Thank you reading specs.
Thank you making tool.
Gave it up because it turns out the little things are just a pain. Formatting dates, showing article numbers and counts etc.
Our mobile and web portal was made of j2ee services producing XML which were then transformed by XSLT into HTML or WAP
At the time it blew me away that they expected web designers to work in an esoteric language like that
But it was also nicely separated
me come to hn, see xml build system, me happy, much smiling, me hit up arrow, me thank good stranger.
XSLT controls the styling, Lua the running functions. When Lua adjusts a visible thing, it generates XSLT.
"FrameXML" is a thin Lua wrapper around the base XSLT.
Let's not romanticize XML. I wrote a whole app that used XSL:T about 25 years ago (it was a military contract and for some reason that required the use of an XML database, don't ask me). Yes it had some advantages over JSON but XSL:T was a total pain to work with at scale. It's a functional language, so you have to get into that mindset first. Then it's actually multiple functional languages composed together, so you have to learn XPath too, which is only a bit more friendly than regular expressions. The language is dominated by hacks working around the fact that it uses XML as its syntax. And there are (were?) no useful debuggers or other tooling. IIRC you didn't even have any equivalent of printf debugging. If you screwed up in some way you just got the wrong output.
Compared to that React is much better. The syntax is much cleaner and more appropriate, you can mix imperative and FP, you have proper debugging and profiling tools, and it supports incremental re-transform so it's actually useful for an interactive UI whereas XSL:T never was so you needed JS anyway.
This gives me new appreciation for how powerful XSLT is, and how glad I am that I can use almost anything else to get the same end results. Give me Jinja or Mustache any day. Just plain old s-exprs for that matter. Just please don’t ever make me write XML with XML again.
However, it was much simpler imperative language with some macros.
XSLT is more like a set of queries competing to run against a document, and it's easy to make something incomprehensibly complex if you're not careful.
https://github.com/captn3m0/boardgame-research
It also feels very arcane - hard to debug and understand unfortunately.
I'm probably guilty of some of the bad practice: I have fond memories of (ab)using XSLT includes back in the day with PHP stream wrappers to have stuff like `<xsl:include href="mycorp://invoice/1234">`
This may be out-of-date bias but I'm still a little uneasy letting the browser do the locally, just because it used to be a minefield of incompatibility
If your document has namespaces, xpath has to reflect that. You can either tank it or explicitly ignore namespaces by foregoing the shorthands and checking `local-name()`.
/*bookstore/*book/*title
its been some godawful mess like
/*[name()='bookstore']/*[name()='book']/*[name()='title']
... I guess because they couldn't bear to have it just match on text and it had to be tethered to some namespace stuff that most people dont bother with. A lot of XML is ad-hoc without a namespace defined anywhere
Its like
Me: Hello Xpath, heres an XML document, please find all the bookstore/book/title tags
Xpath: *gasps* Sir, I couldn't possibly look for those tags unless you tell me which namespace we are in. Are you some sort of deviant?
Me: oh ffs *googles xpath name() syntax*
XML is a markup language system. You typically have a document, and various parts of it can be marked up with metadata, to an arbitrary degree.
JSON is a data format. You typically have a fixed schema and things are located within it at known positions.
Both of these have use-cases where they are better than the other. For something like a web page, you want a markup language that you progressively render by stepping through the byte stream. For something like a config file, you want a data format where you can look up specific keys.
Generally speaking, if you’re thinking about parsing something by streaming its contents and reacting to what you see, that’s the kind of application where XML fits. But if you’re thinking about parsing something by loading it into memory and looking up keys, then that’s the kind of application where JSON fits.
XPath is kind of fine. It's hard to remember all the syntax but I can usually get there with a bit of experimentation.
XSLT is absolutely insane nonsense and needs to die in a fire.
