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Bulgaria to join euro area on 1 January 2026

https://www.ecb.europa.eu//press/pr/date/2025/html/ecb.pr250708~b9676a9fa8.en.html
211•toomuchtodo•6h ago

Comments

jmyeet•6h ago
This will likely come with a one-time significant increase in inflation, at least based on other European countries.

When Germany converted to the Euro, the conversion rate was (IIRC) about ~2 DM to the Euro but from what I recall, a lot of everyday things went from costing 7 DM to 7 euro, effectively doubling in price. IIRC France was similar (ie ~6.5 francs to the Euro but 10 Francs went to 3 euro, etc).

I've tried searching for any studies on this to see if the effect was measured and, if so, whether it held with later countries joining the euro.

I'm a little surprised that the euro has been this stable for this long (going on 30 years). Finland debated leaving. IT's debated if there's even a legal mechanism to leave. We still have the problem that the ECB sets eurozone monetary policy with Germany and Greece being vastly different economies.

aopwiejfpoieajf•5h ago
Even though the Bulgarian lev has been pegged to the Euro for decades at this point?
dotancohen•5h ago
Just as the Mark and the Franc were.
bapak•5h ago
I don’t think those two are comparable economies to Bulgaria 20 years ago.
dotancohen•4h ago
Thinking about it, the comparison really isn't that bad. West Germany had just reunited with the East, and France was definitely on a similar upward trajectory as Bulgaria is today.
bapak•4h ago
When the EU was formed, its members' economies were comparable.

The lev was pegged to the euro in 1999, Bulgaria was roughly 80% poorer than the EU leaders

(I'm using PPP figures from ChatGPT to make these comparisons, I don't know if I'm making any sense)

aopwiejfpoieajf•4h ago
Surely they were not pegged for decades given that the Euro was introduced in 1998 and they transitioned fully in 2002?
blahedo•3h ago
It was pegged originally to the Deutschmark. If you look up a currency table the historic DEM has the exact same conversion rate as the lev will have.
coliveira•5h ago
The Euro expansion is the mechanism the EU has to export inflation to other countries, similar to the way the US exports inflation with dollar trading across the world. When the easy expansion stops, this is when the debasement will start to occur. The US is already at this point, very soon the dollar will be less valuable as less trading is happening in USD.
oaiey•2h ago
I think there are other motives otherwise Bulgaria would say, no thank you. IMHO, the primary motivation is to establish/strengthen the single market and the economic cohesion of the EU. That inflation is a side effect of this (and part of the stabilization) might be the case.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
we want to say NO THANK YOU by holding a referendum, but they wont let us. xaxa
mynameisbob•5h ago
I was in Belgium the week the Belgian franc converted to Euros. I saw no price changes other than rounding up or down to the nearest Euro equivalent price. If memory serves some stores showed prices in both denominations for a while which would not have allowed for stealth inflation to happen.

The currencies were pegged for a period before then so other than niche cases there really weren’t opportunities for massive price increases.

BlaDeKke•4h ago
I’m Belgian. This is correct. Even now, some people here still convert euros to francs to get a grasp on the value.
Aeolun•4h ago
This feels odd to me. The only people I can really see doing this is ones that were 70+ when the Euro was introduced.
W3zzy•1h ago
I did that a while ago and stopped immediately because it's scary and irrelevant. My parents house was wrote expensive at the rule they bought it at 600.000 Bfr. Now it's being valued at 600.000 euros. That's a factor 40 over about 30 years. When euro landed a beer cost about 45 Bfr, a bit over a euro. Now I pay €2,5. It's hard to compare prices over that period of time.
oaiey•3h ago
Did not happen in Germany either. Inflation and price hikes came but later. And had nothing to do with currency system but were overdue price adjustments or greed of companies.
lttlrck•3h ago
I remember the rounding up in Germany. But that was the extent of it. It was a one time event and wasn't difficult to absorb.
Scoundreller•2h ago
> I saw no price changes other than rounding up or down to the nearest Euro equivalent price

Dunno about Belgium but what I notice in French supermarkets is that prices aren’t rounded at all. 10k SKUs will have 10k different prices (ish).

Plain frozen pizza? 4,62 EUR.

Same with pepperoni? 4,92 EUR

Domestic 500mL beer? 1,14 EUR

Fancier beer? 1,81 EUR

W3zzy•1h ago
Plain frozen pizza? gesticulates annoyed in Italian ;-)
W3zzy•1h ago
Belgium had double denominations for about two years. My mother owned a business at that time and she used the occasion to correct the prices a bit bit that was only because she lagged a bit on inflation.
skerit•1h ago
40,3399 BEF

They really hammered this in. It was even a question on my exams.

petesergeant•5h ago
> I've tried searching for any studies ... but from what I recall

I mean if you've tried to find evidence and can't, this feels a lot like you're simply misremembering?

arlort•3h ago
It's something that is pretty much taken as gospel in many countries that that happened

I've only checked the data for Italy but real inflation stayed pretty much constant while perceived inflation absolutely blew out of proportion.

So essentially people noticed some minority of shops raising their prices talking advantage of the little confusion around the exchange rate and never shut up about it since

oaiey•2h ago
Same in Germany. I remember the times, was a poor student. Restaurants took the opportunity to change prices, which everyone felt but did not influence the inflation. And that price hikes was overdue (at least that was the statements back then ... Which I found rationale)
joules77•4h ago
Covid sort of showed everyone how hard it is to survive as a small economy in the modern highly interdependent world.

