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Neanderthals operated prehistoric “fat factory” on German lakeshore

https://archaeologymag.com/2025/07/neanderthals-operated-fat-factory-125000-years-ago/
112•hilux•3d ago

Comments

baxtr•5h ago
> The production of bone grease, which required huge quantities of bone to be worthwhile, was previously considered to be something limited to Upper Paleolithic modern humans. This find pushes back the timeline by thousands of years and represents a fundamental shift in our knowledge of Neanderthal diet and adaptation.

If I had to guess I’d say we learned it from them.

ricksunny•4h ago
I still struggle with the repeated assertions from the scicommss set that the 'neanderthals died out' or 'humans outcompeted neanderthals who went extinct', while at the same time acknowledging that 3% of DNA of everyone outside the African content is neanderthal. With that being the limit of 'the data' generally cited at hadn't, wouldn't a gradual, passively amicable merging (e.g. absorption) be just as explanatory as that Neanderthal's 'went extince' or 'were outcompeted'?
Nursie•3h ago
It's interesting to think about, and yes, I would think it's more accurate to consider that homo (sapiens) neanderthalensis are part of what became us, and in that case it seems odd/wrong to talk about them being outcompeted when there was interbreeding and their descendents are still here.

However they are still extinct!

It reminds me of the historical narratives in the UK about Viking settlers. We were taught (in the 80s and 90s) to think of the vikings as an invasive force, who were and remained an alien population, who raised levies from the poor, honest britains, and who eventually left or were overcome or just faded from view or whatever. We tended to then skip to the Norman conquest and not talk about it too much. But it's clear in the narrative that the Vikings are 'them' and the saxons are 'us'.

Only when you look at the actual history, the viking people settled and intermarried, cross-pollinated culturally and religiously and are firmly 'us' (if you're British). As a political force, the Norman conquest put an end to their rule of the northern part of England, but it's not like they suddenly all went 'home' after a couple of hundred years of settling.

Ono-Sendai•3h ago
Also the Normans were vikings!
clarionbell•2h ago
French speaking descendants of vikings yes. But they didn't have that much in common with Norwegians at the time.
kergonath•2h ago
They had been vikings. They integrated very quickly on the continent, inter-married with locals and absorbed the culture within a couple of generations. It was nothing like the power structure that was put in place in England.
pbmonster•3h ago
I think it's because that 3% number is so small, it actually comes down to "outcompeted". A merger of two equally fit sub-species would result in more DNA persisting.
josefx•3h ago
Isn't there already an overlap in the upper 90% between humans and apes? I don't know how much the neanderthal DNA differed back then, but it couldn't be more than that, could it? So wouldn't 3% of the total be at least a third of the parts that did differ?
pbmonster•2h ago
It's always confusing how those DNA comparisons are worded. We share almost 99% of our DNA with chimps, for example. But this just means that if you go down the genome, we have 99% of the same types of genes. And that's true even though we don't even have the same number of chromosomes as chimps! (We also share 50% of DNA with bananas - which just shows how incredibly complex basic stuff like cell respiration is.)

This is different than the statement that you share 50% of your DNA with your siblings, of course. Because in that case, you actually have the exact identical alleles as your siblings in 50% of your DNA.

The 3% neanderthal DNA is the second type of comparison.

hammock•32m ago
There are a number of ethnic groups (not species or subspecies, I realize) that are less than 3% of the gene pool today (and happened over a much shorter timespan I would suppose) such as Irish, Jewish, Armenian, etc. Would they be considered having been outcompeted at this point?
atoav•3h ago
I am pretty sure most experts in the field would share your assertion that the statement ("neanderthals died out") hides complexity.

Sometimes hiding complexity behind some ballpark statement can be useful tho. I teach media technology — and a useful simplification is to have students think about inputs and outputs in an abstract fasbion first, then we can talk about signal types and levels and maybe impedances. But in reality a mere piece of wire with a shield can get infinitely more complex and fill a whole academic career. It just isn't useful to start talking about it that way unless you like to get rid of students. I tend to mention simplifications when I use them however, something I wish more scientific journalism did.

14•4h ago
I am convinced that early humans were a lot smarter then given credit for. My guess is the same as yours and that they were part of a long chain of steps of learning and development that went back much farther then we have evidence for.
Gupie•3h ago
Possibly however homo erectus used the same design for their hand axes for over a million years. This implies the design was hardwired in their brains, in the same way the design of nests are hardwired in bird brains, as opposed to a rationally thought out design.
jbotz•4h ago
When I first read this a question jumped out at me: Wait, Neanderthals were able to render fat? That requires boiling, and doesn't boiling require pottery?

