People keep missing Java's ideas due to OpenSTEP collaboration before Java came to be.
https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_Objects_Everywhere
https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/21/docs/specs/jar/jar...
Therefore it's not super surprising that successful products like Discord/Slack/Spotify gave up on a good native experience decades ago.
How I wish our operating systems still looked like this. Utilitarian, useful. No rounded corners and bubbly icons, reducing the useful space more and more each year.
The incredible quality of Mac hardware is the only thing keeping me from jumping to a thinkpad / omarchy setup.
(What I am a fan of is Leopard-era Aqua, which is reasonably information dense but uses depth and color to help focus your attention.)
It does not support the claim that corners are in any way special for human vision. I’m very skeptical on that. AFAIK motion is most easily perceptible.
I did tell a true and previously unreported Steve Jobs story on reddit the other day and was voted to -10 and someone told me I was off my meds. In conclusion, Steve Jobs is a land of contrasts.
> AFAIK motion is most easily perceptible.
That's how it works for predators, but you can see things that are still if you're focusing on them. It's important to see corners in real life because they actually can poke you. Like a paper cut.
IIRC, you can put stuff in arbitrary subfolders as long as you configure the RPATHs correctly. This works and passes notarization. I came across libname.dylib in the nonstandard location AppName.App/Contents/Libraries . Not to be confused with /Library or the recommended /Frameworks location. However, there are basically no benefits compared to using the recommended directory structure, and none of the 100+ macOS apps installed in my system have a /Libraries directory.
It’s picked up on submission automatically and not at review, but is a completely undocumented requirement.
mitchellh•7h ago
This is correct, but practically speaking non-notarized apps are pretty terrible to use for a user enough so that this isn't optional and you're going to pay your $99/yr Apple tax.
(This only applies to distributed software, if you are only building and running apps for your own personal use, its not bad because macOS lets you do that without the scary warnings)
For users who aren't aware of notarization, your app looks straight up broken. See screenshots in the Apple support site here: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102445
For users who are aware, you used to be able to right click and "run" apps and nowadays you need to actually go all the way into system settings to allow it: https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=saqachfa
I'm generally a fan of what Apple does for security but I think notarization specifically for apps outside the App Store has been a net negative for all parties involved. I'd love to hear a refutation to that because I've tried to find concrete evidence that notarization has helped prevent real issues and haven't been able to yet.
jclay•6h ago
It’s basically pay to play to get in the good graces of Windows Defender.
I think all-in it was over $1k upfront to get the various certs. The cert company has to do a pretty invasive verification process for both you and your company.
Then — you are required to use a hardware token to sign the releases. This effectively means we have one team member who can publish a release currently.
The cert company can lock your key as well for arbitrary reasons which prevents you from being able to make a release! Scary if the release you’re putting out is a security patch.
I’ll take the macOS ecosystem any day of the week.
deltaknight•6h ago
At least paying your dues to Apple guarantees a smooth user experience.
ryandrake•6h ago
jonathanlydall•3h ago
Source: We tried a non-EV code signing certificate for our product used by only dozens of users at the time, never stopped showing scary warnings. When we got an EV, no more issues.
In case it makes a difference, we use DigiCert.
dceddia•6h ago
If you go this route I highly recommend this article, because navigating through Azure to actually set it up is like getting through a maze. https://melatonin.dev/blog/code-signing-on-windows-with-azur...
jonathanlydall•3h ago
TobbenTM•6h ago
Azure Trusted Signing is 100% the best choice, but if for whatever reason you cannot use it, you can still use your own cloud store and hook in the signing tools. I wrote an article on using AWS KMS earlier this year: https://moonbase.sh/articles/signing-windows-binaries-using-...
TLDR: Doing this yourself requires a ~400-500$/year EV cert and miniscule cloud costs
jonathanlydall•3h ago
We’re (for the moment) a South African entity, so can’t use Azure Trusted Signing, but DigiCert has no issue with us using Azure KeyVault for our EV code signing certificate.
I had ours renewed just this week as it happens. Cost something like USD 840 before tax, don’t have a choice though and in the grand scheme of things it’s not a huge expense for a company.
jezek2•4h ago
Another alternative would be to bundle this app: https://github.com/alienator88/Sentinel
It allows to easily unlock it by drag'n'drop.
Klonoar•3h ago
It’s unfortunate it’s come to this but Apple is hardly the worst of the two now.
TheDong•5h ago
Notarization made it significantly harder to cross-compile apps for macOS from linux, which means people have to buy a lot of macOS hardware to run in CI instead of just using their existing linux CI to build mac binaries.
You also need to pay $99/year to notarize.
As such, I believe it's resulted in profit for Apple, so at least one of the parties involved has had some benefit from this setup.
Frankly I think Apple should keep going, developer licenses should cost $99 + 15% of your app's profit each year, and notarization should be a pro feature that requires a macbook pro or a mac pro to unlock.
mrpippy•5h ago
sholladay•4h ago
In each case, Apple revoked the enterprise certificate for the company, which caused a lot of internal fallout beyond just the offending app, because internal tools were distributed the same way.
Something may have changed, though, because I see Screenwise Meter listed on the App Store for iOS.
https://www.wired.com/story/facebook-research-app-root-certi...
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/02/google-screenwise-unwi...
lapcat•4h ago
Apple revokes macOS Developer ID code signing certificates all the time, mostly for malware, but occasionally for goodware, e.g., Charlie Monroe and HP printer drivers.
Also, infamously, Apple revoked the macOS Developer ID cert of Epic Games, as punishment for their iOS App Store dispute.
internet2000•4h ago
jonathanlydall•3h ago
The USD 99 annual fee is almost inconsequential, the painful part was getting a DUNS number (we’re a South African entity) and then getting it to work in a completely automated manner on our build server.
Fortunately, once set up it’s been almost no work since.
sneak•46m ago
For normal users this might as well be impossible.
Remember, your average user needs a shortcut to /Applications inside the .dmg image otherwise they won’t know where to drag the app to to install it.
sneak•48m ago
The system sucks. I’d love to be able to sign my legitimate apps with my legitimate company, but I don’t wish to put the name on my passport onto the screens of millions of people, and my company (around and operating for 20-ish years now) doesn’t pass the Apple verification for some reason.
I also can’t use auto-enroll (DEP) MDM for this reason.