One small disruptor to a core component of a small economy and they are standing outside the IMF to survive.

There are currently 50-60 small countries that depend on borrowing from the IMF (that too in dollars paying interest in dollars - given competition levels guess what dollar generating capacities small economies have? They end up economic vassals of larger systems or selling off national assets or being used in geopolitical games).

On the other hand look at China and India. They have more provinces/states than the EU and larger populations. Vastly differently economies spanning all those subunits. Yet you wont find any of those subunits complaining about their central bank setting monetary policy.

Why? Cuz look at the surroundings - Sri Lanka/Pakistan/Myanmar/Bangladesh/Thailand/Indonesia/even South Korea all at one point or another requiring the IMF to step in and bail them out when they ran into trouble.

The world is too complex and fast/ever changing and small economies are increasingly dependent on larger economies to manage the unknowns and unpredictability that lie ahead. Its almost become impossible to survive by themselves. Sort of like running a book store in the era of Amazon.

petesergeant•4h ago
> Yet you wont find any of those subunits complaining about their central bank setting monetary policy

I mean and also the US, but the key difference here is that those are also cohesive countries where wealth transfers between different areas is the norm. Much less problematic if a policy is better for New York than Alabama if you know for sure that the federal government is going to make sure Alabama doesn't get screwed.

In the EU you have the opposite problem: policies that benefit rich countries will result in the rich countries complaining about how they support the other economies and moralizing.

joules77•3h ago
Ofcourse they will complain but they also learn to stay rich and be a large power you have to pay attention to the needs of others. If you don't, others will step into that space and the less others depend on you, the less relevant you become. Its like a learning process that takes its own sweet time.
chrismorgan•4h ago
> Yet you wont find any of those subunits complaining about their central bank setting monetary policy.

This is ludicrously wrong of India, and I understand enough of human nature and economics that I’d be surprised if it were true of China, though it may be more suppressed.

Monetary policy is government policy. The ruling party is seldom uniformly popular across their entire domain. Perhaps you’re more familiar with US politics: broadly, rural is Republican, urban is Democrat. In India, the ruling party BJP has a lot of the north, but not so much of the south or east. Accordingly, you should expect dissent from regions with a different state government. And as for socioeconomic disparity between states, rich may complain if they seem to be subsidising poor, poor may complain if they don’t seem to be getting enough attention.

joules77•3h ago
But is anyone asking for their own local currency or central bank? If not why not?
chrismorgan•3h ago
In some places I gather that pretty much happened during https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Indian_banknote_demonetis.... (I happened to be in India at the time, but where I was it was more just extreme discontent with resignation, rather than threatening fracture.)
ekunazanu•1h ago
The discontentment arose because it was extremely poorly planned, and failed to address the very problems it was 'trying' to solve. It is very unlikely for a state government to implement a local currency and introduce more friction to an already painfully bureaucratic system; it is a politically disastrous move.

> Monetary policy is government policy. The ruling party is seldom uniformly popular across their entire domain.

If by monetary policy you are referring to fiscal policy, you're pretty much spot on. There's always in-fighting between states and lots of complaining about the central/federal government favoring certain states over others.

bluecalm•1h ago
In many places people wouldn't ask because it's completely unrealistic to get it. Regions struggle to get a bit more independence from the central government. An own currency is completely unrealistic. Your argument doesn't work.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
Bulgaria is still around so are other countries without the deluded euro. lol
toomuchtodo•4h ago
The euro and prices: changeover-related inflation and price convergence in the euro area - https://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/pages/publ... (June 2009)
nine_k•3h ago
Wasn't the lev pinned to euro for years, at the stable rate of 1 lev = 0.5 euro? Why the switching to euro would affect inflation much?
decimalenough•3h ago
It's pinned at 1.95583 to the euro, not 2. If a merchant has a product that sells for 2 lev today, and they sell it for 1 euro tomorrow, they just increased the price by a bit over 2%.
decimalenough•3h ago
Missing piece of info: the official conversion rate is 1.95583 per euro. It will be extremely tempting for merchants to use 2:1 instead.

The situation was literally identical in Germany, where the official rate was also precisely 1.95583 to the euro (because the lev used to be tied to the DM at 1:1), but not so in most other European countries.

ingohelpinger•3h ago
exactly, Bulgarian here, born in Germany in 1988, so I lived with the DM and then experienced the Euro throughout my entire life, until 2023 when I decided to go back to BG. The Euro will make BG a debt slave on Germanys and France terms. Watch critical infrastructure being sold to China or who knows, just like Greece had to do it.
t_tsonev•2h ago
Finally, some quality fearmongering on Hacker News /s
akmarinov•2h ago
Since Bulgaria was already in a currency board with the Euro, they already were a “debt slave”, so nothing changes there.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
it seems you are not understanding how dent unions work. lol
decimalenough•53m ago
The Bulgarian lev has been fixed to the value of the German mark and later the Euro since 1997, lol.
mrtksn•2h ago
Soon all the prices will be listed in both of the currencies and they will be kept as that for another six months after the adoption.

