I have no proof, only suspicion. You can easily skirt “The Algorithm” using VPNs and get vastly different content.
"Israel ranks 3rd in the most posts targeted by TDRs out of any country.
"On a per-capita basis, Israel ranks 1st in the most posts targeted by TDRs, and has 3 times more TDR targeted posts per-capita than the country with the 2nd most submissions.
"Its important to contextualize this with the fact that almost all governments reporting to Meta primarily censor citizens of their own countries. Israel is the exception as only 1.3% of its takedown requests are actually targeted towards Israeli’s (14th most targeted country).
"For reference, 63% of Malaysia TDRs target Malaysian content, and 95% of Brazil’s TDRs target Brazilian content"
(Back to me): They are saying that Israel is doing this at a huge scale and, very unusually, almost exclusively targeting people in other countries.
The leakers speculate that Israel is doing this at at scale that is poisoning Meta's ML filtering inputs, so that they are now, without direct Israeli involvement, Meta is carrying on their own censorship of other countries. Since Israel's active TDR's produced the vast bulk of recent terrorism related TDRs, the leakers think that almost all of the 38 million Facebook posts that were censored automatically by Facebook ML for terrorism reasons during the period since the Simchat Torah attacks were because of this poisoning, but here they are drawing more on inference than direct evidence.
I had not realized the scale of the program here, or that they were targeting external countries like this, so I (someone reasonably familiar with Facebook's moderation) learned something from reading this.
If the content which Israel reported to meta was truly pro-terror, then surely there's no problem here - a nation who is the target of a terrorist group, can spend their taxes reducing pro-terror group content online. It's only a problem if, as the report alleges, the content was not pro-terror, but that's not actually evidenced anywhere
To quote: "Of the 1,050 cases reviewed for this report, 1,049 involved peaceful content in support of Palestine that was censored or otherwise unduly suppressed, while one case involved removal of content in support of Israel."
This leak aims at looking at the bigger picture across all of Meta's 3 billion users.
Of course, Meta can chose examples of actually violating posts removed and show that as counter proof, or even posts that are violating that are not yet removed. But anyone familiar with how ML models work knows that false positives / false negatives exists.
Its the degree to which the ML models primarily censor almost any content related to Israel/Palestine, the systemic nature of targeting specific countries, such as Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, and the fact that per-capita, Israel is the country that most abuses the content enforcement system (3x more than any other country).
No, meta don't need to prove anything to anyone.
It's you who alleges that the content should have stayed up, so what's your evidence?
You're telling me I need to go and read a HRW pdf instead? Okay where is that?
check "illustrative examples" section.
Unfortunately links to individual posts can't be accessed as the posts themselves are removed. The HRW report is excellent as they documented this individual cases and recorded them.
All data collected is directly from Meta, and the whisteblowers themselves are open to sharing this data with any authority or court willing to look into this. Everything is well documented. Where and how the data was obtained is also documented as well.
Or alternatively, you can wait for the next leak.
I’m surprised the Israelis are so capable with intelligence, yet bungled this so much that not one post they pointed out was violent?
I’m happy to stand corrected, but when someone shows a perfect record in a data review I’m naturally suspicious.
EDIT: I’m confusing the linked PDF and HRW’s report. But I still have doubts about HRW’s numbers.
The pdf says there's a 95% accept rate on their takedown requests. They use that as evidence of censorship but, to me, that looks like evidence of judicious requests that meta agrees with.
Without data on what was taken down, there's no way to explain the difference. There's no reason not to make the entire dataset public (anonymized if you'd like but, since the content is implied to be benign, what's the harm in not?) and show some examples.
The implication that, because Israel submits the most requests that they must be acting in bad faith makes sense only of all countries had an equal amount of content generated that they'd like filtered. It's very easy for me to believe that Israel would have more content directed towards it that violated the Meta TOS.
Oppressed people have the right to violence just because they're brown doesn't make them "terrorists," that's actually quite the racist worldview.
Would you say that this list is incorrect? Or that any attack on civilians in Israel is justified and thus not a terrorist attack?
