Measurement here might be better understood to "filter out" any parts of the wave that don't agree with the measurement. So a precise measurement will project out a lot of the wave, giving you something more localized and particle-like. A fuzzy measurement will project out only a bit of the wave, giving you something that's still spread out and quantum and wave-like.
I think we're just seeing decoherence in action here. If the photon interacts with the atom, it becomes entangled with the environment (the atom). Giving the atom a higher temperature results in it having a higher probability of it interacting with the photon, and decohering.
And I think the individual photon doesn't have a mixture of a certain % of wave or particle like nature. It's just that there is a certain probability that it will decohere (interact with the atom), so if you turn up the temperature of the atoms, you'll just see a greater % of the photons decohering when they interact with those atoms.
That's just my amateur understanding of the situation, so I'm happy to be corrected by someone who knows better. Also, I don't have access to the paper itself (https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/zwhd-1k2t) as it's paywalled and not on scihub.
Quantum mechanics is fascinating!
Waves are just probabilities and the human quantum computer brain collapses those probabilities in an orchestrated reductive capacity to create a certainty out of a probability.
https://profmattstrassler.com/2025/03/18/quantum-interferenc...
0: https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.70...
I feel like the type of detector would have a significant impact on the outcome of the experiment, but explanations for layman always leave it out.
habibur•6mo ago
Especially interested in "delayed choice quantum erasure experiment", where you decide to determine the "which path" after the photon has passed through the slits and hit the detector. And depending on your later decision the photon seems to rewrite history going back in time.
layer8•6mo ago
justonceokay•6mo ago
The short story “Story of your life” (that the movie Arrival is based on) uses this as a pseudo-argument for how the aliens could have a non-temporal understanding of reality.
Strilanc•6mo ago
You can see Feynman explaining mirrors this way in recorded lectures [1]. There's also a recent Veritaseum video explaining why the shortest paths dominate [2].
1: https://youtu.be/SsMYBWpsQu0?si=o1eAEvESwjroTke3&t=2251
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q10_srZ-pbs
tsimionescu•6mo ago
pdonis•6mo ago
Strilanc•6mo ago
pdonis•6mo ago
Strilanc•6mo ago
For example, note that the Huygens principle predates quantum mechanics by over 200 years [1]. As another example, diffraction gratings (which manifestly require interference between different paths) were being made in the mid 1800s [2] but in physics documentaries you never hear of people being confused about how to explain their behavior. Because they are explained by classical wave optics. Also see this lecture which talks about diffraction in the context of ray optics [3].
Where wave optics disagrees from quantum mechanics is in the dim-light limit, when you start resolving individual photons.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huygens%E2%80%93Fresnel_princi...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_grating
[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKPLfZ9JVQ&list=PLB1A0BF14E...
naasking•6mo ago
https://youtu.be/XcY3ZtgYis0?si=9TyD5-7B00WTLzOH
bookofjoe•6mo ago
— Richard Feynman
https://youtu.be/w3ZRLllWgHI?si=bX77FX6BLVnfCuq_
jimbosis•6mo ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJZ1Ez28C-A
EDIT: Whoops. The YouTube video linked by naasking in this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44771713 touches on the Veritasum video I linked to and goes to some length to explain that it is NOT proving the light is taking "all possible paths." He also brings up and links to a video on the "Looking Glass Universe" channel in which the hostess recreates the Vertiasium experiment and gives a differing interpretation. (Some commenters there have objections to the experimental setup. Oh boy, I may be down a rabbit hole here.)
justonceokay•6mo ago
The funny thing is that while the standard quantum explanation for this behavior is different than the situation I described in my post, it’s somehow even less intuitive than believing that the light “knew“ where to go before it left it’s source. Instead we are supposed to assume that it checked all possible directions and instantaneously made a (“correct”) decision.
I am fully aware that my sentences above are full of anthropomorphisms and are hopelessly classical. But in my classically oriented mind, my first way of describing the situation and you’re more correct way both involve a violation of what I would consider “causality”.
kgwgk•6mo ago
That sentence brought to my mind all those “How does the mirror know what’s behind the paper?” videos.
renox•6mo ago
What do you call an explanation? An interpretation of QM? There are dozens but none are especially satisfying..
As for the 'delayed choices' IMHO it is a poor interpretation of the data: see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQv5CVELG3U for example.
Uehreka•6mo ago
- The double slit experiment’s conclusions still hold, but:
- The particularly exciting and stark results of the Quantum Erasure experiment may have been misinterpreted or miscommunicated to the public, in particular:
- The presenter of PBS SpaceTime has said that he regrets certain things about how he worded his video on the Quantum Erasure experiment, and I think may have left a comment on the video to that effect.
Every time I look into QM, I keep coming back to the same fundamental axiom: “Quantum Mechanics’ weirdnesses can make otherwise straightforward things frustrating, but will never make interesting inventions possible.” Like how entanglement is able to break locality (which is frustrating) but without breaking causality (which would be interesting). If you hear about a quantum principle and think “Wow, I could use that to build X,” then it’s more likely that you’re not fully understanding the principle (not “you” specifically, I’ve fallen for this myself countless times).