The country already experienced quite a bit of inflation last years, regardless of not being in the euro. I don’t see why the change of the currency that is already pegged to euro since the creation of Euro will cause any inflation beyond the rounding and the rounding is for 1:1.95583 and that often provides rounding sown incentive as 4.99 becoming 2.04 and 4.49 becoming 2.2957

A more realistic concern can be that Bulgaria might start borrowing irresponsibly. Currently Bulgaria's debt to GDP is just around %22, which is very low.

jochem9•1h ago
In the Netherlands there was a brief spike of inflation, but that was due to rounding up, definitely not converting 1 NLG to 1 EUR.

The inflation did correct itself the years after (aka lower than usual). The perception with many people still is that the euro made everything more expensive, but that's only based on feelings. The inflation numbers tell a different story.

isodev•5h ago
Nice. It’s amazing to see the progress Bulgarians have made in the last 20 years after joining the EU. I can imagine it hasn’t been an easy process.
petesergeant•5h ago
Two things that surprised me when I spent a couple of months in Bulgaria:

* Bulgarian support for the EU is pretty low and people didn't think it made their life much better

* Bulgarian support for Russia is very high, like 50%, probably due to their historic help in kicking out the Turks

mc32•5h ago
Also the experience of Greece not too far back and the austerity imposed by Germany is not quite forgotten. Varoufakis[1] can attest to its severity. The Greeks voted against it but Germany imposed its will.

[1]https://jacobin.com/2025/07/yanis-varoufakis-on-the-legacy-o...

isodev•4h ago
And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region. The propaganda is strong on the airwaves these days, just like in the US, one shouldn’t react to “facts” taken out of context.

It seems (from here), support for Russia is somehow magically going down as Russia’s economy is having trouble paying for its “support” abroad.

jazzyjackson•4h ago
In which region is Greece a leading economy?
dr_kretyn•4h ago
In a region composed of Greece, North Macedonia and Cyprus.
kyriakos•3h ago
Doesn't sound right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_...

Cyprus ranks 17th and Greece 32nd

petesergeant•4h ago
> And yet, Greece recovered to become a leading economy in the region

I don't think that's true ... growth is good, but that's because there's a lot of catching up to do. If I remember correctly (and maybe I don't) then real GDP is still like -20% vs 2007, debt is EU-leading at like 150% of GDP, unemployment remains high, and wages remain low.

shakow•40m ago
> to become a leading economy in the region.

Leading compared to what, Romania and North Macedonia?

> support for Russia is somehow magically going down

I don't think support for Russia was ever notably involved in the whole clusterfuck regarding the Greek economy.

gbil•4h ago
This is a very distant view for the reasons behind the crisis in Greece and for sure the government of 2015 was not a victim. In the context of this thread, Bulgarians as Greeks before them, enjoy the money from the EU but don’t like the responsibility that comes from it, to reform, to also contribute and that you lose the own currency perks while you gain on other fronts. Of course there is a lot more here to discuss but this is my experience being a Greek in Greece.
W3zzy•1h ago
The government was not the victim in deed. But up until today you can see the results amongst the population. You can Prune for growt or you can just cut the plant to the ground hoping it will survive.
omnimus•6m ago
Greece was sacrificed so eurozone (especialy Germany) could hide recession by bailing out banks (through bailing out Hreece). Greeks know and believe this. That makes their relationship with EU quite complicated.
spookie•3h ago
You know, there's Greece and Portugal. Mentioning these two as they got Troika following them.

Portugal managed to get out of the storm, and debt is now below GDP.

Greece took many bad steps trying to recover. And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks.

And that was before Troika.

Ygg2•2h ago
> And its debt shows that. Their governments have had a big part of the blame. Hell, at one point they didnt have enough money for citizens to withdraw from banks.

Sure but so do the creditors. If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy.

At almost no point is there enough money for citizens to withdraw their money. Modern banks don't keep their assets as cash.

guappa•43m ago
> If you keep giving mortgages to anyone with a drivers license that's on you buddy.

Isn't this the USA system?

dkjaudyeqooe•3h ago
This is nonsense. Not mentioned is that Greece has borrowed excessively and had defaulted on its loans. A bailout was organized by the EU and IMF with terms that Greece had every opportunity to reject. No one forced anything on Greece. The referendum was not binding and political theater for the government of the time.

That Greece accepted the terms reflected the reality that the alternative was much worse and would have caused great suffering for Greeks.

ingohelpinger•3h ago
100% true.
mc32•2h ago
What choice did Greece have? Germany was not extending favorable terms, they were punitive, so what choice did they have but take the least awful choice? Syriza tried but Germany had the upper hand and of course didn't give an inch --though Syriza tried very hard.

Varoufakis would argue the severe terms imposed by the creditors/negotiators exacerbated the fiscal issue. Yes Greece had issues but the creditors's terms exacerbated the problem, made things worse.

It's kind of like borrowing from a loan shark to pay off debts --on average, you're better off not. But hey, once you take it, you either pay up, or you lose something dear to you.

mrtksn•2h ago
It’s also more of a generation thing though. The older people are nostalgic about the past and their youth and for a country that experienced 2 decades of very low birth rates that’s the 70s and 80s and those years are under the communist rule and very good years for Bulgaria as the country was experiencing economic boom from computers and electronics manufacturing.