You sound racist and like you're ok enabling the killing of children. As a doctor Tarek Loubani reported today "I've been to many wars, it has never felt like the war is against children"
And BTW, you don’t know me personally, ad hominem attacks just weaken your argument
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sunday_(1937)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_al-Shaykh_massacre
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zzFlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=MIkN...
Why did you make this assertion?
And what makes them terrorist attacks?
But when your favorite wannabe ethnostate illegaly steals land and starves 18000 children that's not terrorism that's them defending themselves from terrorism.
You're racist and it enables you to be illogical. You claim to care about civilians but Israel has killed way more civilians and in horrific ways. Whether you think that's an ad-hominem is a choice, it's an accurate statement about your worldview.
Let me teach you a little bit about Israel. 20% Arabs with same rights as Jews, with government representation. 50% of Jews in Israel come from Arab countries (they were ethnically cleansed from their home countries) so they are the exact color of Palestinians, if not even “brownier” (if the color is so important to you).
Israel has more diversity than most European countries. All citizens have the same rights. Sexual orientation, gender, religion and race are protected by laws.
Keep washing that brain and telling yourself you're so moral.
It, frankly, pales in comparison to the number of civilians the IDF has killed and is currently killing. No amount of terrorist attacks can justify starving a population or dropping bombs on the tents of refuges.
Like, I'm sorry, but an attack in 2024 that injures 20 people and an attack in 2023 that kills 1000 is simply not comparable. There are literally 1000s dying weekly right now in gaza. The IDF is daily shooting starving children that go to the Israel's ran aid sites.
Israel does not have the right to commit genocide.
I find the "what-about"ism somewhat tiring at this point. What Israel is currently doing is unconscionable.
This is really not unlike trying to criticize the war crimes committed during the Warsaw uprising or the actions of John Brown. Were they wrong? Yes. Were they understandable? Absolutely. Bringing them up whenever someone brings up the actions of the Nazis or the slave owners is what's problematic. It tries to strip away the humanity of people that are being slaughtered in order to justify the slaughtering.
Did you need to point out that error? You can see why we'd read your response as running cover for a state actively committing genocide, right?
So having a random person on the internet explicitly lying about these experiences and having other people upvoting him kind of grinds my gears.
Now, do you condemn the genocide? Because the problem here is that even though you've experienced a traumatic event, 1000s of Palestinians who never shot at or bombed your family are being shot at, bombed, and starved.
Do you acknowledge the Palestinian right to exist?
I wish what happened wouldn’t have. On oct 7 and in Gaza. But people keep forgetting that we still have living hostages in tunnels under Gaza, and we can’t accept a militarized Gaza anymore.
For the last 2 years there are 2 principles that have not changed. Hamas should return the hostages and surrender its arms. The moment that happens the war is over. It could’ve happened 2 years ago and this thousands of deaths could’ve been avoided. But until that happens, the war continues.
So I don’t believe there’s genocide, as it precludes explicit desire. There’s war. And it will end the moment Hamas want it to.
I don't think brown people trying to save themselves from a concentration camp are terrorists, therefore the terrorist state of israel is not the target of a terrorist group. In fact how could they be when it is them that are invading Gaza for 40+ years.
I know you're not this stupid, you're just racist.
Now, if you'd address the 8,000,000lb elephant in the room that would be great.
I’ve never understood this argument: if you don’t want to participate in a discussion, then don’t, but why stop others from doing so? No one is obligated to click into the comments section, read, or take part in any discussion on HN. Even when discussions get heated, in my experience they’re still better than similar discussions elsewhere on the internet.
> Of course plenty of stories are killed because they go against the narrative that a particular reader likes, so there definitely is some censorship
I think this is the main reason for flagging.
Israel have claimed the title to start worlds first live stream genocide. It took them long time to get to where they are and know they will be forgiven.
It's crazy to think but is true, they have normalized killing of Palestinians.
This post is ranked very low, most likely it's getting lots of down vote.