The only exception seems to be Quantum Computing, but even that only arises out of a deep deep mathematical analysis (you can’t get to QC on your own from the things in popular science books) and is only applicable to really niche applications.
naasking•6mo ago
westurner•6mo ago
If it were possible to measure the phase of a photon after a beam splitter in a nondestructive way, shouldn't it be possible to determine whether measuring one causes state collapse in the other?
This says that photonic entanglement is polarization, and that photonic phase can be inferred from second order of intensity, IIUC:
"Bridging coherence optics and classical mechanics: A generic light polarization-entanglement complementary relation" (2023) https://journals.aps.org/prresearch/abstract/10.1103/PhysRev...
Shouldn't it then be possible to nondestructively measure photons and thus entanglement?
naasking•6mo ago
"Non-destructive measurement" is an oxymoron. It's not a real measurement if it doesn't destroy the coherence of entanglement. Weak measurements do destroy some entanglement, just not "all" of it.
westurner•6mo ago
If there were no loopholes to Bell's theorem I would agree.
> Weak measurements do destroy some entanglement, just not "all" of it.
IDK if that's true. Are all methods of observing probabilistic states destructive forms of measurement?
Does a camera on a candle diminish the candle, or does it take energy (and information) from the "wake" of the field moments or field disturbances?
I don't think that anyone realizes that it's possible to infer photonic phase from intensity (by Huygens-Steiner).
westurner•6mo ago
Which measure of degree of entanglement best characterizes state linkage across spacetime?
Depending on definition, doesn't a laser pointer entangle phase states across spacetime, but only slower than c (the speed of transverse photonic waves in a total vacuum)? Are the states synchronized with a constant delay?
Quantum discord: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_discord :
> In quantum information theory, quantum discord is a measure of nonclassical correlations between two subsystems of a quantum system. It includes correlations that are due to quantum physical effects but do not necessarily involve quantum entanglement.
Quantum mutual information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mutual_information
whoknowsidont•6mo ago
We use quantum principles to build things all the time. What are you talking about?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_sensor#Research_and_ap... is just a few examples.
Uehreka•6mo ago
glitchc•6mo ago
whoknowsidont•6mo ago
QM is not an umbrella term for sci-fi.
stevenwoo•6mo ago
brookst•6mo ago
I interpreted the comment to mean that at at first glance quantum effects get things like instantaneous, FTL communications… but those most dramatic possibilities never work out when you dig deeper.
Uehreka•6mo ago
If you have a graduate degree in quantum mechanics or work for Intel as a designer/engineer of microprocessors then yeah, you can consider yourself exempt.
stevenwoo•6mo ago
The title is inspired by that Carl Sagan quote from Cosmos, and the science is understandable for the most part by laypeople. There are science parts towards the end that I had to read a couple of times because it's just so unintuitive.
throw310822•6mo ago
Yet so far it failed to do any useful work, correct? As I understand it, even the recent "quantum supremacy" results were about performing a humongous number of useless computations.
jackmottatx•6mo ago
BoiledCabbage•6mo ago
QC would turn out to be the biggest bust in physics (after string theory of course).
thom•6mo ago
Devilspawn6666•6mo ago
Quantum tunneling is key to many devices as well.
Then of course there's the reality that the mere existence of everything we see around us - the stability of atoms themselves - requires quantum mechanics.
baobun•6mo ago
scoopdewoop•6mo ago
This video blew my mind wide open about the double slit experiment by showing the simpler case, the single slit experiment, and I think it clears up a LOT! Sadly, I can't do the explanation any justice
kgwgk•6mo ago
Why Delayed Choice Experiments do NOT imply Retrocausality
David Ellerman
University of California/Riverside
October 16, 2014
There is a fallacy that is often involved in the interpretation of quantum experiments involving a certain type of separation such as the: double-slit experiments, which-way interferometer experiments, polarization analyzer experiments, Stern-Gerlach experiments, and quantum eraser experiments. The fallacy leads not only to flawed textbook accounts of these experiments but to flawed inferences about retrocausality in the context of delayed choice versions of separation experiments.
gtowey•6mo ago
But again, I am not a physicist. Just an enthusiastic outside observer.
halfcat•6mo ago
Oh wow. So the particle and wave are like a planet and its gravity (in a sort of loosely analogous way)?
jostylr•6mo ago
But the particle does not generate the wave. There is one wave function governing the whole universe. It is a function on the 3n-dimensional configuration space of all of the particle positions. To find the velocity of a given particle at a given time, one needs to put in the position of all of the particles of the universe. Practically speaking, in an experimental setup, the macro state of the environment is sufficient to create an effective wave function of the particle which is how we can effectively use quantum mechanics on a subsystem of the universe. The collapse of the wave function in measurements is a reflection that once the little system interacts enough with the environment, then the separate environmental configurations have separated out the behavior of the wave relative to the one particle so that an effective collapse wave function can be used.