Also, under under the Communist rule supported by USSR, they indoctrinated people into a version of history that Turks are the absolute evil, and Russians are the absolute angels saving them from the ottomans.

I.e. in pre-EU era it was called Ottoman slavery, later they start calling it Ottoman era as it was more accurate as Ottoman’s system was based on collecting taxes and resources from the conquered places when giving them plenty of autonomy. Obviously not ideal but far from slavery.

throwpoaster•1h ago
Unless you were Armenian.
mrtksn•1h ago
Not at all, Armenians were also an integral part of the Ottoman society and that’s how you still have plenty of Armenian cultural heritage dating back to Ottoman times in modern Turkey. You must be referring to the events around WW1 that led the loss of huge numbers of the Armenians through atrocities committed by the Ottomans which some say that it was a genocide, others say it was poorly managed suppression of a rebellion in a dying empire. Still unresolved issue unfortunately.

On the other hand Bulgarians and Turks teamed in wars after the forming of the new Bulgarian state.

kgwgk•43m ago
> poorly managed suppression of a rebellion

Or a too well managed suppression.

“ We have been blamed for not making a distinction between guilty and innocent Armenians. [To do so] was impossible. Because of the nature of things, one who was still innocent today could be guilty tomorrow. The concern for the safety of Turkey simply had to silence all other concerns.”

mrtksn•10m ago
Could be, I agree. I'm inclined to believe that it become a genocide once the incompetent administrators failed to address the core reasons and thought that it would be easier to make these troubles go away by killing everybody.
shakow•42m ago
> others say it was poorly managed suppression of a rebellion in a dying empire

I don't think many say that at all outside of Turkey/Azerbaijan/Pakistan.

mrtksn•23m ago
True, I'm also inclined to believe that it started as a suppression attempt that ended up being a genocide as "an easy solution" to make a problem go away as the dying empire wasn't able to contain it.

I recall reading the communications of some Ottoman officials trying to cash out the life insurance policies of the Armenians. Pure evil, honestly.

ReptileMan•1h ago
>that Turks are the absolute evil

Devshirme, Janissary corps, Batak massacre? There is huge blood debt that is owed to the Balkans and Armenia by the Ottoman Empire and their successor states.

mrtksn•48m ago
Tell me about an empire who conquered and held conquered land through asking politely. If you are able to come up with any, Ottomans certainly were not among those sure. That's why people don't like being invaded by empires. What do you think the first and the second Bulgarian Empires did exactly?

BTW Just like the way Bulgarians may not recognize that the Bulgarian Empire had a military and killed people in order to take others stuff and force them into things they wouldn't do unless defeated through slathering each other, Turks also tend not to understand that institutions like Devshirme or Janissary weren't liked by the people subjected to those.

For example In their mind Devshirme was an education program that gave the opportunity to minority children to have great careers and indeed that was the result(they don't think about how those kids were taken into the program).

Similarly Janissary were elite units with lots of sway in the administration, in their minds Janissaries were spoiled soldiers that are hard to satisfy.

Also, all the wives of the sultans were women from minorities. In the Turkish mind they were lucky women with a lot of influence on the empire. An entire genre of soap operas are made around this and they are very popular in the countries that used to be under the Ottoman rule. Including Bulgaria.

ReptileMan•40m ago
Oh of course. This doesn't invalidates the bad blood. This doesn't mean that I would be sad if Turkey is humiliated and Hagia Sofia becomes once again orthodox church once again. And Istanbul is renamed to Constantinople.
mrtksn•29m ago
The bad blood doesn't make sense, it was an age of the Empires and it was all business and Ottomans didn't do anything particularly different than everyone else did so I don't think that it is fair to say that Ottomans were evil. If anything, under Ottoman rule despite the atrocities minorities kept their language and culture unlike the people subjected to Western imperialism in Africa or Americas. One can even argue that Ottomans were relatively gentle.

Let's hope that we never go back to these days. Imperialism is evil and I'm sorry that Erdogan and other autocrats are trying to revive those days. I also agree that it was very offensive for the christians to turn Hagia Sofia into a mosque again(was a museum till recently) and I would love to see it becoming a church again.

isodev•40m ago
So, you're describing war? The Russians are doing that to Ukraine right now too btw.
csomar•1h ago
Bulgaria economy and the average citizen quality of life are not that correlated. You can have one improving while the other is deteriorating. We saw what happened in the US when such a gap became wide enough.
epolanski•1h ago
By many metrics (life expectancy, inequality, literacy, poverty rates) the US is a third world country.
petesergeant•1h ago
Even grok would call you out on this.
decimalenough•59m ago
No, it really isn't. Although there are some pockets of poverty that come close.
guappa•47m ago
Rich people in 3rd world countries do very well.
barrenko•1h ago
And if the people vote against the EU in the referendums, one's authorities just kinda look the other way.

For anyone who is new to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_French_European_Constitut...

ingohelpinger•2h ago
have you seen the roads? lol
decimalenough•4h ago
Credit where credit is due: the EU gets a lot of flack for being bureaucratic, hidebound, sclerotic, whatever, but the single currency has been a success and it's still expanding, 26 years after its creation.

