It's nice to see that M3 and later is coming, but as a Linux person, it's not necessarily a bad thing to be a bit behind the latest hardware. After all, many of us still use ancient Thinkpads running Linux, and prefer to buy used hardware for a better cost (M1/M2 hardware can be had much cheaper now).
There are a 1st gen M1 Air wedge and M1 Macbook Pro 14 in my home that belong to other family members. I look forward to running Asahi on them when the users eventually upgrade.
It's getting a bit old, so it would be nice to replace it with a new MacBook Pro in not too long. But honestly, losing Linux support would be pretty devastating.
Docker and virtualization just isn't the same. There's lots of interesting stuff you can do with your hardware in Linux, there's for example Linux-specific software which puts the WiFi card in promiscuous mode and does useful stuff with that. That sort of software doesn't work virtualized. And I have all sorts of issues with loopback devices in Docker in macOS; 'losetup --partscan' doesn't seem to work at all, even in a privileged container. For these sorts of things, having a genuine bare-metal Linux install I can reboot into is invaluable.
I wish things had turned out otherwise, and we didn't have to choose between buying a Mac without Linux support and buying a 3-5 year old Mac with Linux support. And I expect that as time goes on, Asahi will just fall further and further behind.
I'm not really sure what to do. Maybe this MacBook Pro was just a one-off, and I have to go back to buying Windows laptops and putting Linux on them. But they just aren't as nice.
people do it all the time for gaming laptops etc when probably 99% of their usage is at the same desk
In reality, far more than 1% of my computer use happens away from the desk where my desktop is located. I'm guessing I'm not alone in that.
Then there are non-development tasks, like 3D modelling or video editing.
Remote desktop is a kind of solution, but it's extremely sub par. Latency is not good unless you're on the same LAN in my experience.
My Asus laptop with 32 GB of RAM is 4 years old, but resumes from the encrypted swap partition in under 5 seconds, which is fast enough for me.
I'm not sure of the status on other distro kernels but allowing it would be a significant bypass of Secure Boot's purpose.
Needing a way to securely verify the hibernate image is ALSO a problem, and one of the reasons Asahi haven't focused on suspend-to-disk, but it's not the first-order issue.
You mentioned Docker and virtualisation and this tool has addressed most of my pain points with those, that's it.
And yeah each iteration of the M chip has gotten better, but even a standard M1 is a very capable chip these days.
My work laptop is a 2021 MBpro. M1, 16gb ram, nothing special. Still very capable machine for video editing. One of my department livestream machines is an M4 Mac mini, 16gb ram as well. I regularly juggle between the two and the only two big things I notice are 1) multi screen support (M1 can only push to one external which is annoying), and 2) noticeably better but not wildly improved render times (admittedly this difference is a bit more stark when you’re doing heavy lifts like resolve fusion comps and intense coloring/masking). On any given day they are basically the same machine to me.
Suffice to say if you’re running on an M3 right now and are feeling the need for an M5, unless you’re doing really bleeding edge heavy duty work, I just don’t think there’s that much you’re missing out on. So Linux on an M3 to me is great.
The market really isn’t limited to “buying a windows laptop and putting Linux onto it” anymore.
Lots of OEMs support Linux as a first-class citizen.
For me personally I’m enjoying my Framework laptop a lot. Is it the same kind of hardware polish as a Mac? No, of course not. But owning a Framework is like owning an Apple in the sense that the community has fully integrated Framework systems into the ecosystem.
One command installs Framework fan profiles into Bazzite Linux. One command inside Linux updates UEFI and device firmware, try doing that with Windows!
Is the battery like half as good as a MacBook Pro? Yeah. It sucks a little bit. But also, owning/carrying around a $50 portable battery isn’t such a bad thing, and the weight difference is a wash since the 13” Framework is lighter than the 14” MacBook Pro.
And on the plus side, I paid a less than MacBook Air money for a system with 2TB of storage and 32GB of RAM (DIY previous AMD generation model), fully upgradable, fully repairable, with customizable I/O.
A new battery is DIY, $60, not $250 with a wait for service. Replacing a broken screen is DIY $200, not $700 and a visit to the Apple service depot.
One day, I’m sure framework will be selling an ARM mainboard with similar battery life compared to a Mac, and when that day comes I don’t even have to buy a whole new system to get one.
And on top of all that, it’s still a nice laptop that feels premium even though it’s assembled DIY. I’d say the keyboard is better than a Mac keyboard (though the trackpad isn’t).
But also, there are other OEMs where running Linux is a joy and a breeze, along with being fully supported and even sold preinstalled. System76, Lenovo, Dell, and HP all have Linux-supported configurations.
Framework is great, but it doesn't even come close in terms of quality. Specs are one thing, how the product looks, feels, attention to detail, and most importantly: long term viability! even if you take away everything else, macbooks are though. I've used a couple for over a decade with no hardware repair (except when I broke a screen). Most mac users have similar experiences, so it's not survivor's bias.
If all you care about is specs or open hardware, obviously Apple hardware is not for you.
