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Vodafone Germany is killing the open internet – one peering connection at a time

https://coffee.link/vodafone-germany-is-killing-the-open-internet-one-peering-connection-at-a-time/
146•PhilKunz•1h ago

Comments

wil421•53m ago
I worked with Vodafone years ago to do an integration with ticketing systems. It seems like no one actually worked for Vodafone it was all contractors or contractors of contractors of contractors.

Outsourcing peering to a 3rd party seems like their playbook.

lifestyleguru•43m ago
I used service of Vodafone Germany once. In paperwork fever I only scanned the contract and saw somewhere 6000 but signed off and moved along with remaining paperwork. I thought "it has to be at least 60Mbit/s, right?". Nope. 6Mbit/s DSL, two years contract, cancellation by letter. Fuck you, Vodafone.
egeozcan•41m ago
At such organizations, you can usually communicate with any contractor, but you must go through a project manager. These managers, who are often contractors themselves, act as a support center for the other contractors.
benced•44m ago
Rare comparative W for American ISPs?
aidenn0•32m ago
I think Comcast charges for peering as well (but not through an intermediary).
stego-tech•26m ago
Not really, as US ISPs have been repeatedly trying to game the system into becoming landlords for decades. The difference is, ironically, their own self-imposed monopolies: Comcast may be a T1 ISP, but they’re largely a monopoly in the markets they serve. Same goes for Verizon, Spectrum, Cox, TDS, etc. The end result is a sort of “forced cooperation” with each other, though occasionally one will try to extort the others for cash (I seem to recall L3 and Cogent both engaging in this bullshit around the time streaming video got big).

Companies are extractive by nature, and they will always try to find new ways of squeezing blood from a stone absent regulations saying otherwise (and suitable punishments ensuring anyone caught violating them is crippled in the marketplace, if not outright destroyed). This has been going on for decades and will continue absent regulatory intervention. Just look at how the US Electrical grid bills to see how this could end up (higher prices, bullshit fees, redundant billing).

rsingel•15m ago
California's net neutrality law bans these kinds of paid interconnections, but they likely exist as all these deals are wrapped in 15 layers of NDAs
stego-tech•6m ago
Exactly. Regulations without suitable punishments and investigatory powers are essentially only barriers to new entrants, not deterrents of bad behavior.
Liftyee•42m ago
New selling point for all the VPN sponsored segments... "if you're on Vodafone Germany, make your connection speeds faster with YetAnotherVPN!"
Lio•41m ago
Is there anything that Vodafone customers can do legally to punish Vodafone or not delivering on their broadband contracts?

If you're paying for a 1Gbps connection and Netflix is only able to stream to you at 0.93 Mbps because Vodafone or Inter.link are choking off the supply, surely that's breach of contract on Vodafone's part?

I'm sure Cory Doctorow has a word for what's happening here.

tracker1•38m ago
Are there competing options, or are they a monopoly?
lifestyleguru•33m ago
In Germany in specific building there is only one provider available in your telephone socket, and one in your cable socket in your apartment. Frequently there is no cable socket.
aidenn0•33m ago
Sounds like their largest competitor (DT) is already doing this.
okanat•27m ago
Yes and no. There are other providers in Germany. However, with the EU's neoliberal privatization policy the governments privatized many existing infrastructure. Vodafone bought the previous government company that owned all of the the cable TV infrastructure of Germany. So they are a monopoly of a particular type of internet connection. Depending on the place the alternatives could be too slow since Germany also has an aging population that do not {care about, demand} higher internet speeds and didn't upgrade its copper infrastructure due to corruption.
fuzzy2•26m ago
No monopoly. Only for cable internet, which may be a possible argument. For landline internet (DSL), there's plenty of alternatives.
Retric•15m ago
High speed internet is a market not just internet access. Email might not care that your on a DSL connection but a streamer can’t generally use DSL as a substitute.
growt•13m ago
Afaik almost a monopoly: there is Deutsche Telekom which does the same thing and Vodafone. I think apart from some local providers almost everybody else is just a reseller of one of the two.
fweimer•6m ago
There are resellers that do not just rebrand a whitebox product, but have their own IP addresses, network and peering polices. Their customers are not necessarily impacted by the IP peering policies of the company that owns the access network.
aktuel•11m ago
Depends on the region. Often there are smaller regional companies providing fiber internet. Prices for these fiber connections a still somewhat higher than the cheapest vodafone tier, but you also get better service for your money.
m_gloeckl•33m ago
You can file a complaint with the "Federal ministry for digital transformation" (formed this year). It does actually work, but it's a lengthy process.