Last thing I really did with XML was a technology called EXI, a transfer method that converted an XML document into a compressed binary data stream. Because translating a data structure to ASCII, compressing it, sending it over HTTP etc and doing the same thing in reverse is a bit silly. At this point protobuf and co are more popular, but imagine if XML stayed around. It's all compatible standards working with each other (in my idealized mind), whereas there's a hard barrier between e.g. protobuf/grpc and JSON APIs. Possibly for the better?
XSLT technically would make sense the more you're using large amounts of boilerplate XML literals in your template because it's using XML itself as language syntax. But even though using XML as language meta-syntax, it has lots of microsyntax ie XPath, variables, parameters that you need to cram into XML attributes with the usual quoting restrictions and lack of syntax highlighting. There's really nothing in XSLT that couldn't be implemtented better using a general-purpose language with proper testing and library infrastructure such as Prolog/Datalog (in fact, DSSSL, XSLT's close predecessor for templating full SGML/HTML and not just the XML subset, was based on Scheme) or just, you know, vanilla JavaScript which was introduced for DOM manipulation.
Note maintainance of libxml2/libxslt is currently understaffed [1], and it's a miracle to me XSLT (version v1.0 from 1999) is shipping as a native implementation in browsers still unlike eg. PDF.js.
I learned quickly to leave this particular experience off of my resume as sundry DoD contractors contacted me on LinkedIn for my "XML expertise" to participate in various documentation modernization projects.
The next time you sigh as you use JSX to iterate over an array of Typescript interfaces deserialized from a JSON response remember this post - you could be me doing the same in XSLT :-).
1: https://github.com/pjlsergeant/xslt-fever-dream/blob/main/ut...
2: https://github.com/pjlsergeant/xslt-fever-dream/blob/main/ut...
3: https://github.com/pjlsergeant/xslt-fever-dream/blob/main/ut...
After spending months working on my development machine, I deployed the website to my VPS, to realize to my utter dismay that the XSLT module was not activated on the PHP configuration. I had to ask the (small) company to update their PHP installation just for me, which they promptly did.
A few years ago, I decided to style my own feeds, and ended up with this: https://chrismorgan.info/blog/tags/fun/feed.xml. https://chrismorgan.info/atom.xsl is pretty detailed, I don’t think you’ll find one with more comprehensive feature support. (I wrote a variant of it for RSS too, since I was contemplating podcasts at the time and almost all podcast software is stupid and doesn’t support Atom, and it’s all Apple’s fault: https://temp.chrismorgan.info/2022-05-10-rss.xsl.)
At the time, I strongly considered making the next iteration of my website serve all blog stuff as Atom documents—post lists as feeds, and individual pages as entries. In the end, I’ve decided to head in a completely different direction (involving a lot of handwriting!), but I don’t think the idea is bad.
I updated an XSLT system to work with then latest Firefox a couple of years ago. We have scripts in a different directory to the documents being transformed which requires a security setting to be changed in Firefox to make it work, I don't know if an equivalent thing is needed for Chrome.
I would rather that they introduced support for v3, as that would make it easier to serving static webpages with native support for templating.
It wasn't that bad. We used tomcat and some apache libraries for this. Worked fine.
Our CMS was spitting out XML files with embedded HTML that were very cachable. We handled personalization and rendering to HTML (and js) server side with a caching proxy. The XSL transformation ran after the cache and was fast enough to keep up with a lot of traffic. Basically the point of the XML here was to put all the ready HTML in blobs and all the stuff that needed personalization as XML tags. So the final transform was pretty fast. The XSL transformer was heavily optimized and the trick was to stream its output straight to the response output stream and not do in memory buffering of the full content. That's still a good trick BTW. that most frameworks do wrong out of the box because in memory buffering is easier for the user. It can make a big difference for large responses.
These days, you can run whatever you want in a browser via wasm of course. But back then javascript was a mess and designers delivered photoshop files, at best. Which you then had to cut up into frames and tables and what not. I remember Google Maps and Gmail had just come out and we were doing a pretty javascript heavy UI for our CMS and having to support both Netscape and Internet Explorer, which both had very different ideas about how to do stuff.