It's also worth noting that there are two very different groups of people sharing information about what's happening in Gaza:
1) People internationally who would like to see international laws enforced against Israel (and, likely, Hamas) given their conduct on October 7th, 2023 and later
2) People who have a real problem with the existence of Israel on a basis that have far less to do with international law and norms and far more to do with its nature as a Jewish state.
This makes it harder to moderate content about what's happening in the region to everyone's satisfaction.
Explicit ethnostates are against law and norms.
If you're not Han in the PRC, they're going to try to "normalize" you in the direction of acting like you're Han. If you're not ethnic Russian, same with you in Russia. The only way to keep the former Yugoslavia from continuing to be a bloodbath was by essentially setting up ethnostates. And, yes, all of them use or have used violence to enforce these conditions.
Israel wasn't even an explicitly declared ethnostate between 2009 and 2017.
Additionaly, regardless of how China runs its affairs the truth is that ethnostates are highly Anti-American. It's fundamentally contradictory to our way of life. However China chooses to run its own affairs, the United States should not be providing such enormous amounts of support to a state that is run so contrarily to our own values as we do for Israel.
Tell that to the Uyghurs they were re-educating.
> Israel wasn't even an explicitly declared ethnostate between 2009 and 2017.
They should go back to that then, but at the heart of it, you'd still have a mostly Jewish populace. Kind of like how the state that Hamas or Fatah would like to establish would be mostly Palestinian Arab.
> Additionaly, regardless of how China runs its affairs the truth is that ethnostates are highly Anti-American. It's fundamentally contradictory to our way of life. However China chooses to run its own affairs, the United States should not be providing such enormous amounts of support to a state that is run so contrarily to our own values as we do for Israel.
Most of the countries in the world are ultimately ethnostates or have political factions and geography seriously impacted by ethnic groupings. Don't believe me? Go suggest to about any European or Asian group that some other ethnic group get majority control of their land, resources, and government. They'll be reluctant at best.
Israel can either be aligned with the western sphere of influence or not, but belonging to it has some requirements and not being an ethnostate is definitely one of them.
Now it may be the case that Israel would rather leave that spot and remove itself from those norms, but given its history that'd be tantamount to suicide.
Most of the West is made up of nations that are, to at least some degree, ethnostates. If they aren't explicitly ethnostates, then they have large political blocs that grew out of ethnic groups. See: Sinn Fein, Bloc Québécois, Scottish National Party, Basque Nationalist Party, Republican Left of Catalonia, Plaid Cymru, and others.
Most of the above listed seek to exercise political power in a given region based on ethnicity. Some even have large delegations to regional or national legislative bodies. All are in countries generally identified as Western.
Even some of what you would define a country as, generally speaking, is somewhat influenced by ethnic factors like language and religion.
Thus, my point is that your claim of personal experience as an American doesn't really have much bearing on the question of the scale of the censorship here. They are trying to bring to life censorship that is largely happening away from Americans, where Facebook historically doesn't exercise the same levels of care and respect for speech that they do with Americans (see Haugen's Facebook Files leaks).
I've also got to say that this article has apparently been flagged out twice already seems to be in line with the point of the original article. I know from experience that Facebook moderation discussions don't usually attract this level of flagging, so I'm pretty sure that this has to be related to Israel/Palestine, not Facebook.
- From 7amleh: Erased and Suppressed: Palestinian Testimonies of Meta's Censorship: https://7amleh.org/post/erased-and-suppressed-palestinian-te...
- AJ+ documentary "Inside Israel's Influence on Meta": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12btf2Oq820
ICW claims to be an "organization of independent journalists", but typos and grammatical errors are rampant, which I wouldn't expect from actual professional writers - unless the term "journalist" is being abused here.
Along those lines, serious journalists would not attempt to blackmail a multibillion dollar company like this:
> The motivation behind these leaks is the following: Stop all involvement with the Israeli government and their current genocide in Gaza. Until then, more leaks will be dropped. With each leak exposing a different aspect of corruption from censorship, to AI, to financial crimes.
