Commands like a for appending text are unchanged from the teletype era, which are so old that most people don't know computers used printers as an output before screens!
It's pushed me to learn about projects that try to move beyond acumulated baggage and rethink principles.
I've been taking a look at Nushell for example, and even though I was initially skeptical of Helix because of how universal vim commands are, perhaps it's time to take a deeper look.
We'll have a major release announcement any day now, but we're looking hard at the accumulated baggage and we think we can lose a lot of that weight while giving people a level of power they never had before
I don't find these commands a historical baggage. They're quite useful even today. Also commands like A, I, P, O in vim are super-useful when recording macros (macros are easier to record and more robust because they less depend on the context where they would be run).
Anyway nvim and helix are both amazing and terminal editors are both cool and sexy, so why wouldn’t you? ;)
As a thank you, I'll leave you with the way I learned to search/replace, just to give you a slightly different flavour: asterisk, cgn ([c]hange [g]o [n]ext), type replaced, then . (period, to repeat) until I'm done.
The only other real GUI contender I've seen is Jetbrains's IDEs (the free educational plan is great) but having seperate IDEs for different languages gets a bit annoying if you have multi language projects (e.g. a Rust backend hosting a Typescript frontend)
It's quite impressive how everything just works and how easy onboarding is.
I miss the days when we had militant, but more entertaining zealots like Stallman. Whatever else you can say about his antics, Stallman was comitted. And that craziness wrapped back around to being entertaining.
Now we just get whatever this is - basically the equivalent of someone declaring they're going to try being vegetarian by not eating the tips of chicken wings anymore. Like dude, fork Vscode and start hosting it on your own custom vc system that was hacked together as a side project.
Where's the fire and passion behind the resistance?
The working class are exhausted and a paycheck away from losing their homes. People don't have the time or energy to fight back for privacy/sovereignty/whatever inconveniences those in power. Stallman grew up privileged, went to the best universities at the best possible time and worked in academia. He had plenty of time to devote to political causes.
Let's face it-- the passion and resistance is nearly dead. There's a few of us left. Say what you want about Stallman, at least the man stood for something.
I've tried to get into neovim a few times. It's fine for basic editing and I use it a bit when I am ssh'd into a box without a graphical environment, or I'm just not bothered booting up a full IDE. But the UI still feels less intuitive to me than JetBrains, and by the time I've installed and configured the various plugins that should give me anything approaching JetBrains' functionality the whole setup feels very fragile, like it could break at any moment and I wouldn't easily be able to fix it. In the regard, Helix having more stuff OOTB feels like it could be a definite improvement.
At the moment I'm on VS Code again because Sublime Text isn't keeping up to date anymore (its ecosystem has mostly been dormant since 2014 or 2016) and Zed is still fully in development and doesn't have some of the extensions and tools that I sometimes use in VS Code.
If I were to go back to e.g. Java I'd probably use IntelliJ again, but then, the enterprise I work for would be shelling out for it.
I never had much problem with feeling VSCode was slow (outside of those lockups) but Zed surprised me by feeling actively fast. I do miss several extensions a lot though!
well said. this is exactly how I felt too. when other folks ask why zed, and i tell them it's fast - i couldn't quite capture that feeling but this comment nails it.
Zed actively feels faster than VSCode or equivalent editors; but once you get comfortable with Zed's speed, it's hard to go back.
I don't know if it's just my hardware or some software issue, but I was very disappointed.
I've never experienced sluggishness, but, I also keep track of how much memory it's using and ensure I don't run low. It's clearly a huge resource hog, but I'm also glad for that. It's using all of my computers resources to analyze the code in amazing ways which help me develop fast. Emacs, Sublime Text, and others were all about typing speed. Fast development goes far beyond just typing speed.
I use quite a few of their IDEs for various use cases (Java, .NET, Python, Go, JS projects and some DB interaction) and ended up just buying their ultimate pack. For individual use, it was like 360 EUR with VAT per year that went down to 216 EUR by year 3 of staying subscribed. Just so I wouldn't have to deal with any artificial limitations and could use all of their tools instead of some Frankenstein setup where I have to install all sorts of plugins into IntelliJ.
Their AI tools are also pretty decent (Junie was lovely to use, despite the rate limits), the idea behind the free Fleet editor was also cool but it kinda sucked in comparison to VSC. That said, if the JetBrains IDEs ever get enshittified, I'm throwing them into the trash and moving over to just VSC with a frickload of plugins and AI slop coding to make up for the lack of comparably good refactoring tools and such. Until then, I'm okay with paying for their software, same as I pay for MobaXTerm and support FreeFileSync etc., I guess my point is that I largely view them as a commercial product and wouldn't count on that much being or remaining free.