You needed the jvm and saxon and that was about it...
1. the browsers were inconsistent in 1990-2000 so we started using JS to make them behave the same
2. meanwhile the only thing we needed were good CSS styles which were not yet present and consistent behaviour
3. over the years the browsers started behaving the same (mainly because Highlander rules - there can be only one, but Firefox is also coping well)
4. but we already got used to having frameworks that would make the pages look the same on all browsers. Also the paradigm was switched to have json data rendered
5. at the current technology we could cope with server generated old-school web pages because they would have low footprint, work faster and require less memory.
Why do I say that? Recently we started working on a migration from a legacy system. Looks like 2000s standard page per HTTP request. Every action like add remove etc. requires a http refresh. However it works much faster than our react system. Because:
1. Nowadays the internet is much faster
2. Phones have a lot of memory which is wasted by js frameworks
3. in the backend all's almost same old story - CRUD CRUD and CRUD (+ pagination, + transactions)
unless you have a high latency internet connection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44326816
-- edit --
by the way in 2005 I programmed using very funny PHP framework PRADO that was sending every change in the UI to the server. Boy it was slow and server heavy. This was the direction we should have never gone...
not a good example. i can't find it now, but there was a story/comment about a realtor app that people used to sell houses. often when they were out with a potential buyer they had bad internet access and loading new data and pictures for houses was a pain. it wasn't until they switched to using a frontend framework to preload everything with the occasional updates that the app became usable.
low latency affects any interaction with a site. even hackernews is a pain to read over low latency and would improve if new comments where loaded in the background. the problem creeps up on you faster than you think.
Then again, it was a long time. Maybe it's me misremembering.
This was maybe 2008?
2002, I was using “JSRS”, and returning http 204/no content, which causes the browser to NOT refresh/load the page.
Just for small interactive things, like a start/pause button for scheduled tasks. The progress bar etc.
But yeah, in my opinion we lost about 15 years of proper progress.
The network is the computer came true
The SUN/JEE model is great.
It’s just that monopolies stifle progress and better standards.
Standards are pretty much dead, and everything is at the application layer.
That said.. I think XSLT sucks, although I haven’t touched it in almost 20 years. The projects I was on, there was this designer/xslt guru. He could do anything with it.
XPath is quite nice though
Internet Explorer 6 was released in 2001 and didn’t drop below 3% worldwide until 2015. So that’s a solid 14 years of paralysis in browser compatibility.
Internet Explorer didn’t support DOM events, so addEventListener wasn’t cross-browser compatible. A lot of people put work in to come up with an addEvent that worked consistently cross-browser.
The DOMContentLoaded event didn’t exist, only the load event. The load event wasn’t really suitable for setting up things like event handlers because it would wait until all external resources like images had been loaded too, which was a significant delay during which time the user could be interacting with the page. Getting JavaScript to run consistently after the DOM was available, but without waiting for images was a bit tricky.
These kinds of things were iterated on in a series of blog posts from several different web developers. One blogger would publish one solution, people would find shortcomings with it, then another blogger would publish a version that fixed some things, and so on.
This is an example of the kind of thing that was happening, and you’ll note that it refers to work on this going back to 2001:
https://robertnyman.com/2006/08/30/event-handling-in-javascr...
When jQuery came along, it was really trying to achieve two things: firstly, incorporating things like this to help browser compatibility; and second, to provide a “fluent” API where you could chain API calls together.
DOM manipulation of that sort is JS dependent, of course, but I think considering language features and the environment, like the DOM, to be separate-but-related concerns is valid. There were less kitchen-sink-y libraries that only concentrated on language features or specific DOM features. Some may even consider a few parts in a third section: the standard library, though that feature set might be rather small (not much more than the XMLHTTPRequest replacement/wrappers?) to consider its own thing.
> For stuff which didn't need JS at all, there also shouldn't be much need for JQuery.
