A team at the University of Calgary is currently recruiting participants with Major Depressive Disorder and Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder:
https://research.ucalgary.ca/participate/clinical-trial-eval...
https://research.ucalgary.ca/participate/focused-study-fmt-o...
I don't fall under the umbrella of Major Depressive or OCD but if they were doing trials to help anxiety or something I would probably sign up
So introducing new microbiota won’t solve the problem. The theory that needs to be tested is that we know microbiota can switch SAD on, but does removal of said microbiota turn it off? It needs to be an antibiotic cleansing. It can even be DIY. People can try this on themselves. I think the unknown factor here though is whether or not a persons diet is introducing the SAD causing microbiota.
There are cases where things do enter the back door but I think that’s just humans getting creative and it wasn’t designed for entry.
I learned later that this is pretty dangerous to attempt, since you're very likely to give yourself c diff or some other infection and end up with persistent IBS before you land on a good microbiome.
But does the system have hysteresis? Can the flip be switched the other way? Introduce antibiotics to wipe out all the microbiota and does the SAD improve?
There can be human trials for this given that antibiotics are approved low risk medicines. Clinical trials with antibiotics to clean out and reset the microbiome along with strict diets in attempt to prevent reintroduction of said microbiota.
It can even be DIY.
If you look closely enough, even individuals aren't the true units of evolution, for the same reason; competing alleles is where the real action is.
It's only when an effect causes death or infertility prior to normal reproductive phases that we can really say it has a direct evolutionary pressure. Anything that happens later is always going to be through secondary, social effects on how their condition supports or hinders their offspring from reproducing further generations.
E pur si muove.
IMO the simpler hypothesis here is that this isn’t anything adaptive, it’s just another example of how biology is like spaghetti code; changing one chemical signal will affect an essentially random set of downstream systems, some of which can be causally connected to psychology/behavior.
So, is microbiome-mediated social anxiety selected for as an advantageous trait for societies subject to communicable diseases and the travails of nomadism? Maybe. Did YOUR microbiome-mediated social anxiety arise because it was advantageous for your community? Probably impossible to say.
Also, a hole in GP's logic: you would expect protective social anxiety to arise in people whose situation hasn't much changed except that they've encountered people whose has (as with sedentary villagers encountering nomads who may or may not be about to ransack their settlement).
No, you would not expect that. If rats that self-isolate when their gut micro-biomes change avoid diseases that other rats get afflicted with, then evolution will lead to the mechanism spreading through the rats over time. The rats do not need to know why self-isolating helps, they do not need to even know that self-isolating helps, and they do not need to be in the position where it would help the most.
Nothing you said contradicts this, and I'm not sure how to square the circle, even though microbiome-mediated behavior as an explanation for broad, otherwise irrational behavior patterns is attractive.
That's not a competing hypothesis. Obviously the change to the gut affects other things, some of which happen to impact psychology and behavior.
The question is why does this particular change to gut microbiome have such a similar impact on two different species that diverged many tens of millions of years ago? "It just does" is not a very satisfying answer.
And randomly eating healthy stuff is probably not going to shift your biome in a particular direction nor eliminate the cause of biome issues.
I eat healthy including a lot of whole fruit, nuts, dried fruits, dark green veggies and grass finished meats and there are still times I have my biome be a bit off.
I do appreciate the quantitative precision at the end of your last sentence.
It's a very fair and valid question as to whether a probiotic supplement:
A) Survives being packaged and stored in a warehouse for an indeterminate amount of time B) Being shipped in the back of a truck/airplane C) If the bacteria is still alive whether it can make it through the GI tract to even have any effect whatsoever
I don't know whether this has been studied. I know Consumer Labs does yearly tests on various supplements, probiotics included, but it's a subscription service and you need to subscribe to see the results. I have subscribed to them in the past and found their testing and articles quite helpful. I
In their tests, ConsumerLab found that the number of viable cells in probiotic products ranged from 1 million to 225 billion per recommended serving.
Additionally, some products were contaminated with harmful bacteria, such as Pseudomonas aeruginosa, which poses a risk to immunocompromised individuals and infants.