I don't want framework or system76 to move to ARM, a lot of people like me still _need_ x86 hardware.
There isn't a single machine out there that's even moderately close in terms of build quality. Either at the dollar cost for an entry series MacBook Pro or Air with 36GB (38?) memory.
I don't think there's an OEM Linux or Windows laptop with Linux as a first class citizen laptop out there even moderately close for value, performance and build quality.
Shit I'm not sure if there's even one out there if you spent considerably more than on a MacBook. MacBook Pro's are pretty good value now.
Apple used the whole "economy of scale" effect to invest in specialized tooling/machining that would be too costly to recover the ROI for other OEMs. Keep in mind that consumer laptop makers to the most part don't make a profit (or have a low profit margin - last i checked at least) on laptops and printers. No one else has made the economics of using quality material, top of the line design, and specialized machining/tooling work like Apple.
But my favorite machine of late is a tiny ultra portable with a Ryzen AI 9 chip with 64Gb RAM, it's an x86 that's competitive with the new ARM stuff on power efficiency
even the things you mention in your post paint a picture of a difference that for a lot of usage patterns is much more significant than just the last 10%
I have been looking at the Lenovos though.
I would understand if it was Lunduke or XLibre folk, but that's a complete non-issue.
Just get a Framework, they're Macs for Linux.
> When documenting the security model, Apple use the example of an XNU kernel developer wishing to test their changes on a second macOS installation. It is apparent however that the platform security model was engineered to allow third party operating systems to coexist with macOS in a way that does not compromise any of Apple's security guarantees for macOS itself. *Rumours circulating that Apple are actively hostile towards efforts such as Asahi, or that their security must be bypassed or jailbroken to run untrusted code are unfounded and false*. In fact, Apple have expended effort and time on _improving_ their security tooling in ways that _only_ improve the execution of non-macOS binaries.
Regarding Framework laptops being "Macs for Linux," Frameworks are fantastic in their own way but they don't come anywhere near the build quality (or battery life) you get with a Mac.
We will see if they continue that attitude.
Is they possible with the built in WiFi chipsets?
Why would you think that? They're working hard on upstreaming all patches ATM, adding new hardware support will be much easier afterwards.
It’s a massive task keeping the large number of patches going, while simultaneously trying to land them in the mainline kernel.
Its painful to watch people choose Apple over a user respecting company that supports Linux well
Then again, the hardware that those companies release isn't quite as good as Apple Silicon, IMHO.
It might also encourage more laptop makers to ship machines with first‑class Linux support so people aren't forced to pick between hardware they like and the OS they want. And for folks who don't need a Mac specifically, the growing ecosystem of non‑Apple ARM laptops could offer a smoother path than shoe‑horning Linux onto proprietary silicon.
Apple made it impossible to use iMessage on a Hackintosh without spoofing another Mac that's not in use. That pushed A LOT of people away from using a Hackintosh.
The second thing is abandoning x86. Apple has already announced that macOS 26 is the last release to support their Intel machines. That means that next year, there will be no way to run the latest macOS on any Intel machine. That's basically the end date for all these projects, as the Hackintosh crowd has always been about running the latest version of the OS. They're not interested in running System 7!
Why do you think that? The upstreaming efforts are more fruitful than ever.
While it'd be nice to be able to run Linux on my M2 MBP someday when Apple stops supporting it, ultimately, the reason many (but not all) power users buy Macs is because they want the UNIX/UNIX-like work done for them and for it to run on fast hardware. If I want something more customizable, I'm barking up the wrong hardware tree.
Does that solve the question of "what do I do with this Mac that no longer gets updates?"? No, but most people either list theirs for sale to someone who isn't as bothered by that, or trade it in at an Apple Store for credit towards the new shiny.
I do most of my work over SSH on big metal machines, maybe that's the disconnect? But seriously, there are few things in the world that matter less to me than how fast my laptop is. I did some real work a few weeks ago on a ten-year-old Celeron POS and it didn't bother me at all.
einsteinx2•2h ago
Though in the plus side, even the base M1 is so capable that even if they stopped there it would be useful for years to come.
ForHackernews•1h ago
einsteinx2•1h ago
Also as a minor counter point, the only reason Asahi is even possible is that Apple explicitly designed in support for booting other operating systems into the M-series chips. They certainly could have locked them down just like they did the iPhone and iPad, but they didn't. That was a conscious choice according to the Asahi folks.
So while they may not be sharing technical documentation/drivers or otherwise making it easy on the Asahi devs, even the famously "walled garden" Apple seems to have explicitly not restricted their new line of computers in the way you're describing.
transpute•1h ago
Thank Xeno, who has since been creating open-source training on low-level firmware security at https://p.ost2.fyi, a new iteration of open training material published ~15 years ago at https://opensecuritytraining.info before joining Apple.
https://archive.fosdem.org/2022/schedule/speaker/xeno_kovah/
bluedino•52m ago
My M1 Air is 4 years old and it's by far the most capable 4 year old Mac I've owned.