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Greece Is Richer. So Why Do So Many Greeks Still Feel Poor?

https://www.dnews.gr/eidhseis/news-in-english/596650/greece-is-richer-so-why-do-so-many-greeks-still-feel-poor
23•theanonymousone•1h ago

Comments

root-parent•1h ago
Same with Brazil or Portugal or Angola. Full of billionaires with poor people.
mlinhares•35m ago
Yeah, its all inequality. Most people are going to be renters forever in my hometown and the government has absolutely no plan to fix it. People will just be pushed farther and farther away from where they work and will have longer and longer commutes because it is impossible to pay to live close to work with the salaries they're making.
bluefirebrand•28m ago
> Most people are going to be renters forever in my hometown and the government has absolutely no plan to fix it

This seems to be the plan basically everywhere though. Yes, some countries still have a ladder for average people to own property and find success, but the global trend seems to be that this possibility is shrinking for the vast majority of people

That's what happens when average people have to compete with real estate conglomerates for housing though

aleph_minus_one•19m ago
> Most people are going to be renters forever in my hometown and the government has absolutely no plan to fix it. People will just be pushed farther and farther away from where they work and will have longer and longer commutes because it is impossible to pay to live close to work with the salaries they're making.

[emphasis mine]

I somewhat disagree: at least during the COVID-19 times the government did have a plan to partially fix it: At that time there were a lot of discussions whether work from home will be there to stay or not.

If it would have stayed, that would have partially solved the problem (not for everybody, but for a substantial subset of people):

Since people can live at places where rent or the price of houses is much lower, companies can pay smaller salaries, but employees (after subtracting the cost of living) still have more money. In other words: both sides get their slice of the pie: employers can decrease salaries while employees still have more money.

Unluckily, when COVID-19 was over, companies decided they basically want people to come back to to office (working from home should be an exception).

This was the central reason why this plan failed.

microgpt•13m ago
Renting itself isn't inherently the problem if you have very strong tenant rights. Imagine renting came with all the rights of owning except the money flowed differently (like a perpetual mortgage) - that'd be pretty okay, actually. It is within the power of a government to enable something like that.
samiv•32m ago
There's no paradox here. Distribution of wealth matters. Rich got richer and everyone else didn't. Simple as that.
abirch•25m ago
As Ray Dalio has mentioned, you should measure results on how it impacts the bottom 51% of the people (the majority) it's a lot more illustrative than looking at the average.
samiv•21m ago
Yep. I'm not an economist but my social democratic common sense would tell me to look at the bottom 10% income bracket and see how they're doing.

Incidentally these people are the best economic citizens because if you give them money they'll spend every cent of it because they need to buy food and energy, use health care and pay rent.

In other words if a rich person gets a million they (if they're sane) spend a fraction of it and put the rest in assets, stock market, property, etc. If you give 1000 poor people each 1000e every cent will go into local economy immediately.

IshKebab•11m ago
Bottom 10% are outliers though. Bottom 50% is much more reasonable.
onraglanroad•10m ago
The capitalist response to that would be that the investment in companies is better because it makes everyone richer in the long term by increasing overall wealth.

I'm not sure I buy it but it's an effect to consider.

kubb
erdeibit•30m ago
Capitalism optimization: make the rich richer making the poor poorer
d4ng•26m ago
Influence will be distributed similarly, regardless of political system: (Pareto Principle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareto_principle
password54321•15m ago
You live in the most privileged period in human history.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/poverty-explorer?tab=li...

dwroberts•5m ago
You’re posting this like it’s a counterpoint, but it further highlights how disgusting the situation is. We have people becoming trillionaires while 10% of the world’s population is considered to be in extreme poverty. It’s ‘less bad’ than in the past but it’s still absolutely horrifying.
ykonstant•25m ago
Feel poor??? Man... this is some prime ragebait title.
BariumBlue•23m ago
Seems like housing again:

> Rents have surged in recent years, driven by tourism, foreign investment and a shortage of affordable housing. The cost of housing now consumes one of the largest shares of disposable income in the European Union

My impression is that where housing is expensive, there will be complaints of unaffordability (obviously), but also vice versa, that where there is unaffordability, housing always seems to be a large component (at least in "the west").

in most places basic food (rice and beans or an equivalent) is cheap. Services can usually be skimped on. Transportation can usually be flexible (new car / cheap used car / transit / bike). Housing costs seem to be relatively non-flexible though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Greece has strong NIMBY factors.

cucumber3732842•17m ago
>I wouldn't be surprised if Greece has strong NIMBY factors.

No doubt. You see it in tourism economies the world over.

Cheap services + cultural/historical novelty + nice climate make tourism highly viable -> tourism becomes outsized part of economy -> those enriched by peddling tourism write the rules to their benefit -> it becomes all but illegal to develop any other industry, build housing, etc, etc because all this activity winds up punitively regulated lest someone do something that scared away the tourists.

j16sdiz•14m ago
> (at least in "the west").