That much is mostly true, as it by default didn't do anything to change non-scripted pages. Some polyfills for static HTML (for features that were inconsistent, or missing entirely in, usually, old-IE) were implemented as jQuery plugins though.
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[1] Though I don't think they were called that back then, the term coming later IIRC.
[2] Method chaining³, better built-in searching and filtering functions⁴, and so forth.
[3] This divides opinions a bit though was generally popular, some other libraries did the same, others tried different approaches.
[4] Which we ended up coding repeatedly in slightly different ways when needed otherwise.
jQuery took over very quickly though for all of those.
Almost sure it was available on IE6. But even if not, you could emulate it using hidden iframes to call pages which embedded some javascript interacting with the main page. I still have fond memories of using mootools for lightweight nice animations and less fond ones of dojo.
HTML was the original standard, not JS. HTML was evolving early on, but the web was much more standard than it was today.
Early-mid 1990s web was awesome. HTML served HTTP, and pages used header tags, text, hr, then some backgound color variation and images. CGI in a cgi-bin dir was used for server-side functionality, often written in Perl or C: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Gateway_Interface
Back then, if you learned a little HTML, you could serve up audio, animated gifs, and links to files, or Apache could just list files in directories to browse like a fileserver without any search. People might get a friend to let them have access to their server and put content up in it or university, etc. You might be on a server where they had a cgi-bin script or two to email people or save/retrieve from a database, etc. There was also a mailto in addition to href for the a (anchor) tag for hyperlinks so you could just put you email address there.
Then a ton of new things were appearing. PhP on server-side. JavaScript came out but wasn’t used much except for a couple of party tricks. ColdFusion on server-side. Around the same time was VBScript which was nice but just for IE/Windows, but it was big. Perl then PhP were also big on server-side. If you installed Java you could use Applets which were neat little applications on the page. Java Web Server came out serverside and there were JSPs. Java Tomcat came out on server-side. ActionScript came out to basically replace VBScript but do it on serverside with ASPs. VBScript support went away.
During this whole time, JavaScript had just evolved into more party tricks and thing like form validation. It was fun, but it was PhP, ASP, JSP/Struts/etc. serverside in early 2000s, with Rails coming out and ColdFusion going away mostly. Facebook was PhP mid-2000s, and LAMP stack, etc. People breaking up images using tables, CSS coming out with slow adoption. It wasn’t until mid to later 2000s until JavaScript started being used for UI much, and Google’s fostering of it and development of v8 where it was taken more seriously because it was slow before then. And when it finally got big, there was an awful several years where it was framework after framework super-JavaScript ADHD which drove a lot of developers to leave web development, because of the move from server-side to client-side, along with NoSQL DBs, seemingly stupid things were happening like client-side credential storage, ignoring ACID for data, etc.
So- all that to say, it wasn’t until 2007-2011 before JS took off.
I've got a .NET/Kestrel/SQLite stack that can crank out SSR responses in no more than ~4 milliseconds. Average response time is measured in hundreds of microseconds when running release builds. This is with multiple queries per page, many using complex joins to compose view-specific response shapes. Getting the data in the right shape before interpolating HTML strings can really help with performance in some of those edges like building a table with 100k rows. LINQ is fast, but approaches like materializing a collection per row can get super expensive as the # of items grows.
The closer together you can get the HTML templating engine and the database, the better things will go in my experience. At the end of the day, all of that fancy structured DOM is just a stream of bytes that needs to be fed to the client. Worrying about elaborate AST/parser approaches when you could just use StringBuilder and clever SQL queries has created an entire pointless, self-serving industry. The only arguments I've ever heard against using something approximating this boil down to arrogant security hall monitors who think developers cant be trusted to use the HTML escape function properly.
It works well here on HN for example as it is quite simple.
There are a lot of other examples where people most likely should do a simple website instead of using JS framework.
But "we could all go back to full page reloads" is not true, as there really are proper "web applications" out there for which full page reloads would be a terrible UX.
