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Cities panic over having to release mass surveillance recordings

https://neuburger.substack.com/p/cities-panic-over-having-to-release
120•pavel_lishin•2h ago

Comments

tptacek•1h ago
They're not panicking about this in Illinois, because Illinois exempts raw ALPR footage from FOIA.

This page is blogspam, though.

pavel_lishin•1h ago
Both good points; I should have linked the original post at https://neuburger.substack.com/p/cities-panic-over-having-to...
dang•50m ago
Changed above from https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2025/11/cities-panic-over-ha.... Thanks!
dedup-com•1h ago
It must be said that "cities", as used in this piece, is a rather generous term. Sedro-Woolley has 13K residents. Stanwood has 9K. They probably don't have enough people on payroll to handle FOA requests, hence "panic".
mixmastamyk•1h ago
Are they not allowed to charge a service fee?
tptacek•1h ago
I don't know about WA, but not, in any practical sense, in IL.
barbazoo•1h ago
If they actually don't have the staff to do it, like I can imagine in small municipalities, then a fee wouldn't help either unless it allows for surge pricing that actually reduces the demand.
stemlord•58m ago
they can reroute the money they were paying for Flock with
floatrock•20m ago
Service fees is the counter-tactic here.

If it takes the city clerk multiple hours to assemble and distribute the video clips and time gets billed to $1k/request because it's being done in the most inefficient, asinine way, well, how many FOIA requests really have $1k of urgency behind them?

I don't know enough about municipal billing to know how defensible that is, but it's definitely one of the escalation paths here.

tptacek•11m ago
Not very defensible. Wherever you are, this is probably fairly settled law. In Illinois, playing games with fees for non-commercial requests is likely to land you in a suit with fee recovery for the plaintiff and thus good legal representation on contingency.
qchris•54m ago
You know, in hockey there's sometimes a saying that "if you're too small to carry your gear bag, you're too small to play hockey." Feels like there might be some kind of moral lesson there for this situation.
some_random•6m ago
Hockey is a game, governing is not.
hrimfaxi•5m ago
If the local governing body is too small to handle the requirements of governance, what then? Laws can be broken just because there are too few clerks?
darkwizard42•4m ago
Using invasive surveillance tech to govern is not needed then. If you can't handle the full service (on both ends) of the technology, then you can't deploy it and have to use regular old police work or legacy techniques to enforce it.

Using this tech is not mandatory to have governance.

th0ma5•5m ago
FOA requests are a part of the total cost of ownership of these products. At some point a vendor, the state, a consultancy was negligent in this fact, and we should not entertain ideas of minimizing the issues I agree. Cities is the correct term, below that size are villages and hamlets and if they are incorporated they are a city.
AdamJacobMuller•1h ago
I don't understand the correlation here, why does having to release the footage mean that the cities are shutting down the systems?

It seems like they could simply comply with the requirement that footage is public and they can/must share that footage as part of the FOIA process, I don't see much of a downside there and it seems like something which most police departments and municipalities are already doing with footage from other scenarios like body cameras?

jolmg•1h ago
My 2 cents: Police body cameras capture events at random locations. These other cameras are fixed in place and can more reliably be used to stalk people.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF•1h ago
There's also tons of these. I feel like I don't see a police cruiser every time I drive somewhere, but I do pass by a couple surveillance cameras.

If I assume that 1/3rd of my city's sworn officers are on duty at any time, there's literally more cameras than officers around town.

mc32•1h ago
Or as Thomas stated elsewhere in this thread, they can follow Illinois and just exempt ALPRs from FOIA reach.

ALPR FOIAs have the potential problem of abuse by stalkers and others wanting to track someone (imagine “Hollywood” personæs.)

It’d be a bad precedent to follow, but they could. I wonder what Tiburon will be doing. They’ve had ALPRs since forever as they only have one road in and one road out, so it’s easy for them to do.

tptacek•1h ago
Just raw footage and identifying information from cars, if I remember right. You can still make FOIA requests of data the PD keeps on hand from Flock searches.

There is an interesting thing happening in FOIA law here in WA (you'd never notice it from this spammy article, though). A pretty common FOIA exemption is for data not managed by a public body, but via some commercial vendor. FOIA generally only allows you to demand production of (1) actual documents that (2) the public body has (3) on hand (or are generally deemed to have on hand, such as email records).

So it's pretty legally dubious that you can use FOIA to compel production from Flock (you can probably compel, from the public body, any number of reports Flock can generate --- we've done that here for our Flock network and sharing configurations, for instance).

Here it sounds like a WA judge might be saying that some corpus of data Flock maintains is effectively public data. If that's the case, that's a novel interpretation.

pavel_lishin•50m ago
> ALPR FOIAs have the potential problem of abuse by stalkers and others wanting to track someone (imagine “Hollywood” personæs.)

Not potential problems, actual existing problems: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2025/05/she-got-abortion-so-te...

tptacek•33m ago
Worth being specific here: the problem this page is discussing isn't ALPRs per se, but automatic ALPR data sharing.
plorg•1h ago
They may feel (or their counsel may suggest) that it presents more of a legal risk than it's worth. A prudent city government would have evaluated this before installing such equipment, but maybe we can be generous and imagine that being subject to such litigation revealed a mismatch between their legal evaluation and the judiciary's.
belorn•59m ago
Here in Sweden, the use of license plate scanners has become the norm for basically all parking houses, bridge tolls and road tolls. Even if you don't install the app or become a "member" of whatever system they are using, the license plate scanners is still used to detect when you enter or leave, and in some cases they automatically look up your home address to send you the bill with zero interaction with the driver. Even if they offer alternative ways to pay, by for example sms, it still uses the license plate scanner when you leave.

The only political party to even mention this as a problem was the pirate party back 15 years ago, and even then it never became a major issue that got discussed. Like paying with credit cards rather than physical cash, people see it as convenience or just as the way things now work.

0_____0•46m ago
Looking for context here: how do Swedes view their government? Do they feel represented by, it, trust their governments etc.?

My perception as a USian in a coastal, progressive state, is that trust in government is quite low. Municipal and county governments do OK, but federal and to some degree state governments seems to have priorities that are wildly divergent from our own.

tptacek•34m ago
I'm in Chicagoland (in Oak Park, directly adjacent to the west side of Chicago) and it literally depends on which suburb you're in. Oak Park is hostile to ALPRs. Berwyn, our neighbor to the south, and River Forest, to the west, are carpeted with them. They're there because people want them.
LadyCailin•27m ago
I can’t speak to Swedes, but as an American Norwegian, I can say that the level of trust in Scandinavian is WAY higher than in the US. It’s not utopia, of course, (see Chat Control, for instance) but you really can trust the government here to take care of things when it goes off the rails for whatever reason.
maxeda•44m ago
Unlike toll roads and parking lot entrances it seems like these cameras are being installed for the sole purpose of surveillance and tracking peoples movements.

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