People suffer worst than death over words all the time, even in the West. Some folks adhere to honour, some to political groups and ideologies, some religion, some to their social views; there are words that are treated as violence and responded to accordingly in every context.
I'm Turkish. I grew up in Turkey. These things happen, but let's not try to justify them. We should aim to get to a point where people share these "western values" (of not stabbing people).
What I’m saying is, this kind of thing is common.
One word is to get bored that's causing issues.
sık - to bore sik - to fuck
So if I write "sikildim" to say "I got bored", it actually becomes "I got fucked".
One way around it to capitalize. SIKILDIM is "I got bored" but now you are yelling. Typing "sıkıldım" is a hassle on a US keyboard though.
The problem was that Emine's cell phone was not localized properly for Turkish and did not have the letter <ı>; when it displayed Ramazan's message, it replaced the <ı>s with <i>s.
There might be some truth to it but it does not make much sense. Technically, ı would probably show up as □ instead of i if the phone had a hard time displaying it.
There is also the suffix not matching that change: sıkışınca vs sikişince. A becomes E in that suffix when you switch from ı to i. Even if the phone fucked up, "sikişinca" would look weird.
Shane there was no concept of self defence.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/apps/design/global...
twitch
A classic which breaks lots of applications is the difference between number format "1,234.5" and "1.234,5" (some European countries).
Very expensive if you fuck up. Very embarrassing if you fuck up, too.
The extra irony is that me and my colleagues live in a country that actually has this kind of locale, but no one in the entire extended team was using it, everyone uses a US locale.
Several years ago we had issues with certification of our game on PS4 because the capitalization on Sony's Turkish translation for "wireless controller" was wrong. The problem being that Turkish dotless I. What was the cause? Some years prior we had had issues with internal system strings (read: stringified enums) breaking on certain international PC's because they were being upper/lowercased using locale-specific capitalization rules. As a quick fix, the choice was made then to change the culture info to invariant globally across the entire game. This of course meant that all strings were now being upper/lowercased according to English rules, including user-facing UI strings. Hence Turkish strings mixing up dotted and dotless I's in several places. The solution? We just pre-uppercased that one "wireless controller" term in our localization sheet, because that was the only bit of text Sony cared about. An ugly fix and we really should have gone through the code to properly separate system strings from UI texts, but it got the job done.
So by alternating case you end up with ß→SS→ss or ẞ→ß→SS. Certainly has potential to screw with naive attempts at case-insensitive comparison via case folding. Then again, Unicode adopting 'ẞ' as the upper of 'ß' in some future version would probably only increase that potential further.
I'm interested to hear from people dealing with a lot of German text how much of a problem this is in practice.
The ‘ß’ is a ligature of the old ‘long s’ [1] which was written ‘ſ’ (because it’s common in old texts there is a Unicode code point for it).
This letter has no upper case version. Capitalized words starting with a long ‘ſ’ always used ‘S’.
Now in German language, to make this lowercase long ‘ſ’ a sharp ‘s’, ‘ſ’ followed by ‘z’ was written: ‘ſz’.
And these two were often typeset as a ligature, ‘ß’, for esthetic reasons.
That ligature then became the common case and eventually a letter recognized in German-speaking countries.
As a hypothetic analogy, imagine a ‘ll’ ligature, as in ‘fallacy’, becoming an English letter – by some twist of history.
As we saw, these were lowercase letters. And there is no uppercase version of ‘ſ’.
So the uppercase ‘ẞ’ that is now official recognized and has a Unicode code point should not look like this.
It's an absolute eye saw because all that was done was somehow make the letter look a bit more like a capital.
But it's nature of being two lowercase letters, originally, still makes it stand out like an eye sore for people with a background in typography, like myself.
IMHO It should look like ‘SZ’ (or ‘SS’), made into a ligature.
And as a type designer, I'd either refrain from filling that code point in a font I design, to protest this, or do the above: create a ligature of ‘SZ’ or ‘SS’ (alternative) and put that there.
First of all, 'ß' was a ligature -- a long time ago. It is a letter today. Disassembling it according to its original construction makes no sense today for any kind of argument about typesetting or Unicode. Further, 'ſ' is not used today in German at all, except for meta discussions like this or to stress how things used to be spelled. It makes no sense to mention it unless you are talking about font design or historic use of German (and other languages, for that matter).
Also, if you do mention it for the sake of talking about font design, in Latin fonts, 'ſs' is actually the basis for the design of 'ß', not 'ſz' -- that was mainly done in Blackletter/Fraktur when the 'z' looked different, maybe a bit like 'ʒ' (I used Unicode's'ezh' here hoping it looks right) so that old style 'ß' looks like a ligature of 'ſʒ'. This can still be seen occasionally, e.g., on Berlin street name signs. It is obsolete for most fonts today (although I quite like it).
Moreover, there is an upper case letter for 'ß': 'ẞ'. And it has existed in fine typology way before being adopted into Unicode. Actually, it's existence was probably the reason why it is now in Unicode. The official German rules are now: either use 'SS' or 'ẞ' for uppercase 'ß'. Most Germans probably do not even know that 'ẞ' exists as a choice today, although it was used on 'DER GROẞE DUDEN' even before Unicode existed.
And finally, how a glyph is designed is not necessarily decided on whether historic parts of an ancient ligature had upper case variants. So that 'ſ' has no upper case equivalent is irrelevant for both Unicode and type design.
