-delivery of FSD, which we knew wasn't going to be possible.
Still, comms that framed it like: "This software purchase upgrades your car with state-of-the-art autonomy capabilities from our AI team, as we approach full self-driving" would have been more honest, still exciting to consumers, and avoided over-promising.
Stonk is the product and is literally built on over-promising.
I thought it made a lot of sense to focus on a well functioning Level 2 System that they owned themselves. Make highway driving, start-stop traffic and such easy as possible. Make the car helpful and easy to use.
But then Tesla started focusing on making complex navigation and remote summening a feature when tons of basic stuff didn't work very well yet. For example, automated parking, 360 view, detection of features like shadows and such. Why not focus specifically on the actual dangrous problem looking around blind corners and installing a sensor suit that can help humans with the problem.
Promsing Full Self Driving with existing hardware and selling that when they had not proven that it could work was idioitc and I always felt like it was a liability. They should have been sued over this a while ago.
Initially Tesla messaging was save, nice software, fun to drive and green, and it then became half baked software, don't drive it and risky.
When it came out that Musk said they should build a cheaper next generation car, because Self-Driving would collapse the car market by 80% I knew the company had completely lost its way.
"we're general motors, but better" is not the same as "we'll have self driving taxis that make money to our customers while they sleep".
Musk's 2018 Pay Package had a lot of market cap-based targets[0].
[0] https://www.equilar.com/elon-musk-2018-tesla-pay-package-ana...
For me, the biggest signal was when Tesla was suddenly all-in on BTC, and promised to build their own full node.
It made no sense.
> Tesla is using only internal & open source software & operates Bitcoin nodes directly. ...
1. Up to that sudden 180, Musk had been a cryptocurrency skeptic. What changed?
2. It had nothing to do with Tesla's mission, in-fact it seemed to go against it. At best it was a distraction when there were real problems to deal with.
3. When reality caught up, Tesla reversed course.
I am not stating some grand thing here, this is just my recollection of events.
After they had bought the bitcoin, adding it as a payment option was a way to add hype to increase its value. They quickly found out that it's too volatile for payments to be practical, and the hype cycle was ending anyway and they sold half of their reserve.
> ... A friend sent me part of a BTC a few years, but I don’t know where it is.
If they offered this for sale for $8k including the FSD license for older hw3 teslas that don't have FSD it might offset some of the cost to bring up the people who already paid the $8k on HW3.
These days he's moved on to predicting 10 years for AGI and is, I shit you not, citing his 15 year track record of making accurate predictions (timestamped link below if you want have a laugh).
Yeah that actually sounds about right!
Autopilot's first director, Sterling Anderson, was fired because he was not willing to go along with the scam.
You could tell Andrej was going along with what hiss boss said, but didn't believe it himself.
Even worse? Nah, the judgement of someone in their 20s should be assumed poor.
There's a funny but very crude saying in Slovakia, which where he's from so he might know it, lol. I cannot write it here for obvious reasons but it's related to letting people do things to you for money ...
As others have pointed out, there were a lot of incentives ($$$) for Krapathy to behave like that during his tenure at Tesla.
To be fair, if I’m being paid $10 million/year, I’ll make any damn prediction my boss tells me to make
To be fair, it was a direct decision from Elon due to covid supply chain shortages of radar and ultrasonic sensors. Not from engineers (as is common at Elon companies)
But Andrej deserves some of the blame because he was too busy sucking on the $TSLA stock teat to say anything
It also doesn’t necessarily mean he was a yes man. Often in these situations people spell out their confidence levels plainly and directly to such execs and it just bounces off.
I’m also seeing below people suggesting he could have publicly voiced his concerns, but that probably wasn’t even a legal option for multiple reasons.
Tesla has shown time and time again to be hostile to its own customers in a variety of ways.
FTFA: "...thousands of Tesla owners have now joined a class action lawsuit in Australia over Tesla misleading customers with its self-driving promises. It adds to similar ongoing lawsuits in the US and China."
Lawsuits.
Give me a boring ass 90s control layout with the electric drive train and I'm much more interested. Make the car kind of ugly too. On purpose. I don't need a GPU farm inside my car. I'm not running a robotic taxi company. I just want to go get some groceries.
I've worked on cars long enough to realize I don't want a chip using a leading edge semiconductor node in my vehicle somewhere. I live in a pretty nasty climate. A car sitting in a Texas parking lot in July will get to temperatures that the engineers probably didn't think possible. There's always something that starts to break once you cross into that 150F temperature level. I want semiconductors that were engineered to run in the basement of hell 24/7/365. 28nm and thicker sizes. I don't want 3nm gates in my car. There's no way these chips would last 10 years.
