frontpage.
newsnewestaskshowjobs

Made with ♥ by @iamnishanth

Open Source @Github

fp.

Open in hackernews

Falsify: Hypothesis-Inspired Shrinking for Haskell (2023)

https://www.well-typed.com/blog/2023/04/falsify/
90•birdculture•12mo ago

Comments

sshine•12mo ago
How does Hedgehog and Hypothesis differ in their shrinking strategies?

The article uses the words "integrated" vs. "internal" shrinking.

> the raison d’être of internal shrinking: it doesn’t matter that we cannot shrink the two generators independently, because we are not shrinking generators! Instead, we just shrink the samples that feed into those generators.

Besides that it seems like falsify has many of the same features like choice of ranges and distributions.

_jackdk_•12mo ago
This is the key sentence:

> The key insight of the Hypothesis library is that instead of shrinking generated values, we instead shrink the samples produced by the PRNG.

Hedgehog loses shrink information when you do a monadic bind (Gen a -> (a -> Gen b) -> Gen b). Hypothesis parses values out of the stream of data generated by the PRNG, so when it "binds", you are still just consuming off that stream of random numbers, and you can shrink the stream to shrink the generated values.

Here is a talk that applies the Hypothesis idea to test C++: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6joICx1XMY . Discussion of PBT implementation approaches begins at 6:30.

thesz•12mo ago
This is fascinating!

If I understand correctly, they approximate language of inputs of a function to discover minimal (in some sense, like "shortest description length") inputs that violate relations between inputs and outputs of a function under scrutiny.

evertedsphere•12mo ago

    newtype Parser a = Parser ([Word] -> (a, [Word])
missing a paren here
moomin•12mo ago
I’m honestly completely failing to understand the basic idea here. What does this look like for generating and shrinking random strings,
chriswarbo•12mo ago
One straightforward approach would be:

- Generate a random number N for the size (maybe restricted to some Range)

- Generate N `Char` values, by using a random number for each code point.

- Combine those Chars into a string

falsify runs a generator by applying it to an infinite binary tree, with random numbers in the nodes. A generator can either consume a single number (taken from the root node of a tree), or it can run two other generators (one gets run on the left child, the other gets run on the right). Hence the above generator would use the value in the left child as N, then run the "generate N Chars" generator on the right child. The latter generator would run a Char generator on its left child, and an 'N-1 Chars' generator on its right child; and so on.

To shrink, we just run the generator on a tree with smaller numbers. In this case, a smaller number in the left child will cause fewer Chars to be generated; and smaller numbers in the right tree will cause lower code-points to be generated. falsify's tree representation also has a special case for the smallest tree (which returns 0 for its root, and itself for each child).

mjw1007•12mo ago
I've found in practice that shrinking to get the "smallest amount of detail" is often unhelpful.

Suppose I have a function which takes four string parameters, and I have a bug which means it crashes if the third is empty.

I'd rather see this in the failure report:

("ldiuhuh!skdfh", "nd#lkgjdflkgdfg", "", "dc9ofugdl ifugidlugfoidufog")

than this:

("", "", "", "")

gwern•12mo ago
Really? Your examples seem the opposite. I am left immediately thinking, "hm, is it failing on a '!', some sort of shell issue? Or is it truncating the string on '#', maybe? Or wait, there's a space in the third one, that looks pretty dangerous, as well as noticeably longer so there could be a length issue..." As opposed to the shrunk version where I immediately think, "uh oh: one of them is not handling an empty input correctly." Also, way easier to read, copy-paste, and type.
dullcrisp•12mo ago
Their point is that in the unshrunk example the “special” value stands out.

I guess if we were even more clever we could get to something more like (…, …, "", …).

gwern•12mo ago
The special value doesn't stand out, though. All three examples I gave were what I thought skimming his comment before my brain caught up to his caveat about an empty third argument. The empty string looked like it was by far the most harmless part... Whereas if they are all empty strings, then by definition the empty string stands out as the most suspicious possible part.
tybug•12mo ago
The Hypothesis explain phase [1][2] does this!

  fails_on_empty_third_arg(
      a = "",  # or any other generated value
      b = "",  # or any other generated value
      c = "",  
      d = "",  # or any other generated value
  )
[1] https://hypothesis.readthedocs.io/en/latest/reference/api.ht...

[2] https://github.com/HypothesisWorks/hypothesis/pull/3555

chriswarbo•12mo ago
> As opposed to the shrunk version where I immediately think, "uh oh: one of them is not handling an empty input correctly."

I agree that non-empty strings are worse, but unfortunately `("", "", "", "")` wouldn't only make me think of empty strings; e.g. I'd wonder whether duplicate/equal values are the problem.

chriswarbo•12mo ago
> I'd rather see this in the failure report:

> ("ldiuhuh!skdfh", "nd#lkgjdflkgdfg", "", "dc9ofugdl ifugidlugfoidufog")

I would prefer LazySmallcheck's result, which would be the following:

    (_, _, "", _)
Where `_` indicates that part of the input wasn't evaluated.
yorwba•12mo ago
A minimal reproducing example cannot guarantee that you'll correctly diagnose a bug just by looking at the example (because multiple potential bugs could cause the same example to fail) but it can guarantee that when you step through the code to understand what's happening, you won't have to deal with huge amounts of irrelevant data.