Also, the addition of Bulgaria means it's almost possible to travel from Spain to Greece entirely through the Eurozone, with only a thin sliver of Serbia or Macedonia in the way. (Assuming we include Montenegro and Kosovo in the Eurozone: technically they aren't, but for all practical purposes they are.)

It'll also be interesting to see who's next. Czechia is not far off but doesn't seem to be in a hurry, while Romania wants in but still seems to be a ways off. Poland and Hungary will stay outside unless there are major political changes.

toomuchtodo•4h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_enlargement_of_the_E...
decimalenough•3h ago
I think you meant this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_the_eurozone
carabiner•3h ago
The crazy thing is that it was US pressure on Europe in the late '90s that led to adoption of the euro.
oaiey•3h ago
I am not aware of this. Can you give us a hint what that was?
oaiey•2h ago
Euro was part of the Maastricht treaty which formed the EU as we know it today in 1992. The euro part was a power move of France against a reunited Germany which back story origins in the early 80s. Obviously backfired.
epolanski•1h ago
How did it backfire?
flimflamm•2h ago
Except if you are a Finnish person who lives right next to Sweden (SEK) and Norway (NOK) who are not using Euro (and Russia but that's a different story).
lawn•2h ago
I live in Sweden at the border of Finland and there's very little issues with crossing the border and paying in another currency.
jojobas•26m ago
Was it any easier when Finland was using the markka?
crossroadsguy•2h ago
I have always felt it was a mistake allowing countries inside the EU but not the currency. But when one looks at the dates - and they are 6 years apart - it becomes clear why. I wonder how it would have turned out had Euro and EU been launched together. Would it have been "a package" or optional?
jochem9•2h ago
All EU countries are required to join the euro. This was agreed in the 1992 Maastricht treaty when the EU was founded (and the EMU, which was the starting point of the euro). Only Denmark and the UK negotiated an opt-out at the time.

Only problem is that there are no deadlines and it's up to the country to make a plan for adopting the euro.

ingohelpinger•1h ago
the same treaty says state financing through the ECB is illegal, but they do it anyway.
epolanski•1h ago
They don't?

All EU emitted debt goes towards specific projects.

ingohelpinger•1h ago
what? the ECB is buying state bonds. maybe thats the reason the ECB is its own state, no authorities allowed to enter the building. wondering how they will audit the ECB. ahh right, they wont. :)
cik•2h ago
I think there's a reality for (visiting) consumers, Schengen has more value than the currency union, at least if you're not a user of cash.

My experiences in non-Euro, Schengen countries is that all payment terminals offer me the choice to pay in Euro or the local currency. In many cases in tourist areas (of Czechia, Poland, and Bulgaria) I only encountered terminals that asked for payment in Euro.

druskacik•1h ago
It's usually better to pay in the local currency than Euro. The currency still has to be exchanged somewhere, and the banks usually have better rates than the terminal operators.
savolai•1h ago
Hm I always wondered about what this choice actually translates to, what’s the underlying logic determining how what I pay in -> where conversion gets made?
decimalenough•1h ago
It's called DCC and you are legally required to be offered a choice. If you choose the local currency, your home bank does the exchange and the rate is basically always better. If you choose your home currency, the terminal operator does the exchange at a terrible rate and often slaps on a hefty fee for the "convenience".
Cu3PO42•52m ago
To make things more complicated: it's not necessarily your home bank making the exchange, it can also be your card scheme (e.g. MasterCard/Visa/...). However, this is something you don't get a choice in. Your bank has an agreement with the scheme which foreign currencies are handled by whom. In any case, the rates used by the schemes are generally also pretty good.
savolai•44m ago
Thanks.

The lack of direct documentation/instructions or link in the terminals to official rules strikes me as horrible ux. You basically just have to be in the know or know who to ask?

Cu3PO42•34m ago
It is horrible UX and one might argue intentional. The terminals are provided by the acquirer, i.e. the same party that stands to make extra money if you let them handle the currency exchange.

In Germany, there was a sliver of time where stores essentially taped a piece of paper to terminals with instructions and big red arrows to select a specific scheme because that would benefit the store (and not cost the consumer extra). It didn't really stick, however. I suspect because it was two extra button presses and the consumer wouldn't notice either way.

chithanh•50m ago
Newspapers even advise travelers against terminals who try to trick paying in Euro instead of local currency. This is a rip-off.
vasco•1h ago
Payment terminals can offer whatever currency exchanges they want, but usually it's just a way to fleece you on the spread, nobody is doing you any favors, it's just that whoever in the chain gets to perform the exchange gets to set the fees and the spread and most people get confused by currency exchange so it's in every middle man of the chain's interest to be the one to perform it and get the spread themselves.
guappa•51m ago
While currency exchange offices are honest and fair?
chithanh•46m ago
If you use your bank's rate by paying in foreign currency then this is usually fair, at most they will add a 1% foreign currency transaction fee.

When it comes to exchanging cash, avoid currency exchanges at places like airports, tourist hotspots, etc. as they will usually offer worse rates than elsewhere.

ses1984•41m ago
That’s not the alternative, the alternative is to let your bank or credit card processor handle the exchange instead of the terminal operator.
Strom•47m ago
Schengen is incredibly useful, especially if you have to transit through several countries. It's also true that the decrease in cash usage has reduced the benefit of the euro.