AIUI, the car can run its cooling/AC system to keep itself cool, even when powered off. I'd imagine that this is actually a bigger concern for the battery's health and safety, not the chips. You're not supposed to let a battery get that hot.
As the others have pointed out all the major manufactures know the problems here, and ensure there isn't a problem.
Exactly. The minimalist interior is super unappealing to me. I want something that's not all based on one screen. It's not just bad from a usability perspective but also seems risky if there are any issues with the screen (climate controls are very important for visibility certain times of the year)
I would absolutely go for a 2002 electric Acura Integra though...
I think they're caught flat footed because here we are a decade later and the consumer's opinion still matters.
Most people are traveling during rush hour - there isn't much opportunity to share cars with them, and where there is it means cars traveling empty from the city to the suburbs in the morning. (and the opposite at 5pm).
When you own your own car you can "leave your golf clubs in the trunk in case a chance to play a round happens in the middle of the day". You can run errands over lunch. You store other things in the car that you don't need everyday. None of these are a big deal (many people take transit and thus cannot do that), but it is enough that when the economics are not a clear win you will want to own a car.
I will bet that none of the engineers on the automation team over the age of 35 thought that. Only the young & naive or non-technical people would have believed that.
https://images.ctfassets.net/20dhmw20vttc/3FXvexNHHbtaijk1Ur...
Worried about infotainment and AI processors? It doesn't even have a radio. See those things on the door cards by your knees? They interface with an advanced window regulator and associated torque-sensing motion control system that uses evaporative liquid cooling to prevent failure due to overheating.
You could buy three for the price of a Tesla.
Except you could actually buy a Tesla today, which is not something you can do for a Slate. Also they don't even have expected delivery dates or official pricing yet, so who knows when they will be available or what the actual price will be.
I would love for Slate to become a thing, but at this point it looks like vaporware.
There were actually many companies which tried small basic "urban" electric vehicles. You never heard of them.
Customers will not care about the cars people on here want. Customers want highly integrated software. Law makers are also demanding increasing software complexity.
>A car sitting in a Texas parking lot in July will get to temperatures that the engineers probably didn't think possible.
Toyota, Ford and VW have proving grounds in Arizona, because engineers know that cars get very hot. This is part of standard vehicles testing.
It isn't hard to make crank cars, but it will cost you a million dollars (likely 10, but lets go with 1 million) to build all the needed jigs to make them, so if there are only 1000 people who buy crank windows that means the cost of cranks is $1000/car. You can skip the jigs, but now the cost to manually make the cranks is $400/car, meanwhile because everyone else wants electric windows the cost per car is about $100. Those costs are why an option-free car would have to cost more than a luxury model.
To build an EV you have to spend $10-$20k on the battery pack that goes into it. They're getting cheaper, but that is a gradual process.
So your Toyota Camry / Honda Accord EV competitor is going to need to be priced starting at $40k to have a chance of breaking even.
How do you get people to stomach $40k for a base Honda Accord but Electric? You add things that cost very little but make the car feel more premium. Power seats, big screens, LED interior lights, glass roof, a processor that can play video games, cameras and autonomy features, etc. don't cost that much in the big scheme of things. Some of them, like screens instead of physical controls, might even save money in production and assembly costs.
So you add ~$3k worth of "premium" features to the car, price it at $45k, and now the buyer feels like they are getting something worth the money.
Tesla stock (P/E over 250) is priced as if Telsa is the largest auto manufacturer, the biggest robotaxi company, the dominant robot producer and the leading AI service provider.
Meanhile; back in reality, none of this is even close to being true.
Logic simply cannot explain it --- so the fallback is a conspiracy of some sort. One that Wall Street must have a stake in.
... Wait, is your contention that every time the markets price something incorrectly, there must be a conspiracy? Tesla is a meme stock, one of hundreds, albeit the biggest. There's no need for a conspiracy; the markets are just actually not all that great at pricing, especially where there's significant retail involvement.
Nothing about the valuation makes any sense and it hasn't for years. Tesla is no longer a startup. Market performance history is readily available from which one should be able to make rational judgments.
Tesla only has about 10% of world wide *EV* sales. Yet it's market cap exceeds all major auto manufacturers *combined*.
As you point out, it's the scale and magnitude of the disconnect from reality maintained over a long period of time that puts Tesla in a league of it's own.
I don't think you have to go to conspiracy theories to explain it. The fact that Wall Street has always been highly suggestible, fad-driven, and has a strong herd mentality is sufficient. Combine that with sunk cost fallacies and this is exactly the sort of behavior I'd expect.