To summarize there are:
"websites", "web documents", "web forms" that mostly could get away with full page reloads
"web applications" that need complex stuff presented and manipulated while full page reload would not be a good solution
This didn't work for me on my browsers (FF/Chrome/Safari) on Mac, apparently XSLT only works there when accessed through HTTP:
$ python3 -m http.server --directory .
$ open http://localhost:8000/blog.xml
Huh, neat! Did’t know it supported that. (python3 -m http.server will default to current directory anyway though)
python3 -m http.server -d _site/
I think there are just a few that know XSL(T) these days, or need some refresh (like me).
my only option to fix this are javascript, xslt or a server side html generator. (and before you ask, static site generators are no better, they just make the generation part manual instead of automatic.)
i don't actually care if the site is static. i only care that maintenance is simple.
build tools are not simple. they tend to suffer from bitrot because they are not bundled with the hosting of the site or the site content.
server side html generators (aka content management systems, etc.) are large and tie me to a particular platform.
frontend frameworks by default require a build step and of course need javascript in the browser. some frameworks can be included without build tools, and that's better, but also overkill for large sites. and of course then you are tied to the framework.
another option is writing custom javascript code to include an html snippet from another file.
or maybe i can try to rig include with xslt. will that shut up the people who want to view my site without javascript?
at some point there was discussion for html include, but it has been dropped. why?
This was easy do achieve with PHP with a super minimal setup, so I thought, why not? Still no build steps!
PHP is quite ubiquitous and stable these days so it is practically equivalent to making a static site. Just a few sprinkles of dynamism to avoid repeting HTML all over the place.
You can totally do that with PHP? It can find all the pages, generate the menu, transform markdown to html for the current page, all on the fly in one go, and it feels instantaneous. If you experience some level of traffic you can put a CDN in front but usually it's not even necessary.
Unfortunately it is not a sentiment that is shared by many, and many developers always had issues understanding the FP approach of its design, looking beyond the XML.
25 years later we have JSON and YAML formats reinventing the wheel, mostly badly, for that we already had nicely available on the XML ecosystem.
Schemas, validation, graphical transformation tools, structured editors, comments, plugins, namespaces,...
It would probably help if xslt was not a god-awful language even before it was expressed via an even worse syntax.
Now ironically, we have to reach for tooling to work around the design flaws of json and yaml.
That reads like an indictment of using XML for a programming language.
Not that it has anything to do with the semantics of XSLT.
XML is tooling based, and there have been plenty of tools to write XSLT on, including debugging and processing example fragments, naturally not something vi crowd ever became aware of amid their complaints.
Has there been any progress on making this into something developers would actually like to use? As far as I can tell, it’s only ever used in situations where it’s a last resort, such as making Atom/RSS feeds viewable in browsers that don’t support them.
From talking to AI, it seems the main issues would be:
- SEO (googlebot)
- Social Media Sharing
- CSP heavy envs could be trouble
Is this right?
1. Even though there are newer XSLT standards, XSLT 1.0 is still dominant. It is quite limited and weird compared to the newer standards.
2. Resolving performance problems of XSLT templates is hell. XSLT is a Turing-complete functional-style language, with performance very much abstracted away. There are XSLT templates that worked fine for most documents, but then one document came in with a ~100 row table and it blew up. Turns out that the template that processed the table is O(N^2) or worse, without any obvious way to optimize it (it might even have an XPath on each row that itself is O(N) or worse). I don't exactly know how it manifested, but as I recall the document was processed by XSLT for more than 7 minutes.
A couple of blue chip websites I‘ve seen that could be completely taken down just by requesting the sitemap (more than once per minute).
PS: That being said it is an implantation issue. But it may speak for itself that 100% of the XSLT projects I‘ve seen had it.
But in the end the core problem is XSLT, the language. Despite being a complete programming language, your options are very limited for resolving performance issues when working within the language.
I worked with a guy who knew all about complexity analysis, but was quick to assert that "n is always small". That didn't hold - but he'd left the team by the time this became apparent.