It is the same in the east - it is either housing, or housing related tax.

spystath•11m ago
You are right that it's due to housing but in my opinion most of unaffordability comes from immense pressure due to tourism. Housing situation is better outside the touristy areas (and Athens). If anything Greece has seen massive housebuilding up until the economic crash in the early 10s. I remember block of flats appearing left and right in most major cities in a span of months. They still do but in a lot of cases they are almost exclusively short-term lets (again especially in tourist hubs). Why let a flat for €500 monthly when you can charge €150 per night? It's maddening.
lebuffon•22m ago
The way this wealth inequality is so common around the world. makes me wonder if the next time the pitchforks come out, it will be some kind of global uprising. Perhaps accelerated by social media. Or are the elite better able to control the masses in this age?
aleph_minus_one•15m ago
> The way this wealth inequality is so common around the world. makes me wonder if the next time the pitchforks come out, it will be some kind of global uprising. [...] Or are the elite better able to control the masses in this age?

I rather believe that the individual problems in each country are very different (even though you summarize them by "this wealth inequality is so common around the world"). Additionally, it often happens that the interests of people in one country are antagonistic to the interests of people in another country, so I don't believe that people from different countries will club together, and have common wishes.

jedimastert•10m ago
> Additionally, it often happens that the interests of people in one country are antagonistic to the interests of people in another country.

I find this honestly kind of difficult to believe, except when it comes to distractions by the people who want to stay in power

cucumber3732842•21m ago
Because, to the surprise of literally nobody who's ever been on the receiving end of these sorts of policies they cook up in far away think tank offices and the ivory towers of academia, there's a million ways to make the number go up that doesn't actually make normal people any better off.
nosioptar•12m ago
At this point, I'd settle for not being better off. It'd be a helluva lot better than everything getting worse.

We need to eat the fucking rich. Bnch of parasitic fuckwads.

g8oz•20m ago
<https://rentierblackhole.com/>

"The Rentier Black Hole"

A theory of land, housing, and open-economy failure: how a non-reproducible asset absorbs global savings, breaks wage-price adjustment, and hollows out the productive economy.

jedimastert•12m ago
The idea that the answer to this question would not be intuitive to pretty much anyone that participates in an economy is a genuine shock.
Avicebron•7m ago
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -Upton Sinclair
alephnerd•10m ago
Gotta love HNers who never read articles and use it as a soapbox:

"The scale of the destruction that followed the debt crisis was extraordinary. Between 2009 and the trough of the bailout years in 2016, average household wealth fell by roughly 35%, wiping out more than a third of Greek families' assets"

...

"The labour market has improved markedly since the darkest years of the crisis, with unemployment falling sharply and the informal economy shrinking. But structural weaknesses remain deeply embedded. Long-term unemployment, low participation in the workforce and a high reliance on self-employment continue to shape opportunities and outcomes"

----

Tl;dr - Greek households still haven't recovered from the Eurozone crisis.

sgt101•9m ago
Frustraged by the endless prattle about GDP, europoors and Brexit, me and my agent frien's sat (manifested) together and brewed up some alternatives:

https://x.com/AiSimonThompson/status/2070900546119114970/pho...

I think that median household disposable income is a much better way of looking at this than GDP.

2014 is the turn. The US gained shale, isolationism is possible, Trump 2 is created by the general (true) perception that things were good under Trump 1. The European war starts and China is left to dominate Asia.

lokar•9m ago
I could see this was bad reporting right away. Average wealth? Per-capita gdp? Pointless. Give me the decile values, or just show the histogram.
•
5m ago
That does sometimes happen - investment does cause development. The mistake is to assume that's always what happens.
zhoBEENG•21m ago
Should we perhaps look at the top 51% instead? Why pick one perspective over the other?

I’m not familiar with Dalio outside some weird pseudo-academic paper he wrote where he attempts to provide a new grand theory of economics based on “transactions”, but I would be interested to hear this perspective supported.

Edit: samiv above answered my question

rcxdude•14m ago
Well, if you're looking at the bottom X%, then you can be confident that the rest of the population are in a better position.
amelius•14m ago
The median is usually used for this; it throws away outliers on both sides.
rcxdude•12m ago
This is not quite the same as the median: it is possible for the bottom 50% to improve but for the median to stay the same (i.e. imagine if everyone in the bottom 50% suddenly equaled the best of them). But the median is a lot better than the mean for not being distorted by large changes in the top and bottom percentiles.
mannykannot•8m ago
This seems to tacitly assume that the outliers on either side have equivalent weight with respect to whatever is being investigated, while the explicit premise behind this proposal is that in this case they do not.
radu_floricica•5m ago
Considering how skewed tax participation is, this would be a very one sided view. Just tax the top 49% more, no matter what's their current level of taxation, and redistribute to the lower 51%. It'll always make this criteria look like a success.

Problem is, this creates systemic effects. If you look longer term, a society that does this will end up a lot poorer than one that doesn't. Even for the bottom 51% you were optimizing. Because there are two variables to control: the redistribution, and the actual productivity. If you just focus on splitting wealth, you stop growing wealth.

Growing wealth on the other hand will make everybody richer, including the botton 51%. Simply participating in a richer economy has advantages. Plus the smaller redistribution percentage will actually end up bigger in absolute terms.

EgregiousCube•10m ago
Why are prices up even though population is down over the past ten years? Did everybody decide to move to the city or something?
bryanlarsen•4m ago
The article gives a dozen reasons why people in Greece feel poor. Housing is just one of them. A big one, perhaps, but there are many others in the article.

It's interesting that housing is the one that all the HN commenters pick out to comment on. It's probably the most universal complaint, the one that's easiest to sympathize with from halfway around the world.

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