The company also noted that the enteric coating of some products did not function properly, potentially affecting the delivery of the probiotics to the gut. (Brave AI Search summary of the article below) [1]
ConsumerLab Tests Reveal Best Probiotic Supplements and Those With Quality Issues https://www.consumerlab.com/news/best-probiotic-supplements/...
There is an ton of probiotic research that shows probiotics can survive transit to the gut and reproduce there.
Even without probiotic supplmentaion, you microbiome absolutely can and will change over time.
Most probiotics I've taken did nothing. The only ones that seem to actually work for me are these: https://drohhiraprobiotics.com/
Not sure why it works, but anecdotally, they do.
Other things that have helped significantly – cutting out alcohol.
But Metamucil changed my life dramatically over a span of a few weeks. Never had the type of symptoms it’s indicated for, which everyone I mention it to just assumes. But it fixed me somehow.
Acetylated cellulose suppresses mass through commensals consuming carbohydrates https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44219171
I can also attest to having my first alcoholic drink in a while and it screwing me up for a week.
I remember speaking to someone who had the suggestion to try fermenting food with probiotic supplements, as that would be the only realistic way to know if they were still alive.
There are vendors that do sell probiotic supplements that come shipped in dry ice that people with Crohn's disease & other GI ailments. I don't remember the name of the company that sold them though.
But, I agree that yogurt or saurkraut/kimchi and other fermented products would be a good way to get some gut bacteria. Those would be great to use after you came off antibiotics, but it wouldn't necessarily help with genital mental health/anxiety (as far as I'm aware).
Interestingly, yeast has neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter precursors in it such as tryptophan and serotonin. [1]
Having said all that, I decided to look up the "mood enhancing" probiotic strains I've seen being sold in OTC supplements. The two strains I see are Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52 and Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175 (there may be others I'm unaware of). The studies are quite small, unfortunately. (I didn't read all of them though) [2] [3] [4] [5].
Finally, this is quite a unique term I haven't come across: Psychobiotics!
Psychobiotics are probiotics that have the characteristics of modulating central nervous system (CNS) functions or reconciled actions by the gut–brain axis (GBA) through neural, humoral and metabolic pathways to improve gastrointestinal activity as well as anxiolytic and even antidepressant abilities. [6]
[1] Melatonin and Other Tryptophan Metabolites Produced by Yeasts: Implications in Cardiovascular and Neurodegenerative Diseases https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4718080/
[2] Assessment of psychotropic-like properties of a probiotic formulation (Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175) in rats and human subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20974015/
[3] Probiotics Promising for Mild to Moderate Depression https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/881877
[4] The effect of Lactobacillus helveticus fermented milk on sleep and health perception in elderly subjects https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17851460/
[5] One Giant Leap from Mouse to Man: The Microbiota–Gut–Brain Axis in Mood Disorders and Translational Challenges Moving towards Human Clinical Trials https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8840472/
[6] Exploring the Potential of Lactobacillus helveticus R0052 and Bifidobacterium longum R0175 as Promising Psychobiotics Using SHIME https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10056475/
Probiotics in pill/capsule form are generally freeze dried, so they are much less temperature sensitive than live bacteria.
And overall I'm a bit hesitant about consuming too many strains at once.
So far I've been having success with S. boulardii CNCM I-745 (which is actually a probiotic yeast) and I'm trying out L. rhamnosus GG.
Bifidobacterium infantis 35624 also looks interesting.
Since the advent of "gluten free" foods, specifically for coeliacs, the fact foods get advertised as "X free" leads a percentage of the population to believe that X is therefore bad and should be avoided for as-a-general-rule health reasons rather than health reasons limited to those who get complications as a result of X.
I posted some studies above about two probiotic strains that have specifically been studied for mood enhancement aka "psychobiotics": Lactobacillus helveticus Rosell-52 and Bifidobacterium longum Rosell-175.
Caveat: I have never been diagnosed with an anxiety disorder, so things may different in that case.
Maybe the causation is reversed: people who go out more are more frequently infected with all kinds of bugs, from getting too intimate with strangers to eating stuff that was prepared by someone not too assiduous in their hand washing - a sibling reply mentioning fecal microbiota transplant comes to mind
I know this article is about bugs that cause anxiety, but maybe they just lose the competition in a gut environment with the social bugs
People who stay at home are less infected, thus the correlation with these gut specimens
Thus, I wholly believe this study.