LSP is much more practical, but much less than I hoped for.
I just hate the idea of opening two IDEs because my work repo is in Go and Python. Also, the IDEs are not getting faster, only slower.
Jupyter is harder, I haven't found anything that gets me there yet.
The helix situation is still miles better for up and running asap compared to dancing with files/lua on lazyvim. Just having to refer to docs to install a plugin, writing sane remaps etc eats up time. If you really just speedrun everything under an hour good for you. But for the rest, a lsp is a one package manager install away (even on windows scoop seems to have become the de facto), editing a toml is much easier than fiddling with the lua api/vimscript "just" to set some variables.
(Not a helix user though I have tried both vim/nvim/helix)
The only problem for me was the keybindings work good unless my vim instincts kick in where I become slow. The other one was lack of plugins.
Use Mason to install the LSP server (just type :LspInstall or use the Mason UI) that will then activate automatically and reuse an existing configuration from lsp-config.
No tinkering or configuration needed.
I use LazyVim and it works pretty well. But whenever I want to change some small aspect of its behaviour it takes a while to get familiar with the right part of the configuration. And if an update were to break it tomorrow I'm not sure how easily I could put it back together.
https://helix-nikita-revencos-projects.vercel.app/start-here...
It was a learning curve issue for me, not a functionality issue. I'll probably return at some point (like when the EOY season becomes slower and I have more time to explore) but for now I'm back to cruising in VS Code.
Yesterday I was trying to switch my Astro VIM setup from using black to using "ruff format", which lead me down the path of installing astro from scratch, re-configuring it for my "must haves", and then trying again to get my formatter switched to ruff. I reinstalled because the docs looked like there may be a new way to do it since my last install 6 months ago.
The documentation for Astro VIM is really incomplete. Claude was fairly helpful, maybe Claude Code would be better, since it'll have the context of my exact configs rather than Claude giving me 3-5 options for making the change.
I've got a helix cheatsheet on my desk that I had Claude make me ~3 months ago. I started my work journal in helix this morning, but the install on that system must be broken because I couldn't even exit insert mode, pressing ESC did nothing.
I'm at the point where I think vim is a great library for building a text editor, but nobody has built a great text editor in it yet. I really liked LunarVim but that got abandoned for reasons I don't fully understand.
I went from VS Code to NeoVim and can’t be happier. Not saying that VS Code isn‘t a good product. It‘s actually everything you need in an editor/ ide. But it’s way too heavy for my taste. I made the transition to the terminal for my dev workflow. WezTerm, mux and tmux, neovim as editor, lazygit as git client, yazi for file navigation: I absolutely love how streamlined my process is.
Wonderful times with lots of options.
I went to Zed for this reason.
Apparently DAP protocol support has been merged - but I find the documentation lacking, and afaik for typescript/javascript it won't work out of the box, as helix needs a pointers to the dap server (and that can't simply be in PATH)?
How are everyone debugging with Helix?
I still use VSCode when navigating complex codebase changes, just because of the visual file tree. I hope to fully switch over soon.
This doesn't make sense: if you were truly lazy, you wouldn't spend any effort learning a more complicated app, you'd simply not switch!
> with a few knobs for minor preferences. I am subject to choice paralysis, so making me configure an editor before I’ve even started editing is the best way to tank my productivity.
There are a couple of hundreds of options https://docs.helix-editor.com/editor.html and even more hundreds of keybinds https://docs.helix-editor.com/keymap.html to reconfigure, so you can knob yourself to death with Helix just like with any other configurable app. And the way out is the same as with vim - just pick someone else who has done it and has published the results before dying and use those!
I think the crucial thing here is that most people don't do it, because it works out of the box. You can change any of the keybindings and any of a few hundred settings if you want, but the defaults are good, so you don't have to. My helix config sets the theme and soft-wrap and that's about it.
In general, I agree that good defaults is the way to go, and vim is worse here (except for the theme, helix's default is bad), though again, the alternative isn't a many knobs paralysis, but a better starting set.
> might try a new option setting
What about trying to change all the keybinds to suit your emacs/vim needs? What about tweaking hundreds of colors in editor theme?
> in Helix you cannot write code or install someone else's code to modify your editor.
But this is planned, so if only code tickles your fancy, then yeah, you'd have to wait for the full rabbit hole customization potential to appear.
I am joking of course. Helix is fantastic and I think it eventually will get a state-of-the-art safe plugin system. After a couple of attempts I made the permanent switch from neovim two moths ago. I don't think I'll ever go back.
"I don't like vim as you need to install plugins to make it work"
"helix is a dumb editor, so it needs a language server."