This plugging in the configuration of all the particles is a gross violation of a relativistic outlook (what is the universal now?). Bell after seeing Bohm's theory immediately grasped the implications and wanted to know if that nonlocality could be removed. His work, along with EPR, was to demonstrate that there was no theory of any kind that could avoid the non locality if results of experiments actually happen when we think they do.
The double slit experiment is perfectly explained by the approximate wave function of the 1 particle system going through both slits and interfering with itself while the particle is guided by that wave which is why there is an interference pattern that builds up out of particular particle dots. There is nothing other than practical difficulties to make the wave separation happen later but have outcomes as if it didn't; it is all about what the wave function is doing as the particle is most likely to be where |psi|^2 dictates it to be. That is what the law of motion assures. One could theoretically simulate the paths conforming to make this happen though the paths themselves could have quite unexpected behavior.
There are various extensions to Bohmian mechanics to deal with particle creation, annihiliation, quantum field theory, and relativistic versions. None are as complete as non-relativistic quantum mechanics in having a mathematically proven existence, but a large part of that is quantum field theory being unsound; the Bohmian part is not a problem. There are avenues being pursued to solve the quantum field theory infinite divergences using Bohmian insights (basically use wave functions that respect probability flowing along with particle creation and annihilation). The work is promising but difficult.
For the relativistic versions, it is easy enough to create a foliation of space-time to create a "now". There are even versions where the foliation is created out of what is already existing structure. Mathematically it seems fine as far as I know. But philosophically, it is weird to have an invisible fundamental structure existing that seemingly contradicts the main lesson of relativity.
ziofill•6mo ago
A delayed choice setup is not too dissimilar than a Bell inequality violation experiment. The weirdness there is that you can set things up such that no signal can travel between the systems being measured, and yet the outcomes are more correlated than any classical joint state can be.
So the conclusion is that either locality fails (i.e. it’s not true that outcomes on one side are independent of how you measure the other side) or realism fails (i.e. you can’t assign values to properties before the measurement, or in other words a measurement doesn’t merely “reveal” a pre-existing value: the values pop into existence in a coordinated fashion). Both of these options are crazy, and yet at least one of them must be true.
FollowingTheDao•6mo ago
If you’ve ever looked into the theory of Orch-OR I’m sure you’d understand what I’m talking about. The minute you think of the quantum being different from the classical is where the problems begin.
Classical physics is the only process we have to understand quantum physics. Our brains are quantum computers that collapse wave functions so we can navigate the universe. And by collapsing the wave function I just mean we make a probability the best certainty we can.
Light as a wave is a probability. Light as a particle is a certainty.
JBits•6mo ago
incompatible•6mo ago
Edit: the Bell experiment is something else. It's like a wave can exist as an entity outside of time and space and only comes back to reality when it interacts. Perhaps it would make sense for electromagnetic waves if the distance and local time elapsed contracts to zero per relativity when travelling at the speed of light.
marcosdumay•6mo ago
The problem with the double slit (and Bell inequality) is that real things that we can see are correlated, not about mixed states and state erasure.
xelxebar•6mo ago
Or statistical independence fails, no? The CHSH derivation, for example, requires commuting expectation value with conjunction and similar for other Bell-like's that I'm aware of.
This always gets pooh-poohed away with with vague appeals to absurdism, "Alice and Bob's free will blah blah", but I don't really know of a priori reasons why the global state space needs to be Hilbert instead of a more complicated manifold with some Bell-induced metric. If you know of prior art here, I'd love some pointers.
ziofill•6mo ago
xelxebar•6mo ago
Jump up an abstraction layer.
Multiplication and addition are each commutative, but performing multiplication followed by addition is not the same as addition followed by multiplication (in the real numbers), so they don't commute. Said another way, the operation of composing multiplication with addition isn't commutative.
Similarly, we can perform various operations on random variables, one being expectation value and another being multiplication (or conjunction): E(X•Y) ≠ E(x)•E(y) unless x and y are independent, so E and • don't commute.
When we say "commute" we often are directly or indirectly thinking of commutative diagrams, which capture a very general which of commutativity and allows us to precisely write down all the above.
Fun fact: associativity is also just commutativity of binary operator composition.
ziofill•6mo ago
xelxebar•6mo ago
More that the measurement settings could be correlated somehow. So called "cosmic Bell tests" try to push back how far said correlations would have to be, though, by determining measurement settings from distant antipodal astronomical objects, e.g. see the famous Rauch paper [0].
On the surface it seems a bit absurd to consider conspiracies from 7 billion years ago, but that's the whole deal with conservation laws, which introduce correlations between otherwise free parameters and constrain the state space to some submanifold.
[0]:https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.12...
joe-collins•6mo ago
somat•6mo ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDtAh9IwG-I (Huygens Optics -How big is a visible photon?)
appease7727•6mo ago
Which honestly I find to be pretty flimsy reasoning. It's almost ontological: causality is preserved because we can't prove that it isn't.
I know it's more complex than that, but it still feels like papering over a hole in our theories.
moi2388•6mo ago
Because you are definitely not rewriting history, and absolutely nothing is traveling back in time whatsoever.