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1•m0x41nos•18m ago•0 comments
Open in hackernews

Montreal adopts bylaw banning insults against police, municipal employees

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/montreal-city-council-police-9.7352920
37•MC995•59m ago

Comments

clarionbell•44m ago
I know that speech protections are not exactly maximalist in Canada, but surely this can't be compatible with the charter?
__s•35m ago
> Other municipalities in the province, including Quebec City, Laval, Longueuil and Sherbrooke, already have similar bylaws.

apparently it can be

8note•33m ago
the other part about canada is that quebec didnt sign on to the canadian constitution, so its only the quebec charter, which is a law like any other
yieldcrv•12m ago
now thats news to me, I need to look into that

is there appeals to national courts there

gruez•1m ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and...

>The Charter is applicable in Quebec because all provinces are bound by the constitution.

unsupp0rted•14m ago
Canada only enforces the parts of its Charter the current government feels like, and actively does the opposite of its Charter when the current government feels like it.
montroser•40m ago
I predict this will go badly. I would not describe the good people of Montreal as a "compliant" lot. You can't legislate respect.
alistairSH•36m ago
Assault was already illegal. So, this is to also ban calling the police names?

Already illegal: "I'm going to kick your ass" Now illegal: "You're a poopy head"

dominotw•20m ago
all jobs deserve dignity.

how would you feel if ppl called you that at work.

sedawkgrep•17m ago
When you have masked ICE agents abducting people on the streets and making them disappear, dignity is long, long gone.
dominotw•14m ago
what do montreal municipal employees have to do with ice.
arcfour•7m ago
You're aware that Canada is not a state of the US, right?

(This should be a sign that you need to turn off the TV and delete Facebook).

James_K•6m ago
So why are insults permitted against other professions?
7734128•2m ago
nekusar•35m ago
Pigs are pigs the world around.

They only defend monied interests of the political elite and rich folk. And yet they demand 'authority', even when not at all deserved.

redanddead•34m ago
Unpopular distraction, elections are Oct 5th
giarc•26m ago
I think these are the key sentences in that article (below). This bylaw is probably targeted toward citizens that come in and berate staff because they find out they have an unpaid parking ticket from 2 years ago that they have to pay before renewing their license (for example).

>The new Montreal bylaw would ban insults, harassment, threats, abuse and intimidation, as well as offensive and aggressive behaviour.

>It also includes provisions saying city employees could refuse to provide services to someone who misbehaves. However, the bylaw doesn't define what could be construed as an insult.

cucumber3732842•22m ago
> This bylaw is probably targeted toward citizens that come in and berate staff because they find out they have an unpaid parking ticket from 2 years ago that they have to pay before renewing their license (for example).

That's how the (evil) people who support it will construe it. In reality that kind of stuff doesn't really bother employees all that much because it's just part of the job, they knew it going in and everyone agrees those sort of people are out of line.

What bothers employees is when they get heckled for doing (in the course of their job) stuff that just about everyone agrees is wrong, bad, stupid or heavy handed, because most of those employees know deep down they're in the wrong, and having it pointed out and having enough of the public agree with the hecklers in message if not in delivery is a real morale killer. And then your burnt out employees stop giving a shit, do a bad job, get caught on camera enforcing the "you had to lie through your teeth to defend it to begin with" policy in a way that lays bare how f-d up it is. And that's what they're trying to avoid by threatening to fine any peasant who opens their mouth.

redanddead•17m ago
Yup. It’s symptomatic of poor governance. Government services not working as good as they should and of course people are pissed. To be frank, the government employees are divas and aren’t effective.

You will find the same behavior across so many different government services — a culture of not taking charge, or like committee thinking. Nothing gets done.

There’s a reason people are pissed.

Idk what the solution is, my brain goes to automated government services, maybe something like Singapore, Jakarta, KL. People are way happier there for a reason, you won’t need a bylaw to stop people from cussing at government employees lol

guyzero•24m ago
Hostie d'tabarnak, flic.
lokar•22m ago
This kind of thing is concerning, but I think there is a place for rules like this.

You already see this in many public businesses. Front line workers should not have to endure abuse from the public.

But, the standard for sworn officers should be much higher.

tancop•6m ago
Abusing employees in a business is already banned. Harassment by verbal abuse and you can get criminal penalties if it's serious enough. Threats and false allegations are also illegal. There are existing laws for all the serious cases.

Criminalizing an insult is not the same thing at all. This law could get people fined for saying some cop is racist or even things not aimed at a specific person like wearing a fuck the police shirt. And insults are subjective so it's all up to the prosecutor and judge, who might side with the police by default when the evidence is unclear.

dlcarrier•12m ago
Is there an extra harsh punishment, if the insults aren't in French?
heisgone•6m ago
For context, police gained support for this bylaw following this video. The guy posted the video of himself of calling an office a whore on socia media. The fact the officer was so polite and couldn't do anything about it made people furious. Of course, there is real risk of abuse of this law but that's the context.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9YMLpiDPWs

petcat•4m ago
Something similar was attempted in Houston in the 1980s and the US Supreme Court struck it down as a clear 1st amendment violation [1]

> The Constitution does not allow such speech to be made a crime. The freedom of individuals verbally to oppose or challenge police action without thereby risking arrest is one of the principal characteristics by which we distinguish a free nation from a police state.

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/482/451

throwfaraway135•2m ago
I'm pro people having dignity in their jobs, but considering how unnecessarily complex and sometimes even hostile modern bureaucracy is this is going to remove one feedback mechanism that may have been globally good.
No, they do not.

There are many people who deserve to feel ashamed for what they do for a living.

A lot of people should be shunned for what they do to others, regardless of whether it's for making money or for other purposes.

alistairSH•2m ago
We should not criminalize speech because it makes somebody sad.
cucumber3732842•4m ago
I don't think it's even that the service that is delivered is unsatisfactory. I think it's that what the government is engaged in actively runs counter to what the people broadly want.
IncreasePosts•19m ago
I'm predicting the police will use it to stifle any kind of criticism.

Like: police officer does something racist. Person says "hey, you're racist!". Police officer then gives a $1000 fine to the person for insulting them