However, the benefits of a single currency go beyond cash. It's also about understanding prices. You see a sign for coffee and it's 1199 Hungarian Forint -- or it's 14.99 Polish złoty. It's not clear at all what those numbers mean. Sure it's possible to pull out a currency calculator app to see what the rate is today and what it means in euros. It's not an insurmountable problem, but it is bigger than a mere inconvenience. It's constant friction on not really understanding what's going on. If those coffee prices were instead 2.99 € vs 3.53 €, you would immediately see that the Polish coffee is 20% more expensive.

--

As for the payment terminals offering to pay in Euro, as others have already noted, that's a scam. There is a hidden fee, usually around 3.5% - 5.0% of your total, that you get charged for this "convenience". Refusing this and paying in the listed currency will mean that your own bank will do the conversion, which is basically always going to be far cheaper.

Unfortunately this currency conversion scam is so lucrative that even big brands engage in it. Amazon for example asks what currency your card is in. If you select some currency other than what this sepecific Amazon's listed prices are in, well, you're in for another juicy hidden fee, this time to Amazon.

vladvasiliu•15m ago
This isn't my experience, so I think people should pay attention to their specific situation.

Granted, I haven't recently been to any EU country without the Euro, but my main bank charges extortionate conversion fees, 2.sth%, with a ridiculous minimum per transaction.

A few months ago, I've ordered something off Amazon UK (while in the UK) and the conversion they offered was very close to the official GBP / EUR exchange rate, way below my bank's minimum. The price wasn't high, either, on the order of 10 €.

chgs•24m ago
It’s the 21st century, I pay for everything by card, currency barriers are way below Schengen and language barriers
omnimus•13m ago
Yeah never use that offer to pay euros its just scam. Get some travel card like Wise you will save a lot of money and get better feel for the prices.
Roark66•1h ago
Polish here, very much against adopting the euro until our standard of living and growth rate matches Germany (no at least not for next 10 years). Why? Because the disadvantages far out weight the benefits for developing countries. The biggest issue is giving up one of the biggest instrument of control over the economy to a supra-national non-democratic organisation. Surely the monetary policy will follow what is best for the biggest economies (or at best the average) while local policy is way better tweaked towards local needs. The best example of this is money supply. The money supply ideally should match the economy growth rate +X so there is tiny inflation (and definitely no deflation). This growth rate is very different in "old EU" and "new EU" countries. So what happens? In time things get more expensive much faster in countries that grow faster while incomes stay the same. This is a huge negative and this is on top of price increases happening on "day 1" due to rounding up during conversion.

Historically the biggest benefit that was sold as something to outweigh this was a claim that "inflation will be low" and big inflation spikes are impossible. This came about from the short sighted view that all inflation stems from printing money and by giving up our control over it to somebody else we somehow "protect ourselves". This was proven wrong during covid when inflation was vastly different in let's say Latvia and Germany despite sharing a currency.

So what is the bottom line? Is euro all bad? No, it is very useful so we have a common currency in the euro zone that is not controlled from across the ocean. This is a huge benefit, but the same benefit is achieved by having it be a second currency like it is now in Poland rather than the only currency. (you can pay in euros in almost everywhere if you prefer as well as get it from cash machines etc)

mytailorisrich•1h ago
Exactly right.

The euro has benefited countries like Germany a lot but not necessarily all countries.

petre•1h ago
You can't possibly compare Poland to Bulgaria with 1/8 Poland's GDP and 17% its population. For Bulgaria the Euro is completely fine, as the Lev has been pegged to the Deutche Mark and later the Euro for ages. It's exports are basically raw materials and grain. Most of the other stuff they produce is sold domestically. I think I've only seen Bulgarian sunflower oil, mineral water, ketchup and pasta in stores outside the country. For a state with so feeble exports and a pegged currency it really doesn't matter, only adds up currency conversion fees. They might want to attract more tourism and investments.
ingohelpinger•54m ago
not true, almost the entire domestic production like veggies is exported and turkish, greece, dutch low quality stocks imported.
petre•42m ago
Yes, but it's still agri products sold for pennies. Compare that to motor vehicles, car parts, furniture and sanitary hardware that Poland exports. Also, I never ate Shopska salad made with Dutch tomatoes in Bulgaria, even in restaurants outside of Sofia. I can tell the difference, they almost always served the good ripe stuff that has taste, not the watery green variety or the huge Greek tomatoes with air gaps inside.
ingohelpinger•31m ago
for penni's, because they are dumping the prices by importing crap, so the local producer cant sell his product on the domestic market.
szszrk•35m ago
I find his view a bit polarized, but can't really see him comparing those countries at all.

But if we talk about Polish-Bulgarian exchanges: Those two countries actually have more or less the same numbers of Euro spent on import and export between each other. Bulgaria doubled export to Poland in just 2 years. Food products are important, but Bulgaria also exports to Poland many metals, mechanical and electrical devices, pharmaceuticals...

The biggest Polish import from Bulgaria in 2023 were almost a billion Euro on guns and ammunition. "Seeds and oily fruits" (whatever is the correct translation) were 20x less than that.