Maybe an alternative shrinking procedure could directly minimize the number of instructions that need to be executed to hit a failure...

edsko•12mo ago
(Author of falsify here.) You are absolutely correct that the empty string isn't always the best counter-example. The goal of shrinking is to shrink to the _simplest_ possible value (this is true for all approaches to shrinking). What constitutes "simple" is very much domain specific. It would certainly be possible to write a generator that would shrink to, say, "foo", as the canonical "simplest" example of a simple string. Indeed, since we are working in a lazy language, you could (with a bit of effort) shrink to `undefined` if the other arguments are not used at all.
mjw1007•12mo ago
I agree it can be domain-specific, but I think it's more common than not that empty containers, and the number zero, are corner cases rather than typical values.

So I think it would be a decent quality-of-life improvement to make generators of the sort you suggest easily available, and have the tutorial docs use them from the start.

shae•12mo ago
I care about the edge between "this value fails, one value over succeeds". I wish shrinking were fast enough to tell me if there are multiple edges between those values.

Category Theory Illustrated – Orders

https://abuseofnotation.github.io/category-theory-illustrated/04_order/
22•boris_m•1h ago•3 comments

Show HN: I made a calculator that works over disjoint sets of intervals

https://victorpoughon.github.io/interval-calculator/
128•fouronnes3•6h ago•17 comments

Claude Design

https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-design-anthropic-labs
1009•meetpateltech•17h ago•663 comments

Amiga Graphics

https://amiga.lychesis.net/
15•sph•1h ago•0 comments

Measuring Claude 4.7's tokenizer costs

https://www.claudecodecamp.com/p/i-measured-claude-4-7-s-new-tokenizer-here-s-what-it-costs-you
597•aray07•16h ago•421 comments

Towards trust in Emacs

https://eshelyaron.com/posts/2026-04-15-towards-trust-in-emacs.html
92•eshelyaron•2d ago•10 comments

The simple geometry behind any road

https://sandboxspirit.com/blog/simple-geometry-of-roads/
10•azhenley•2d ago•0 comments

Rewriting Every Syscall in a Linux Binary at Load Time

https://amitlimaye1.substack.com/p/rewriting-every-syscall-in-a-linux
33•riteshnoronha16•4d ago•10 comments

All 12 moonwalkers had "lunar hay fever" from dust smelling like gunpowder (2018)

https://www.esa.int/Science_Exploration/Human_and_Robotic_Exploration/The_toxic_side_of_the_Moon
319•cybermango•13h ago•185 comments

Spending 3 months coding by hand

https://miguelconner.substack.com/p/im-coding-by-hand
197•evakhoury•15h ago•195 comments

A simplified model of Fil-C

https://www.corsix.org/content/simplified-model-of-fil-c
169•aw1621107•10h ago•88 comments

It is incorrect to "normalize" // in HTTP URL paths

https://runxiyu.org/comp/doubleslash/
13•pabs3•2h ago•3 comments

Are the costs of AI agents also rising exponentially? (2025)

https://www.tobyord.com/writing/hourly-costs-for-ai-agents
190•louiereederson•2d ago•48 comments

Brunost: The Nynorsk Programming Language

https://lindbakk.com/blog/introducing-brunost
49•atomfinger•4d ago•19 comments

Show HN: Smol machines – subsecond coldstart, portable virtual machines

https://github.com/smol-machines/smolvm
320•binsquare•14h ago•99 comments

Why is IPv6 so complicated?

https://github.com/becarpenter/misc/blob/main/why6why.md
53•signa11•1h ago•73 comments

Show HN: PanicLock – Close your MacBook lid disable TouchID –> password unlock

https://github.com/paniclock/paniclock/
186•seanieb•15h ago•76 comments

Slop Cop

https://awnist.com/slop-cop
163•ericHosick•16h ago•99 comments

Hyperscalers have already outspent most famous US megaprojects

https://twitter.com/finmoorhouse/status/2044933442236776794
184•nowflux•15h ago•143 comments

"cat readme.txt" is not safe if you use iTerm2

https://blog.calif.io/p/mad-bugs-even-cat-readmetxt-is-not
167•arkadiyt•13h ago•91 comments

Making Wax Sealed Letters at Scale

https://waxletter.com/
15•hjconstas•2d ago•11 comments

NASA Force

https://nasaforce.gov/
266•LorenDB•16h ago•264 comments

Middle schooler finds coin from Troy in Berlin

https://www.thehistoryblog.com/archives/75848
226•speckx•17h ago•102 comments

Landmark ancient-genome study shows surprise acceleration of human evolution

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-026-01204-5
71•unsuspecting•9h ago•61 comments

Casus Belli Engineering

https://marcosmagueta.com/blog/casus-belli-engineering/
34•b-man•6h ago•7 comments

NIST gives up enriching most CVEs

https://risky.biz/risky-bulletin-nist-gives-up-enriching-most-cves/
196•mooreds•17h ago•47 comments

Arc Prize Foundation (YC W26) Is Hiring a Platform Engineer for ARC-AGI-4

https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/arc-prize-foundation/jobs/AKZRZDN-platform-engineer-benchma...
1•gkamradt_•11h ago

The Unix executable as a Smalltalk method (2025) [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZjPQ7vtLNA
51•surprisetalk•1d ago•3 comments

Introducing: ShaderPad

https://rileyjshaw.com/blog/introducing-shaderpad/
88•evakhoury•2d ago•18 comments

The GNU libc atanh is correctly rounded

https://inria.hal.science/hal-05591661
88•matt_d•3d ago•18 comments