I did force my cell phone carrier to grant me proper 4G speeds last year, after spending many hours with their help line and ultimately complaining to the (then) ministry of transportation and digital infrastructure.

lukan•33m ago
"If you're paying for a 1Gbps connection"

That's why you are paying for a "up to" 1Gbps connection. (I think it was already a struggle that they had to put the "up to" in the big advertisement)

Telaneo•29m ago
Surely there's a reasonable expectation that Netflix would work at decent speeds, especially given that Netflix's infrastructure, nor the network load as a whole are to blame, but rather the specific ISP bureaucracy? Getting 1/1000 the listed speed does not strike me as something even a 75 year old computer neophyte of a judge would take kindly too, unless it were for very good reasons.
fluoridation•14m ago
I don't think there really is much that can be done. Even under ideal conditions, an ISP could only possibly guarantee the advertised link speed between you and their routers, not between you and any particular node on the Internet. Is it possible an ISP might be doing things that harm the QoS? Yeah, sure. But the angle to approach that problem is not by complaining about instances of limited bandwidth.
Telaneo•7m ago
But the true link speed's not even what's being asked for. 4K Netflix never goes above 20 Mbps as far as I know, so getting just 1/50 the advertised speed to one of the most well-known internet services in existence, hardly seems like a big ask, especially when the only reason that it can't reach that speed or higher is because of the ISP, given that swapping to one that aren't being knobheads about it fixes the problem. It should be the responsibility of the ISP to keep links to other parts of the internet as open as possible. If real-world constraints prevent the speed from being all that high, because it's a shitty server in Australia, then that's understandable. This however, isn't that.

All I'm getting from this is that it's a good idea to label ISPs utilities and bring the hammer down if they're being knobheads about it.

mystraline•41m ago
The play by major content providers is "not to pay" and "block inter.link"

Sure, you lose Vodafone germany. Then you explain clearly why to every major media.

This coukd be stopped fairly quickly.

TulliusCicero•38m ago
Blocking seems overkill. Just put up a banner explaining why the service is slow, warning customers about their ISPs.
fuzzy2•40m ago
It's important to keep in mind that Deutsche Telekom is basically doing the same, and has been… forever?

I disagree with this move, but it is not without precedent.

sadeshmukh•26m ago
They mention it extensively in the article.
kleiba•5m ago
I suppose OP is hinting at the fact that Germans are probably already used to having one of the shittiest internet services in the Western world.
BoredPositron•39m ago
Fucking around with peering is the specialty of German ISPs. Telekom (our biggest provider) is sometimes unusable for YouTube/Netflix/Cloudflare/Steam in big cities because of similar shenanigans.
hylaride•28m ago
I was shocked just how slow and poor the mobile networks were in Germany. When I last visited (circa 2014) I literally switched my prepaid sim from T-Mobile to Vodaphone because the experience was so bad - only to have the same bad experience. I had barely usable LTE and connections dropped to EDGE on the train between Hamburg and Berlin. Google Maps barely loaded in the cities let alone the fact I was playing Ingress at the time and it was pretty much unusable

This was surprising to my Canadian sensibilities. Our mobile networks are expensive, but I generally get solid 4G and now 5G coverage between Toronto and Montreal and had full 4G (at the time) coverage on a road trip between Saskatoon and Calgary.

tracker1•37m ago
I hate this line of thinking.. Netflix isn't just sending data to random users, it's data Vodafone users request and want to receive.
phineyes•36m ago
This isn't unique to Vodafone. Google has also been slowly withdrawing from IXes globally in favor of PNIs and "VPPs" (verified peering providers). This only makes it harder for smaller networks to establish presence on the internet and feels pretty anti-competitive.

On the flip side, IXes are becoming harder and less desirable to participate in: port fees are going up, useful networks are withdrawing, low quality network participants are joining and widening blast radius. I'm not sure what the answer to this is, but this has not been a great year for the "open" internet.

hylaride•34m ago
Bell Canada also has had a long-standing policy of refusing to peer with internet exchanges. They'll only truly peer with other direct backbone providers and a handful of one-off peer with other large networks (google, cloud flare, etc), but their historical position as Canada's base backbone (not so much anymore, but it was definitely a thing pre-2005) has meant their policy is most people should pay them to peer. I'm not sure if it's still the case, but IIRC for awhile they also refused to peer with any other domestic backbone providers.

The result has been some funny routes sometimes. I live in Toronto and have seen trace routes bounce over to Chicago to connect to stuff colocated here in Toronto.

It's frustrating as their fibre is my only real high speed option; also their lack of IPv6 on anything but their mobile network is annoying.

danogentili•22m ago
Seems pretty much a private equivalent of "fair share" govt regulation currently being pushed by ISPs in Europe through lobbying with the Digital Networks Act (https://www.namex.it/toward-the-digital-networks-act-the-fut..., https://stopdna.eu/).