I mostly eat kale for vegetables, this also helps with subclinical insulin resistance and inflammation. I think roasting vegetables may end up being too sweet.
I did an extended 5 day water fast to kick start the microbiome changes I undertook it as an experiment and the effectiveness in lifting brain fog suggested that it likely had a microbiome component.
You could use a rule of thumb that hard/aged cheeses are low lactose. But there's outliers like brie/camembert that are very low lactose even when relatively fresh.
What could be different?
Do you mean that relative amount of lactose? I believe it's that's not different in the raw material.[0]
[0] https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/goat-milk-versus-cow-milk-a-co...
"" The water fast lasts for 24–72 hours. You should not water fast for longer than this without medical supervision because of health risks. "" https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/water-fasting
In my experience an apple = a bar of chocolate, has the exact same effect, no difference except maybe a bar of chocolate is slightly faster acting. Immediate brain fog, almost like being psuedo-drunk.
I too gave up on fruits after deluding myself for a long time that an apple a day is somehow healthy for me. In hindsight it's crystal clear addiction. I was looking forward the entire day to that moment where I'd 'allow' myself the fruit. I was frequently unable to stop eating after the determined portion.
If you scroll through my previous message history I cover this topic quite a bit, you can also email me. In general terms, I think hEDS is far more common than doctors do, and is likely caused by TNXB SNPs. TNXB SPNs are overlooked because these are too common to cause the 'rare' condition - but if you drop the prior assumption of rarity then a very different picture is painted. It appears to me that the only difference between hEDS and far more common Generalized Joint Hypermobility (GJH) is severity and the stochastic diagnosis that this difference causes. The prior assumption of rarity has informed the diagnostic test so the diagnostic tests reproduce this assumption and in my view have an extremely high false negative rate. If using other proxy stats like the rate of hypermobility in Long Covid from the work of Dr Jessica Eccles it's pretty clear that that prior assumption of rarity is wildly inaccurate. I was able to figure this out because I have experience as an applied researcher and machine learning, having spent half a lifetime reading papers I've developed a bit of a nose for the sorts of mistakes that academic researchers tend to make.
There is a meaningful amount of scientific literature connecting fructose and inflammation.
The AVERAGE human can only digest about 30g of fructose a day. Some substantially more, some substantially less.
A can of soda or three apples is about 30g of fructose.
Inflammation (high- and low grade)then being a second step linking to anxiety.
Sounds reasonable. But i have had a hard time finding evidence verifying that hypotesis.
Eating fiber with any carbohydrates reduces the absorption rate. It's partly why eating an Apple is better for you than eating a lolly despite both being high in sugar.
You're welcome.
...while actively competing in endurance events. They don't do this while sitting on the couch in the evening. And it's very specifically only endurance trained athletes who do this, sprinters would never need to consume that much sugar.
It's a valid point though, a sugary snack or sports drink directly before hitting the gym for a hard workout session is probably fine, as long as your blood wasn't already saturated with glucose from earlier sugary foods, and as long as you don't have insulin resistance.
There's a complicated relationship, according to this meta-analysis. Eating sugar in isolation from other sources of nutrition is a risk factor. Eating fruit, or eating sweetened foods with redeeming qualities like yoghurt and wholegrain cereal, is probably inversely correlated (with lower confidence). These seem to be true even when controlling for BMI.
Looking at the meta-analysis, it's hard to say there's no link. The authors suggest that fibre might mitigate the impact, and that adding sugar to otherwise healthy foods might encourage higher consumption of them.
I swear that a 4+ week coffee and caffeinated holiday improved emotional regulation and turns down OCD behaviours and anxiety.
Not sure if this is microbiota-related or related to down-regulation of neuroreceptors activated by coffee compounds.
I’ve heard arguments such as “well… caffeine is cleared within hours so a weeks-long effect is placebo”. Say what you want.
While I never pinned down the cause exactly, my talk therapist and I came to the realization that some meals would trigger it. Usually those meals were obviously bad for my health, so I started avoiding them.