It looks great, then you design your stuff and it goes great, then you deploy to the real world and everything catches on fire instantly and everytime you stop one another one starts.
Generally speaking I feel like this is true for a lot of stuff in programming circles, XML included.
New technology appears, some people play around with it. Others come up with using it for something else. Give it some time, and eventually people start putting it everywhere. Soon "X is not for Y" blogposts appear, and usage finally starts to decrease as people rediscover "use the right tool for the right problem". Wait yet some more time, and a new technology appears, and the same cycle begins again.
Seen it with so many things by now that I think "we'll" (the software community) forever be stuck in this cycle and the only way to win is to explicitly jump out of the cycle and watch it from afar, pick up the pieces that actually make sense to continue using and ignore the rest.
Streaming is not supported until later version.
I think one big problem with popularizing that approach is that XSLT as a language frankly sucks. As an architecture component, it's absolutely the right idea, but as long as actually developing in it is a world of pain, I don't see how people would have any incentive to adopt it.
The tragic thing is that there are other pure-functional XML transformation languages that are really well-designed - like XQuery. But there is no browser that supports those.
If you're manually writing the <>-stuff in an editor you're doing it wrong, do it programmatically or with applications that abstract it away.
Use things like JAXB or other mature libraries, eXist-db (http://exist-db.org), programs that can produce visualisations and so on.
> [...] the idea of building a website like this in XML and then transforming it using XSL is absurd in and of itself [...]
In the comments the creators comment on it, like that it was a mess to debug. But I could not find anything wrong with the technique itself, assuming that it is working.
XML is the C++ of text based file formats if you ask me. It's mature, batteries included, powerful and can be used with any language, if you prefer.
Like old and mature languages with their own quirks, it's sadly fashionable to complain about it. If it doesn't fit the use case, it's fine, but treating it like an abomination is not.
JS was waay too slow, but it turned out that even back then XSLT was blazing fast. So I basically generated XML with all the data, wrote a simple XSLT with one clever XPath that generated search input form, did the search and displayed the results, slapped the xml file in CD auto-run and called it a day. It was finding results in a second or less. One of my best hacks ever.
Since then I always wanted to make a html templating system that compiles to XSLT and does the HTML generation on client side. I wrote some, but back then Firefox didn't support displaying XML+XSLT directly and the workaround I came up with I didn't like. Then the AJAX came and then JS got faster and client side rendering with JS became viable. But I still think it's a good idea, to send just dynamic XMLs with static XSLTs preloaded and cached, if we ever want to come back to purely server driven request-response flow. Especially if binary format for XML catches on.
Xee: A Modern XPath and XSLT Engine in Rust
XML is a semi-structured format, which (apart from & < >) includes plain text as a more or less degenerate case. I don't think we have any other realistic format for marking up plain text with arbitrary semantics. You can have, for example, a recipe format with <ingredient> as part of its schema, and it's trivial to write an Xpath to pull out all the <ingredient>s (to put them in your shopping list, or whatever).
Obviously, XSLT is code. Nobody denies this really. One thing about code is that it's inherently structured. Only the craziest of literate programmers would try to embed executable code inside of text. But I don't think that's the biggest problem. Code is special in that special purpose programming languages always leak outside the domain they're designed for. If you try and write a little language that's really well-scoped to transforming XML, you are definitely going to want to call stuff outside it sooner or later.
Combined with the fact that there really isn't any value in ever parsing or processing a stylesheet, it seems like it was doomed never to pan out.
It never broke, ever.
It could have bugs, of course! -- but only "programmer bugs" (behavior coded in a certain way that should have been coded in another); it never suddenly stopped working for no reason like everything does nowadays.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/...
I have created a CMS that supported different building blocks (plugins), each would output its data in XML and supply its XSLT for processing. The CMS called each block, applied the concatenated XSLT and output HTML.
It was novel at the time and really nice and handy to use.
JonChesterfield•4h ago