Sorry, sunk cost fallacies can't explain why a majority of Wall Street analysts maintain a *buy* rating on a company with a PE of over 250 and a *declining* global market share.
We live in bizarre times. The older I get, the more I wonder why I try do things "properly" and honestly. I guess it's just a preference.
But as for Musk, I always thought something was absolutely not right with him. I thought of him as a pandering populist with feudalistic tendencies. And I lost what little credibility with him back in 2015/6 with him screaming from Twitter about the flooded cave rescuer was a pedophile.
I also remember him launching the first starlink SATs, without any permission. Flooded the LEO with thousands of space junk. I'm just waiting for a Kessler syndrome event.
And come to find out, he also defrauded customers on FSD on teslas.
Basically, stay as far away as you can from anything musk. It will come toppling down. And when it does, all the devices will come with it. (Think of when IoT companies shut down, and equipment is now landfill)
That will thankfully never happen. LEO is a range, and Star-link is near the bottom of that range. Their satellites have a 5 year lifetime, because that's when the fuel needed to re-adjust their orbit runs out, and atmospheric drag pulls them down. A Kessler syndrome event in that orbital plane would resolve itself within a decade at most.
> Pity that BYD is banned in this country
BYD makes unreliably good EV's for the price. From a consumer perceptive it's a big loss. But i understand why we restrict their import if we want to keep that industry around ourselves (In particular lithium battery production). There is some truth to china using it as a leverage. That being said... the approach Biden and especially Trump took to supposedly help the local industry is ... a bit crude.
It's a car, not an early access videogame, where you're partially funding future development.
HW3 owner. Car drives really good on FSD as for 5 years old car , it’s not even close to anything that was on the market , I still receive updates .
Any short trip or long trip when I’m lazy I simply turn it on, and it works perfect 99% of the time. Both highway and local roads.
When I’m in the gym and it’s raining or snowing , I press the button and car actually comes to me. It used to be broken now they fixed it. It recently also start to park itself after fsd route is over. How awesome is that for a 5 years old car ??
Why should I be upset ? Do I want free hardware ? Sure . Is $7k I paid a fair price ? Yeah . go check modern offering from any other company . They charge you comparable price for way less functionality. In the world where bmw tries to charge you every month for heated seats , I think it’s a fair price.
Oh yeah , I live in New York , I use fsd almost daily for 5+ years . In this very busy setup 0 accidents . Which is rare even for an experienced human driver.
You shouldn't. If you're happy, enjoy it and move on. Others being upset doesn't negate your right to be happy. Just as your experience doesn't negate someone being upset about feeling they were lied to.
> I live in New York , I use fsd almost daily for 5+ years . In this very busy setup 0 accidents . Which is rare even for an experienced human driver
FSD was sold as Waymo. Unsupervised. Tesla is unable to match that capability on its newest hardware so far.
Tesla knows the current FSD isn't fine; if it was, they wouldn't be upgrading the hardware to handle bigger models. So there's nothing surprising about expecting Tesla to deliver the same hardware to people who already paid them for the product they're still trying to deliver. If you're satisfied not receiving the full product you paid for, that's fine, of course. Heck, you're free to write Tesla a donation check. But Tesla should deliver the product (or a refund) to those who aren't.
Are you sure it's not a hardware or calibration issue? Disclaimer: I don't own a Tesla, but I'm just pointing out that it could also be a hardware issue.
Tesla has gained part of their stock valuation and customer base over the years by promising Level 5 FSD. As in, you can sleep while the car drives you to work, or the car can go make money for you as a Robotaxi on the Tesla Network when you aren't using it.
They haven't delivered those things which they have been promising to customers since 2016.
BYD's comparable offering is generally free/included in the car's price.
Separately, I can't believe we are still discussing a product called "Full Self Driving" that is not "full self driving." Paying big companies to lie to us is not a recipe for building a better world.
I think this is the target market. Delusional people.
Tesla has shipped 8 million cars total. Maybe 70% of them (including mine) have the HW3 computer that the article claims won't do FSD. Of those, maybe 10% (I'm one) actually purchased the FSD product[1]. So figure like 500k cars actually affected.
If the cost to Tesla of a HW4 upgrade is less than $2000 (it's likely *much* less, this isn't particularly fancy hardware and it requires no sensor or other upgrades, it's just a board swap), then we're looking at "sub-billion" and not "multi-billion-dollar iceberg".
It's a $1.4T company. If everything falls out like Electrek[2] expects, it might rise to "Really very notable recall". Hardly a Titanic collision.
[1] As opposed to renting it, for which there would be no remedy. You can't sue for a rental product that you claim doesn't do what you wanted. If you didn't want it, why did you pay for it? At most you get the first month's fee refunded.