This led me down a bit of a rabbit-hole. It turns out that no, you don't need pottery to boil things, because you can do it just fine in combustible materials like animal hide or birch bark... so long as you keep the water level consistently high enough, because then the container material will never get hotter than 100 degrees Celcius! So that's kind of obvious once you think about it, but what's interesting about this is that nobody ever considered it until just recently and the whole of paleo-anthropology "knew" that humans couldn't boil things until the invention of pottery![1] To me this is a particularly interesting and surprising example of how, in scientific disciplines, bad assumptions can stick around unquestioned even though from the perspective of physics it's quite obvious that they're bad assumptions.

Edit: add reference to some experimental verification[2].

[1] https://paleoanthro.org/media/journal/content/PA20150054.pdf

[2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12520-023-01843-z

14•3h ago
Yes if you search youtube you can find people showing how to boil water inside a plastic bag. Typically they show this in survival situation scenarios. You apparently can also do it in a wooden container if done right.

But as to your question wouldn't they need to have pots? Well I know we don't have evidence of that but it wouldn't surprise me. Another method show for survival shows a person taking a fallen tree and building a fire by it. Then you place some hot burning pieces on top of the log. Keep adding them and burning on top of the log until it burns a bowl sized indentation. Then you take a rock or stick and scrape the hole and get it clean sort of. Then you put water into that and if no container to carry water is shows soaking a shirt and carrying it that way. After the large bowl sized hole is filled with water you take a few rocks that were sitting in the fire and drop them in. You will be amazed how fast it will boil the water. This is done to allow you to drink from a potentially unsafe water source.

I guess what I am thinking is that there are probably dozens of ways they could have achieved it. Ways that with our knowledge of today escapes us but to them it was common knowledge. If I had to take a guess they would have used rocks and use a large flat rock and encircle that rock with rocks making a pit or rocks then covered the sides with dirt. Then dug a hole under part of the large flat rock and made fire under it. This primitive pot would not work well at first but my guess is that as fat melted and oozed into the cracks it would eventually seal and then would work very well to boil things. Anyways just fun to think about I know very little about the time period.

netcan•3h ago
>But as to your question wouldn't they need to have pots?

"Pottery" tends to assume ceramics. In Neolithic and later sites that had pottery, ceramic remains typically represent 99% of the total artifacts.

Bronze age tel sites are littered with ceramic pebbles. Every pot eventually becomes a bunch of shards and pebbles that last forever.

That said... a material culture that only uses ceramics occasionally wouldn't leave such signs.

Also.. you could call a wood or hide bucket "pottery," I think.

bjackman•2h ago
IIUC the easiest way to boil stuff without ceramics is usually in an animal's stomach or intestines. I believe you can also do it in a lined wicker basket.

I'm not sure exactly how these things are done but both of them seem much easier to figure out than how to fire a pot! (Requires very high temperature and a good understanding of the material to stop it cracking)

Youden•2h ago
In high school science class we boiled water using standard printer paper: fold a sheet into a box, put it on a stand over a bunsen burner, fill it with water, turn up the bunsen burner.

Not only does it not burn but it retains more of its structural integrity.

p00dles•1h ago
that is so cool - I mean the fact that this example stuck with you so long is a single of good teaching to me
kadoban•2h ago
Is it me or is it odd that that first paper doesn't seem to cite any source for the misconception they're trying to argue against? I don't see any cites for people who believed that boiling could not happen in fragile containers.

So my question would be: how many anthropologists believed that, and when did that stop being a majority belief, if it ever was?

poulpy123•9m ago
Honestly just ask people around you if you can boil water in a plastic or paper bag
bravesoul2•2h ago
You can boil things in bamboo too
clarionbell•2h ago
From the original paper:

> experiments recently demonstrated that organic perishable containers, e.g., made out of deer skin or birch bark, placed directly on a fire, are capable of heating water sufficiently to process food, with the advantages of wet-cooking beginning at lower, sub-boiling temperatures than thus far acknowledged

rukuu001•1h ago
Yep, leather works.
sumitkumar•1h ago
Even thin single use plastic works. The first time I saw it it was surreal.
ethan_smith•1h ago
Stone boiling (dropping heated rocks into water-filled containers) was also a widespread pre-pottery technique that Neanderthals likely employed alongside the hide/bark methods you mentioned.
slow_typist•40m ago
+1 You can even dig a hole into ground and seal it with clay. It’s a well known survival technique.
stinos•1h ago
Heh, wanted to make a comment saying this isn't 'super' recent knowlegde because I vividly remember Jean M. Auel using it in her first novels written in the 80's, and basically all the technical stuff she wrote was researched, ony to find out [1] indeed opens with a quote from said novels.
contrarian1234•1h ago
I read that the native american peoples that lives in the San Francisco area never invented pottery. They boiled water in tightly woven baskets.

Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

bjornsing•50m ago
> Sure you have a 100C heatsink within millimeters, but I still find it surprising that the outside layer of the basket wouldn't burn away slowly.