South Korea pioneered fair share govt regulations in 2016 (which caused Twitch to exit the market in 2024 due the exorbitant "fair share" fees).

stego-tech•20m ago
The solution - as always - is regulation. ISPs typically already have very generous business models with widespread monopolies on customers, overwhelming barriers to entry for new companies, and a lack of rate controls allowing then to price arbitrarily - all of which supports immensely profitable businesses without the need for additional extraction of capital from other parties. Regulators and consumers alike should be screaming in rage at the idea that their ISPs are now multi-dipping for revenue, but we’ve done a piss-poor job of explaining how this works to the common man and thus can’t count on them to support the Open Internet as we’d like to see it.

That being said, the threat to the open internet is also more than just ISPs being gigantic assholes: it’s centralization in general. A majority of web traffic passes into or through one of three main cloud compute providers, Cloudflare has such an outsized impact that regional IP blocks can disrupt global traffic, and ISPs have been permitted to consolidate through mergers and acquisitions into expansive monopolies. The internet is fiercely centralized and largely closed already, which is why these ploys by shitty ISPs are likely to work absent Government intervention.

You want to protect the open internet? Regulate the shit out of its major players again. Force them to keep it open, especially when it hinders expanding profit margins.

danogentili•16m ago
The current trend in govt regulation is actually going in the opposite direction, with telecom lobbies in Europe pushing for "fair share" (pretty much an implementation through law of what Deutsche Telekom and Vodafone Germany are doing right now) through the Digital Networks Act.

South Korea pioneered "fair share" govt regulations in 2016 (which caused Twitch to exit the market in 2024 due the exorbitant "fair share" fees).

stego-tech•8m ago
Because western governments (and those whose governments were modeled from western regimes - like post-war South Korea and Japan) have become victim to regulatory capture and corruption. It’s why the FCC has repeatedly killed, blocked, or reversed reforms like net neutrality or “nutrition labels” on ISPs, and why South Korea gave in to “fair share” regulations that deterred further investment. Tech money is hugely influential, and the industry is almost exclusively made up of rent-seeking slumlords at this point, particularly at the top (Oracle, Microsoft, Google, Adobe, Apple, etc). It’s why DMCA reform is blocked, why pirates get jail time while AI grifts get a hand-wave, and why right-to-repair or data privacy remains a fractured and piecemeal reform instead of a national agenda item.

The problem isn’t regulation, but regulatory capture ensuring companies get the regulations they desire and benefit from.

fweimer•12m ago
Is doing business with Inter.link really structurally different from getting connectivity to an exchange like DE-CIX and doing business there? I know that in theory, you get settlement-free peering at exchanges, but only for those networks that participate.

And who funds Inter.link? Their publicly available balance sheet shows significant, growing debts to a linked company, but it doesn't mention its name.

bbzylstra•10m ago
I'm surprised to read an obviously AI written article ("This isn't about efficiency—it's about extraction") from a tech/news site. Does anyone else find this weird? It make me question the editors note about how much background research was actually done.
unethical_ban•8m ago
It didn't seem AI to me.
littlestymaar•7m ago
It looks like the website was founded not so long ago, and I guess AI-generated slop is the only way to make a profitable web media nowadays.
bbzylstra•6m ago
Also, am I going crazy or do the "comment" and "share" buttons under the header just tick up but don't allow you to actually do anything? This feels like a vibe-coded website but it could be Firefox being weird.
littlestymaar•9m ago
The disclaimer at the top of the article is really mind blowing:

> We may have failed in some areas to grasp the issue entirely. The reader is advised that not everything might be correct and you should follow the sources and conduct your own research to get an adequate understanding of the subject at hand.

bell-cot•7m ago
Not to say that Mr. Musk seems popular in Germany, nor that orbital dynamics are friendly to high user densities, but ...
uyzstvqs•5m ago
It's very simple. I host my stuff on a network with an open peering policy. If you as an ISP somehow have peering issues with that, then that's a you problem. I will not pay a ransom to some shady middleman that you decide to use because your network admins are too lazy. I will (rightfully) blame you and tell your customers to switch ISPs if they have issues.

Play stupid games, win stupid prices. Just wait until Vodafone Germany customers get slow speeds and an automated warning banner on every other website they visit. "Too big to fail" until it isn't.

lwn•4m ago
I recently moved to a Dutch municipality that runs its own non-profit ISP. They installed a symmetric 1 Gbps fiber connection with a static IP at my house for 40 euros per month.

The service is solid, there’s no upselling or throttling, and hosting things from home just works. I bring this up because when we talk about “open”, “fair” and “monopolies” the model of a local, non-profit ISP backed by the municipality could offer a real alternative. It doesn’t directly solve the peering issues, but it shifts the balance of power (and cost) somewhat.

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