- https://www.gov.pl/web/bulgaria/informator-ekonomiczny4

guappa•52m ago
Doesn't really matter because being in EU you can't print money, being euros or whatever local currency you have.
wolvesechoes•52m ago
Controlling currency is one of the most important aspects of being a sovereign country. Poland should adopt euro not sooner than Denmark and Sweden.
Thlom•44m ago
Denmark have pegged the krone to the euro. They haven't adopted it, but tied themselves to the Euro. They still maintain control of their currency, but most of that control is used to maintain the value to the euro.
Svip•12m ago
That's because the powers that be want the euro, but the people didn't. They were asked in 1992, 1993 and 2000; and effectively they said no to the euro every time (yes, I know; in 1993, the euro was specifically opted out, but the fact that it was approved when the year before a referendum with the euro was rejected suggests – at least partially – that it was a rejection of the euro (among other things)). Denmark thus came into the EU with 4 opt-outs (one of which has since been rescinded (defence) and one which turned out not to matter (union citizenship)), and they can only be removed with referendum (see for instance the euro one in 2000).

Prior to the adoption of the euro, the Danish crown was pegged to the D-mark (since about the mid-1980s), because Germany was the biggest export market for Denmark (still is), and thus having a currency that's stable towards what the Germans are using has been good for Danish exports (less sure how relevant that still is). (Sidebar; had the original motivation of Alternative für Deutschland been successful and abandoned the Euro for a return to the D-mark (neumark?), it would have put Denmark in an awkward position.)

PunchTornado•17m ago
who is non-democratic and why?
raxxorraxor•7m ago
The EU institution because of pragmatic and systematic properties. Ultimately to say something is democratic or not is a subjective opinion, but EU proponents have made the mistake to brush such criticism away.

Since then the EU is mostly developing in a wrong direction.

CjHuber•15m ago
But you have a much higher growth rate than Germany, why in the world would you like for Poland to match Germany‘s miserable growth rate
yxhuvud•6m ago
Eventually they will catch up to the level of GDP Germany have and then they will start to roughly match their growth rate, over time. It is a lot easier to catch up than to break new ground when it comes to gdp per capita.
mytailorisrich•1h ago
Success, yes it has survived. But it has cost a lot to people and countries.
keiferski•3h ago
One of the biggest effects of this will probably be increased Western tourism to the resort cities on the Black Sea coast. Which is good, I guess, for the local economy - but I did really enjoy how Burgas felt different from the typical Western coastal resort city when I visited. I hope it doesn’t lose that uniqueness as it integrates into the wider EU economy.
alexey-salmin•2h ago
I haven't been to Burgas but Montenegro still feels rather different IMO. Probably it has to do more with local culture and with GDP per capita rather than the currency itself (even though you're right that the latter may slowly evolve thanks to easier inflow of money).
keiferski•2h ago
Depends on where you’re at in Montenegro. Parts of it are definitely still different (the capital, Ulcinj and the south, rural areas) but some of the coastal cities are becoming very generic global luxury stores and mass tourism.

At least - that was my experience spending a couple months there 2-3 years ago.

W3zzy•1h ago
True, it felt a whole lot like Croatia near the coast of Montenegro save for the complemantairy ketchup they offer with pizza.
ingohelpinger•3h ago
the Euro has lost almost half of its purchasing power since its creation. bulgarians want the Euro so much, that they have to run tv ads, "we will become more wealthy by introducing the Euro", what? how will that happen, if you need more money to buy same or less products/services? lmao
ako•2h ago
Same for USD and other major currencies, as most countries have inflation around 2%. Only currency that has done significantly better is the swiss frank.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
if you think inflation rate is at 2% you must be living under a rock
tirant•1h ago
Historically other currencies have depreciated much more than the Euro. The LEV depreciated around 99% before being pegged to the Euro.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
Well, the Lev was pegged to the DM first, which was a way stronger currency.

The euro has depreciated more (in both real purchasing power and against other currencies) than the Deutsche Mark.

The DM was seen as one of the strongest and most stable post-WWII currencies, while the euro has struggled with crises and inflation.

Bulgaria pegging to the DM in 1997 meant anchoring to a much harder currency than what the euro has become.

v5v3•3h ago
On the one hand, countries with different economic strengths having the same currency managed centrally isn't ideal.

But on the other hand, anything that reduces the domination of the US dollar is welcome.

beAbU•1h ago
> On the one hand, countries with different economic strengths having the same currency managed centrally isn't ideal.

Isn't this kind of what the US is doing though?

3836293648•52m ago
Yes, and it isn't exactly helping all of America, even if it is helping America as a whole
lmm•36m ago
The US has a much more integrated economy - businesses operate nationwide, employees routinely move across the country, and most economic policy is set centrally. And even then there are still downsides where e.g. interest rates set to suit the national economy exacerbate the problems of the rust belt.
blahedo•2h ago
Random observation: I remember seeing the second round of euro bills and momentarily thinking, "EBPO? cool, but why did they add Cyrillic to the design?"

It was specifically for Bulgaria, the only EU country to use the Cyrillic alphabet. Eurozone membership was a distant thought at that point, but they knew they'd be in eventually. Now's the time!

darkhorn•2h ago
Because they wrote ΕΥΡΩ specifically only for Greece, the only country to use Greek alphabet.
Gare•2h ago
Technically, 2 EU countries: Greece and Cyprus.
darkhorn•2h ago
Right but back then Cyprus was not an EU member.
smallstepforman•2h ago
If abandoning your own currency and adopting Euros was such a big deal, the UK would have done it decades ago (while it was still a part of the EU).