Probably because the water slowly permeates through the outside layer of the basket and evaporates there. A lot of energy can be absorbed that way.

agumonkey•57m ago
So the heat transfer through the material to the water "fast" enough so that it doesn't char at all ? Makes sense but still surprising.
MPSimmons•33m ago
Yep. Lots of examples on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV2gsWHhDhY
freetime2•4h ago
>The study indicates that Neanderthals, in addition to smashing bones to access the marrow—a behavior shared by their earliest African ancestors—also crushed them into fragments and boiled them to obtain bone grease, a nutrient-rich resource.

I wish the article went into more details about how they boiled the bones. My first thought was that smashing bones and boiling them is not all that impressive. And then I thought about how I would boil bones without a pot to boil them in... and actually that does sound like it would be a challenge and require a lot of collaboration and planning.

pbmonster•3h ago
> cut-marked remains of 76 rhinos and 40 elephants were also discovered at nearby sites like Taubach.

Remarkable how different the previous interglacial periods were. Herds of elephants and rhinos in today's Berlin, at 51° north!

Roark66•3h ago
And how could they've done this without language? I've heard this statement that neanderthals were "outcompeted" because homo sapiens had language and they did not (something about the way their anatomy didn't allow for making complex sounds). I call BS on that now. You can't do this kind of stuff without ability to communicate your intentions, future plans, rewards for other people and so on.

Next we'll discover they were rendering that fat to grease their wheel axles with...

cdrini•3h ago
Both of those things can be true. Just because they didn't have language, doesn't mean they couldn't communicate, it just means they could likely only communicate primarily by showing instead of telling. And it's also clear why being able to communicate with language would indeed offer quite the competitive edge over that system.
bbarnett•1h ago
During a period of high trust, I've watched crows training their young via showing.

While crows have "crafty" intelligence, neanderthals would be more apt at this.

But really, the logical first language would be gesture, an extension of already existing body language. And such language is employed by humans when hunting, at war, whenever quiet is preferred.

Even a gesture language of a few dozen concepts is almost automatic, pointing, waving, directional motions, hushing motions, pointing at your head, clapping, etc.

This being extended as full language in beings incapable of complex sound, seems viable.

cdrini•41m ago
Very cool anecdote! And agreed, I think we're being a bit "handwavy" about what we mean when we say "language"; it seems like more of a spectrum. I'm not sure where we draw the line between, say, language that animals use which, to the best of our knowledge, do not show complex/abstract communication, and human languages. And who knows where Neanderthal language/communication would fall on that spectrum!
bjackman•2h ago
Yeah I think it's pretty inconceivable at this point that Sapiens were the first ones to have language.

I think it's still reasonable to argue that Neandertals lacked certain capacities that we have, based on differences in the evidence from tools and art that's attributed to them vs Sapiens.

But IMO this would clearly have been a difference of degree, not at atomic shift. They were obviously _people_.

fransje26•1h ago
At the moment, your comment is being heavily down-voted for what seems to be a totally reasonable point of view.

In recent years we've went from "completely primitive and segregated Neanderthals", to "oh, we share quite a bit of DNA with the Neanderthals", and "the Neanderthals engaged in complex symbolic thought", as well as "the Neanderthals were pretty advanced artists".

The current article is a further demonstration of that trend.

So it's fair to say that our original assumptions of the Neanderthals were profoundly flawed, and, as we go, we discover that they were different to us by a difference of degree -as you propose-, as opposed to the notion of being radically and binarily different.

In that vein, it is not a stretch to imagine that we were perhaps also completely wrong in our assumptions of their ability to communicate by sound, i.e. mastering languages.

jl6•1h ago
It seems weird to think there needs to be a major biological distinction to explain the idea of being outcompeted. Modern humans outcompete each other at various things all the time, right now (peacefully and non-peacefully) and it’s not because of any differences as drastic as having language vs not having language.
slow_typist•32m ago
And neanderthalensis was not outcompeted, their genes survived in Homo sapiens until today.
contrarian1234•35m ago
Do you think a community of deaf people wouldn't be able to do it? :)
samuell•3h ago
Neanderthals were people. Even Nobel laurate Svante Pääbo, who sequenced their DNA, admits it.
meindnoch•1h ago
Disgusting.
poulpy123•11m ago
While the discovery is great, there are quotes that are very clickbaity like "They understood both the nutritional value of fat and how to access it efficiently.”

No they didn't understand the nutritional value better than any other homo something before or after, or even any carnivorous animals. It's just that evolution engineered them to look for food everywhere. For example the bearded vulture diet is based on bone and bone marrow, it's not because it understands the nutritional value of bone marrow better than the other birds but because all carnivorous animals evolved to eat fat, and evolution provided a way for this bird to get the marrow more easily than the others.

thfuran•5m ago
Neanderthals were certainly smart enough to have more understanding of dietary needs than a vulture does. And "any homo something before or after" includes us today. While it might be reasonable to say there are things we don't fully understand about the way fat affects the body, we do understand the nutritional value of fat.

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