> This might sound weird but I can "physically feel" in my head a certain anxiety
Why I commented. DPDR is in the same box as anxiety and, yeah, I could literally feel this weird pressure in my head. An actual physical sensation. Seems like we had different cause and side effects but it's so good to read there's someone else out there.
Glad you found something that worked for you. There's so much we don't know about our bodies.
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[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization-derealizatio...
The problem, of course, was the danger. I could die within minutes if I ate fermented food without taking the antidote I always carried. Problem with that was the risk was almost the same if I took the antidote if it wasn't needed.
I therefore only stayed on the meds for maybe 6 months (during which time I went from 150lbs to 225lbs).
I've never found an alternative substitute. I've taken meds that help lessen the anxiety, but never found anything else that literally changed who I was (making me an incredibly social person).
PS: I think it was Nardil. I wasn't having any issues with depression. The doctor was specializing social anxiety and in particular in the use of Nardil to help. He also told me that the chemical balance in my brain indicated that, without Nardil, I would almost certainly become a hermit in my 70s. I'm 72 and his prognosis was spot on.
I've never heard of Nardil, but I'll have to look into it.
I struggled with anxiety and depression, treated with anti-depressants and such
After years of that, a doctor suggested I test for ADHD and I got medicated for that after the test was positive
After being medicated for ADHD, I had much less anxiety and basically no depression. Turns out that both Anxiety and Depression are potentially comorbid with unmedicated ADHD
It might be worth asking about. It could be that you need stimulants, not antidepressants
I'm sorry, I'm not any kind of medical expert so I can't really say anything useful here
If I did have to guess, I would say that Anxiety, Depression, or all sorts of other things can stand on their own, or be a comorbid symptom caused by something else
In my case it seems like my Anxiety and Depression were at least somewhat caused by my underlying ADHD. Treating ADHD helped me with the anxiety and depression at the same time
But just because it can be this way doesn't mean it has to be. It could be there is something else underlying your other symptoms. Or they just aren't comorbid and need separate treatment
I don't know. I'm sorry to hear you still have some trouble with things though. I hope you keep going and figure them out
The placebo effect can be very real...
And self-fulfilling predictions by authority figures can also be powerful...
Lack of neurotransmitters being produced in the gut due to microbiome issues is maybe the closest to a real "imbalance" -- like with the original article. Example: "How Your Gut Health Affects Your Brain: The Mind-Altering Power of Your Microbiome" https://www.sciencenewstoday.org/how-your-gut-health-affects... "Your gut microbes can produce neurotransmitters like serotonin, dopamine, gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA), and acetylcholine—all of which are crucial for brain function. In fact, more than 90% of the body’s serotonin is produced in the gut, not the brain. This has profound implications for mood and emotional health."
Lots more health and wellness ideas collected by me here: https://github.com/pdfernhout/High-Performance-Organizations...
Good luck finding things that work for you -- assuming you are not happy just the way you are. "I like you just the way you are" - Mr. Rodgers https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPDTpqtmzPQ
Couldn't this be the easier explanation? People at that age tend to move away from home, go to college or start work - all big changes, all highly social and potentially stressful changes. Mental health issues leading on from this is understandable and anecdotally I've saw it in several friends.
and then if the research is farther along:
In <other animal>: blah blah
and finally if ever
In humans: blah blah blah.
I keep reading storie about what happens to mice in studies but I am far more interested when the research has been able to get to human trials and results are coming in.
Your guts are VERY tied to your brain, and your gut biome WILL change if you are stressed enough. When your biome goes off, LOTS of bad things can happen to you.
I was in constant pain and had IBS-C for two years until I learned how to manage by stress. But it came at a terrible cost of having to flounder a bunch of opportunities as a result.
If you have lower-left gut pain, talk to your doctor, but for me it was all stress and anxiety.
I'm really curious whether this kind of research could lead to something beyond the usual therapy or medication. It would be amazing to see new treatments emerge that are based on the microbiome.
If future treatments can target the gut instead of relying only on willpower or medication, that might be a gentler and more effective path.
bloqs•7mo ago