Then they go and list the number of plugins they install. This seems to argue against what their main point
I now use VScode most of the time, however to me its a fancy VIM variant, because I'm so used to vim bindings.
I can and do use raw vim, although not for any serious programming recently. If I were then I'd have syntastic installed and possibly some more advanced linter.
However! If it makes them happy, then this is a good thing™.
Helix is a fantastic terminal-based editor. I would rather type in mittens than use a GUI editor. If that resonates with you, maybe give it a try. If you love your GUI, I don't think Helix will be the thing that changes your mind.
By that measure, isn't eg VS code also a "stupid" editor?
I tried Helix for several months. I then tried VS Code for the first time and only lasted about eight weeks. I gave Zed a try but gave up because it required a GPU which my machine didn't have and there's a login button on the editor which I found ridiculous (I don't use GitHub, how am I supposed to log in). I then tried RustRover / JetBrains products for a few weeks.
Ultimately, I ended up back in Vim8 (default install on my LTS distro). I like to think I've given each editor a fair try.
1. Vanilla vim is just there and works. You can use it with or without plugins and it works great. The built in :make / compiler options are a viable alternative to lsp / linter plugins. Also, it has ctags support built in which works for dozens of languages. You can also use a linter/lsp plugin by adding to your optional plugins and simply do `:packadd vim-lsp` or whatever the plugin name is whenever you want to use it. It's literally a text editor, with optional plugins.
2. NeoVim is "plugin hell". It's an editor that people use as an IDE and require a dozen plugins to do so. You could use it like Vim (see above), but no one does that. I don't have any issues with NeoVim as a tool, but the community and "influencers" are annoying to me.
3. Helix was a nice IDE out of the box, no plugins required. Ultimately I found the different key mappings to be annoying for me (15+ years of vim muscle memory). It's not a bad alternative if you want the "IDE experience" in the terminal. It's certainly better than stringing 24 plugins together and hoping none of them are ever compromised.
I won't discuss the other editors or IDES. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings :)
jsmailes•11h ago
It's the same problem with keyboard layouts: I'm sure I could learn to be slightly faster on dvorak/colemak, but nothing beats the convenience of always having guaranteed access to qwerty, everywhere I go.
scop•11h ago
warmwaffles•10h ago
There's missing features I really want, but they'll be added eventually. Git blame in line, some scripting support, better find-replace across a project and not just the opened buffers.
Just give it a try for a week or two straight. No using your other editors. Cold turkey. You'll be surprised at how quickly you'll relearn. It took me about three weeks using it full time to get decent. The first day or so were brutal.
lordleft•11h ago
dkdcio•10h ago
the other thing for me is lack of the GitHub Copilot extension. I am far too used to having tab-complete. there's some effort for Helix extensions to handle this but it's not close to on-par last time I checked
airstrike•8h ago
https://github.com/usagi-flow/evil-helix
cycomanic•5h ago
CorrectHorseBat•6h ago
dkdcio•6h ago
thendrill•11h ago
kelvinjps10•10h ago
evolighting•10h ago
But more importantly,it reflects the reality that although they bear some resemblance, the design logic of vi and Helix are actually fundamentally different.
icen•10h ago
tux1968•9h ago
dugidugout•8h ago
eviks•7h ago
shpongled•8h ago
lawn•11h ago
It's just a matter of practice, which admittedly might be too much effort for little gain. I still use Neovim and I don't see myself ever using Helix or Kakoune.
noir_lord•10h ago
lycopodiopsida•10h ago
Colemak/Dvorak is not about speed, but about comfort and avoiding RSI (though I would place the actual layout somewhere far down on the list, a proper ergonomic KB is top priority). Also, in my ~8 years on Colemak lack of access to it was a problem exactly 0 times. I don't type books on other people's computers, and if I would, typing blind on a keyboard I am not used to is anyway a hopeless endeavor.
boterock•10h ago
stronglikedan•9h ago
I tried all manner of keyboards over the years, and in my opinion, none of them solve RSI. I'm now back to a standard qwerty for the same reason as OP - they're just immediately available everywhere.
What did help my no-longer-existent RSI was simple - I don't rest my wrists any more like I was taught in high school typing class (by an instructor that would whack our hands with a ruler if we were caught resting our wrists).