This benefits the bigger economies, at the expense of the smaller economies. Any fiscal policy is dictated by the bigger countries, and with identical currencies, the only policy left for Bulgarians is to cut wages in public sector. This will impact local economy, and ripple through their society becoming poorer. And the bigger foreign corporations can ransack the place. Brilliant.

legulere•2h ago
The Bulgarian Lev is already pegged to the euro and was pegged to the DM before
gmueckl•1h ago
Is that why the lev tonUeor conversion rate is essentially the same ad DM to Euro?
decimalenough•56m ago
Yes. It's in fact exactly the same conversation rate, down to the last decimal, because back in the day 1 lev = 1 DM.
Maxion•1h ago
I wonder why this comment is at the top of the HN post.

Over the years I've seen a lot of missinformation on this topic that follows pretty much this exact train of thought. Why would countries join the EU and the Euro if it didn't benefit them?

The baltics have all grown massively since the 90s when they became independent, and even though they all were on nice trajectories they still all decided to join the EU and the Euro.

Bringing up the UK as some model for all other "small" european countrie sounds odd. The UK joined the EEC specifically because it had slower economic growth than the other large EU countries.

The UK, and specifically the city of london, with its huge international financial pull has a very different place in the global economy than Bulgaria...

marton78•1h ago
> Why would countries join the EU and the Euro if it didn't benefit them?

Joining benefits the country's elites, rather than its general populace -- and it's these elites who decide whether to join.

Bulgaria joining will weaken the Euro, which benefits big, export-oriented economies such as Germany and France. This is how the Euro has always worked: the big economies dilute their trade surpluses at the cost of smaller European countries.

hgomersall•37m ago
And the strong countries export their unemployment to the weak countries.
Strom•37m ago
> Joining benefits the country's elites, rather than its general populace -- and it's these elites who decide whether to join.

That's bullshit. The decision to join is made via referendum.

PunchTornado•12m ago
no proofs, just rephrasing what anti-eu propaganda says. also it is nice how people think they are able to dismiss a policy like the euro in 2 sentences thinking they understand it. probably without a phd in economics either.
ingohelpinger•1h ago
debt unions never work.
ChrisArchitect•1h ago
[dupe]

Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44412143

decimalenough•55m ago
Almost but not quite: today's news is that the European Central Bank has signed off on this.
storus•1h ago
Doubling of the prices overnight coming like in Croatia and many countries before it?
epolanski•1h ago
Yes there's an inflation shock at the beginning, then salaries and everything adjusts.
ReptileMan•1h ago
Probably a bad idea. The big economies of the eurozone have been in constant stagnation for the last 15 years. To me it seems that Bulgaria has jumped on Titanic on Qweenstown. I do hope that I am wrong, but those are the same people that made the plastic caps permanently attached to the bottles.
perching_aix•58m ago
> but those are the same people that made the plastic caps permanently attached to the bottles

It's still hilarious to me how upset people are at this (or at least pretend to be).

ReptileMan•51m ago
It is inconvenience for all, with at best minimal benefits, but it makes couple of bureaucrats and greens feel good about themselves. People are upset because it shows Brussels disfunction in a nutshell.
perching_aix•28m ago
But it really isn't that inconvenient at all, and some of the caps are outright better now than the crap that preceded them. Bit like how the toilet water use regulations turned out.

I even find myself vaguely annoyed now whenever I drink from glass bottles, that those caps are loose.

> People are upset because it shows Brussels disfunction

Reminds me to that meme where the debated point is what OS is better, and the conclusion is that normal people don't talk about operating systems. The only people I ever hear mention Brussels unprompted are rightwing grifters.

decimalenough•57m ago
Which is a bad idea because...?
ReptileMan•55m ago
>The big economies of the eurozone have been in constant stagnation for the last 15 years.

Eurozone doesn't know how to manage the economy successfully. The euro has been a failure. We went from somewhat parity with the US in 2006 to lagging quite behind them 20 years later.

decimalenough•50m ago
I was referring to the caps being attached to bottles part.

Also, a strong currency does not equate to a strong or well-managed economy. (Unless you're Donald Trump.)

ktsangop•42m ago
I hope Bulgaria and the EU have learned from past mistakes (I don't think they have). While EU and the Euro had good intentions and prospect, it turned out to be a disaster for some of us. Greece is in a recession for more than 16 years now, with no visible exit, because (one of many reasons of course) it couldn't devalue its currency back in 2009.

Now we might speculate that Greece couldn't have avoided this, even if it weren't for the Euro, but having lived this from the inside, I think that it wouldn't be that painful.

Countries like Japan, Italy and even USA nowdays, have comparable debt to GDP indexes, but none of them (as far as I undestand) have had this kind of dorp in living standards, price inflation or increase in poverty rates since 2008.

Best of luck to our Bulgarian neighbours. They are going to need it!

3D30497420•9m ago
The Greek economy is still in recession? The EC seems to think it is doing fairly well: https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/economic-surveillance-e...

Certainly better than Germany (however comparable the two economies can be): https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/economic-surveillance-e...

theodric•34m ago
Get ready for prices to increase significantly (but not necessarily orthogonally to income) just like they have in every other place that switched to the Euro

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