But as a font designer or anything else, you can protest. No problem. Everyone has the right to protest. But please don't spill the Internet with wrong information, as there is enough of it already.
And I don't think 'SS'<->'ß' is similar to the Turkish 'I with/without dot' problem, because the default Unicode mapping for 'ß' is correct in all languages, while the Turkish (and also Azerbaijani) problem is correct or broken depending on language setting. This is way more problematic because an assumed universal equivalence does not hold. And you need to carefully distinguish whether a string is language specific or not, e.g., path names or IDs in data bases, etc.
It may be a typographical abomination, but it's an intentional representation of that particular typographical abomination, just as the ox head in "A" intentionally has its horns pointing down.
I don't know if this counts as "correct" but it's still very confusing.
>>> "ß".upper()
'SS'
>>> "ß".upper().lower()
'ss'
>>> "ẞ".lower()
'ß'
>>> "ẞ".lower().upper()
'SS'
>>> "ẞ".lower().upper().lower()
'ss'I assume you mean "eyesore"
Problem with the current widely used approach of having global application wide locale setting is that most applications contain mix of User facing strings and technical code interacting with file formats or remote APIs. Doesn't matter if you set it to current language (or just let operating system set it) or force it to language independent locale, sooner or later something is going to break.
If you are lucky a programming language might provide some locale independent string functions, but using them is often clunky and and unlikely to be done consistently across whole code base and all the third party libraries. It's easier to do things correctly if you are forced to declare the intention from the start and any mixing of different context requires an explicit conversion.
As a developer, if some code works perfectly on your own computer, the journey has barely just begun.
sebstefan•4h ago
lifthrasiir•4h ago
sebstefan•3h ago
alexey-salmin•3h ago
thaumasiotes•52m ago
This isn't honored; we have many Unicode code points that look identical by definition and differ only in their secret semantics, but all of those points are in violation of the principles of Unicode. The Turkish 'i' is doing the right thing.
alexey-salmin•29m ago
E.g. Cyrillic "а" looks the same as Latin "a" most of the time, they both are distant descendants of the Phoenician 𐤀, but they are two different letters now. I'm very glad they have different code points, it would be a nightmare otherwise.
zokier•2h ago
sebstefan•1h ago
makeitdouble•3h ago
It's a potential issue already depending on your script, and CJK also has this funny full English alphabet but all in double-width characters that makes it PITA for people who can't distinguish the two. But having it on a character as common as "i" would feel specially hellish to me.
sebstefan•3h ago
There's already this problem for cyrillic 'e' and latin 'e' and hundreds of other characters
People use it to create lookalike URLs and phish people
https://www.pcmag.com/news/chrome-blocks-crafty-url-phishing...
makeitdouble•1h ago
Turkish isn't on a fully separate script, most letters are standard ascii and only a few are special (it's closer to French or German with the accentuated characters), so you don't have the explicit switch, it's always mixed.
sebstefan•57m ago
alexey-salmin•3h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotted_I_(Cyrillic)
jeroenhd•3h ago
The problem is that uppercasing the dotted i outputs a different character depending on your current locale. Using case-insensitive equality checks also break this way (I==i, except in a Turkish locale, so `QUIT ilike quit` is false).
rob74•3h ago
tmtvl•3h ago
What sebstefan is asking for is a Unicode character which is the non-capitalised form of Latin Capital Letter I With Dot Above (U+0130) which always gets capitalised to U+0130 and which U+0130 gets downcased to.
mrspuratic•51m ago
elevatortrim•3h ago
1. Have two "i" characters on Turkish keyboards, one to use when writing in English, one in Turkish. Sounds difficult to get used to. Always need to be conscious about whether writing an "English i", or a "Turkish i".
2. "i" key is interpreted as English "i" when in English locale, as a special unicode character when in Turkish locale. This would be a nightmare as you would then always have to be conscious of your locale. Writing in English? Switch to English locale. Writing code? Switch to English locale. Writing a Turkish string literal in code? Switch to Turkish, then switch back. It would need to be a constant switching between back and forth even though both are Latin alphabet.
alexey-salmin•3h ago
But you have to do that anyway to be able to produce the correct capitalized version: an "English I" or a "Turkish İ".
daveliepmann•2h ago
The person you're replying to is pointing out that differentiating English-i from Türkish-i requires some other unwieldy workaround. Would you expect manufacturers to add a third key for English i, or for people with Turkish keyboards to use a modifier key (or locale switching) to distinguish i from i? All workarounds seem extraordinarily unlikely.
elevatortrim•2h ago
Yes, there are two keys, but their function is not to write the character as a "Turkish i" and an "English i". These keys are necessary because there are 4 variations, that need 2 keys to write with caps lock on and off:
Key 1 - Big and small Turkish "I": Caps Lock On: I Caps Lock Off: ı
Key 2 - Big and small Turkish "İ": Caps Lock On: İ Caps Lock Off: i
For small "Turkish i" and "English i" to be different characters, there would need to be a third key.
sebstefan•2h ago
elevatortrim•2h ago
JimDabell•2h ago
Isn’t this already the case with other languages? For instance, the same key on the keyboard produces a semicolon (;) in English and a Greek question mark (;) in Greek. These are distinct characters that are rendered the same (and also an easy way to troll a developer who uses an editor that doesn’t highlight non-ASCII confusables).