I do have a bit of De Quervain's Tenosynovitis from the mouse, but I'm solving that with one of those hand stretchers that hook to your fingers and provide resistance when opening the hand. 100 reps a day (25x4) and I haven't really felt it in weeks. Turns out that working out the muscles opposite to the ones you think is the key (therapy putty did nothing).
lycopodiopsida•9h ago
Going to a doctor should also be high on the list, but unfortunately, I have yet to see one willing to do a proper diagnosis. My experience there is more than mixed, so you have to experiment yourself.
dugidugout•8h ago
FWIW, all a doctor did for me was affirm my self-diagnosis and life-style adjustments. Surgery in this area looked quite grim on my last purview so I am not sure a doctor would serve much for most in this regard.
milch•9h ago
After switching to a split keyboard my pain went away, and I think I learned that at least for me it was caused by exactly these symbols - on both US QWERTY and Colemak when you constantly type [];:{}| and so on, your pinky has to reach over to do it. At least for me that meant contorting my hand a bit to reach over. On my split keyboard all the symbols are behind a layer on the home row, and I barely use the pinky for anything, which fixes the issue. I also learned to hover while switching to the split keyboard, but that did nothing for my wrist pain when going back to my laptop's built in keyboard - after a full day of programming there the pain is back.
thaumasiotes•9h ago
On a completely standard rectangular-block keyboard, I don't use pinkies to type. Actually, I do use my left pinky to hit left shift. But that's it.
dugidugout•8h ago
milch•7h ago
tracker1•8h ago
The physical bump helps you type without bottoming out with practice it helps a lot with RSI, at least from my N:1 experience.
trostaft•7h ago
buzzerbetrayed•5h ago
Sounds like you’re a special case then. Most people can type fine on any qwerty keyboard. And your willingness to turn a blind eye to pretty major annoyances makes it seem like you’re trying to justify the effort you’ve put into Colemak. Even if you aren’t doing that, you’ll get more mileage out of just admitting that it’s annoying to have to use another keyboard.
lycopodiopsida•4h ago
Nah, I know vim, meow, emacs keybindings but mostly use boon. I am also able to use my zoo of keyboards in the drawer without any problem, including Model100, KA2 and Glove80. Not everyone is limited by difficulty of learning a skill. There was absolutely no reason to keep qwery and staggered keyboard skills sharp, so I did let it go. Q.E.D.
hajile•10h ago
The speed is about the same. The big colmak win for me was that my hands/arms didn't ache after long typing sessions. Ergonomics and not getting repetitive motion injuries matter to me more than compatibility (though I can still type in qwerty even if it's slower these days).
meesles•10h ago
Citation needed. Of my 2 friends that have tried, neither have been able to reach their 'standard' typing speed after 1+ years of dvorak. Maybe they didn't try hard enough?
miroljub•8h ago
No, not needed.
This is not an HN comment posting a subjective opinion, not a scientific work that requires real, or a Wikipedia article that requires any citation.
allknowingfrog•9h ago
Do you spend a lot of time on systems that you don't control? Dvorak discourages other people from helping themselves to my keyboard, which is honestly worth more to me than being able to go the opposite direction.
tmtvl•9h ago
miroljub•8h ago
eviks•8h ago
(less so for keyboard layout since it's harder to fix in other machines) but the ergonomics of your 99% use cases - using your own keyboard/your own editor config with 1% awkwardness when you can't copy a config beats the health-hazardous use 100% of the time.
> via well-maintained plugins
so those can read your vim config and maintain your better keybinds, right?
lenkite•7h ago
Feel less efficient with Helix motions:
https://www.reddit.com/r/HelixEditor/comments/1h5qqg7/i_feel...
grayrest•6h ago
As near as I can tell, people generally type at similar speeds regardless of layout. If you're aiming for speed typing [1], I can see it making a difference, but chances are you're not going to see much of a difference. I type on an alpha-thumb layout (Hands Down Vibranium, the R key is under my left thumb) on an ergo keyboard. It's like using a fountain pen versus a cheap ballpoint or a nice mechanical keyboard vs a membrane keyboard. The experience is nicer but it's not a fundamentally different process. Being on a weird setup, I was concerned about "what if my keyboard breaks", "what if I'm on a public computer", etc and the solution is just to not forget qwerty. I use the laptop keyboard every other day or so for something short like a comment and it's fine.
What my personal setup does let me do is have my wrists in a neutral position with my arms resting on chair armrests and no active muscle effort. Between the efficient layout and small keyboard I never need to move my hands at all. This means that my wrists are just as well positioned after 12 hours as they are at the start and that's what has been letting my stress injuries recover.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/KeyboardLayouts/comments/1lfu1xt/fi...
Archelaos•6h ago
You haven't travelled far, obviously.
timeon•5h ago
atiedebee•1h ago
Using vim motions in Intellij or just vim hasn't been a problem for me at all. I don't use very advanced shortcuts (the most complicated motions I ever use are ciw and the likes). Even though they are quite different (ciw is <alt>iwc in kakoune) I adjust to them quite easily. Kakoune has also helped me get better at using vim because there is quite some overlaps that are more discoverable in kakoune (<alt>i summons a clippy that shows all the different objects you can select)