[2] Electrek has been expecting Tesla to fail for like seven years now.
Tesla is now a robotics company, and their car business is now a rounding error of their future potential. Their robotaxi business is also not really important either.
See Tesla will now be building fully autonomous robots. This will allow Elon Stark to lock on to multi-trillion dollar revenues that are just around the corner once they dial in these last few bolts of the Optimus bot. Forget everything about the cars and the taxi. Those are outdated and irrelvant. Fill you head with visions of Tesla bots being everywhere all the time doing everything for you. By the end of 2026 there will be 100 billion Tesla bots sold. So the stock is grossly undervalued. Go buy the stock please god buy the stock how the fuck is tesla ever going to fill the boots of a $1.5T company with collapsing revenue and the veil of empty promises slipping off.
Someone•2h ago
While this might sound like a lot”
It would add up to a lot of money for Tesla, but for customers? Some of these people paid $15.000 years ago for something that hasn’t been delivered, and now, they would be able to get $10,000 ‘back’, only if they commit to spending way more again, in the hope to eventually get what they bought years ago, or, more likely, in the hope of eventually being able to subscribe to get the features they already paid for years ago.
CaptainOfCoit•2h ago
cjrp•2h ago
boringg•1h ago
LightBug1•1h ago
Why else would you put up with this nonsense?
If nothing else, Musk is a Svengali extraordinaire ...
cjrp•1h ago
boringg•1h ago
Would they buy them again? Probably not but thats because of politics.
chronci739•1h ago
That’s the article’s point.
Politics, FSD overpromises, Elon, whatever the reason.
Tesla deliveries are down and people aren’t coming back.
ToucanLoucan•55m ago
I can't fathom wanting a Tesla unless the politics are not merely a turn-off for you, but you want to support them directly.
CaptainOfCoit•59m ago
orochimaaru•1h ago
If the “fsd” wording is present in the purchase agreement, then Tesla owners have a class action lawsuit.
estearum•1h ago
If they said "$x gets you y", ran ads saying "$x gets you y", held press conferences saying "$x gets you y", then gave you an invoice showing you pay "$x for y", a backing contract saying "$x does not get you y" will not stand up in court.
So in addition to not being legally okay, it's obviously not "ethically questionable." Taking people's money and not delivering value you promised to them in exchange is bad.
altcognito•1h ago
bluGill•55m ago
bluGill•56m ago
When reading the above, think: the opposition lawyers have incentive to present the case that way. Judges rarely stop them. Juries tend to accept the above presentation. Of course the other side has lawyers that will try to pick apart that argument. It is anyone's guess what the jury (and thus court) will decide.
There are many different legal systems in the world. The above is a US perspective. I cannot comment on other countries, just know that each is different. Even if Tesla wins in court in the US, they can still lose a lot of money in other countries that work different.
JumpCrisscross•45m ago
Under U.S. federal law, perhaps.
That's where "Tesla’s current FSD expansion in international markets" gains salience. I doubt courts in "China and now Australia and New Zealand," or states with strong lemon laws [1], will let a manufacturer off the hook on a just-kidding clause.
[1] https://www.autosafety.org/in-new-lemonlaw-rankings-illinois...
mrtksn•1h ago
In recent years the leader of a cult in Turkey known for being filthy rich died and when cult split the new factions summoned the believers to re-do their inauguration ritual, which involves money collecting, since the old one expired within the death of the leader. And they went and did that, because although its not the members that are rich they still benefit from being in the community and the business connections.
Tesla has a similar thing, they are on a mission and many make money from being part of the community as they collect referrals, make content and sell accessories. Even if not doing any of that they ysually have Tesla shares and even if that’s not the case they want to keep the value of their vehicle high. Also in comes with the emotional baggage of having told everyone how their tesla drives autonomously etc.
IAmBroom•48m ago
stronglikedan•32m ago
how ironic
gipp•47m ago
mrtksn•36m ago
Most people just don’t want new troubles in their lives, its juts money long gone.
drcongo•54m ago
NickC25•43m ago
Sounds like fraud.
Why is Musk allowed to be worth half a trillion dollars again? The guy can't help himself but lie and make deliberately misleading half-truth (at best) statements in investor meetings and presentations. Textbook fraud.
An ethical steward of capital he is not. We've gone through 4+ US presidential administrations with him as the CEO, and not once has he been effectively taken to task let alone held accountable for his bullshit.
code_for_monkey•37m ago
danans•28m ago
Perhaps you just answered your own question. But are you sure he's the only big tech CEO who does it, or does he just do it the best?
immibis•17m ago
sporkxrocket•9m ago
slowmovintarget•3m ago