The actual contents of the "leaks" aren't really new - the Israeli government has been making sweeping takedown requests to Meta to suppress material related to the war in Gaza. This was already well-known - see, for instance, HRW's report on this from 2023, itself cited in this report.
What makes this sensationalist is the conspiratorial thinking that follows and is embedded throughout.
There's certainly something interesting and dystopian about how Meta uses machine learning to extrapolate from successful human-verified takedown requests to begin automating acceptance of takedown requests, and how this creates, as an inevitable consequence, a kind of "censorship machine". But this is framed (without evidence) as a kind of "data poisoning" conspiracy - the Israeli intelligence agencies and perhaps Meta in tandem working to deliberately ensure this censorship is automated. When, of course, even if Meta wasn't using machine learning to automate this process, the Israeli agencies would almost certainly still be issuing these sweeping requests. And, conversely, with or without the Israeli takedown requests, there's no doubt Meta would be using ML to automate the takedown process at their scale. No conspiracy is necessary - the authors might do well to read Manufacturing Consent.
Even more absurdly, they "hypothesis [sic]" that "Israeli government [sic] must have insiders at Meta’s integrity organization in the form of individual contributor engineers who advised the Israeli cyberunit on how to abuse the content moderation system."; no evidence is presented for this claim.
Silly accusations and inferences like this are strewn throughout the paper, such as when it expresses shock that the Israeli government uses a form letter to submit the takedown requests.
It also veers outright into "10/7 Truther" territory:
> Throughout this reporting dataset, we see massive drops in reports on every 7th day. This of course corresponds to Shabbat or Saturday, the day which Jews refrain from work activities. However, October 7 2023 is also on Shabbat, so it's interesting to see that on this day of rest, and facing an overwhelming attack: 1. Both the IDF cyberunit division and Israeli attorney’s office were prepared and collaborating on that day to message Meta out of all organizations. 2. The IDF cyberunit division already had developed a new strategy of censoring countries that are not even involved in the attack like Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan.
The obvious explanation for this is that it's precisely because they were "facing an overwhelming attack" that the Israelis were working on the weekend. It's not surprising in the slightest that they had emergency procedures, either.
The HRW report had its own issues, but it was at least a serious attempt by serious people to understand the scale of the Israeli operation. By comparison, this is amateur work by amateurs.
That turns you from a "legitimate" whistleblower (like Snowden) into an activist (at best) in my eyes.
Do they think that the police in Israel don’t work on Saturday? Does the CIA stops working on sundays? If they tried to visit Tel Aviv on Saturday they would see how lovely it is.
The data recorded shows this in figure 9, regardless of ones opinion on whether Israeli's take this holiday off or not.
This trend is consistent prior to Oct7, during the initial first couple of weeks of the conflict, and beyond. On Saturdays, there are zero to very few takedown requests related to other days.
Do you have any trend correlating terror attack in Israel and takedown requests?
Let me know if you have any further questions.
> You can continue to do terrible things as a company, just as long as you don’t do it with Israel
That's a weird thing to say. I certainly don't agree and would like to hear the rationale of anyone who supports that view.
Is the implication that everything anti-Israel - regardless of its merit or truth - should be upvoted and praised, or at least never in any way criticized? That, to me, feels a lot weirder.
You don't understand that in the face of genocide people cling on to anything? Some times even, yes even! gasp, if the article has typos?
Obviously, none of this matters if you don't actually care about the contents of the work, only its political purpose (not even how effective it is at achieving that). But if you don't actually care about the contents of the work, why are you even discussing it?
This is just one leak related to censorship and Israel. There are still more.
As you can see from our post timelines, I spend months doing this kind of investigative work. And it takes 100+ hours to do a proper investigation, let alone write the actual report.
You can check out our previous investigations here:
The Youtube Algorithm and Manufacturing Consent (https://archive.org/details/youtube-icw) - We collected the worlds largest Youtube recommendation dataset using a custom built watch bot. We concluded that almost all Youtube users are 1-click away from far-right radicalizing videos.
What can we learn from the Andrew Tate data breach (https://archive.org/details/tate_data_breach/) - We looked at the leaks of Andrew Tate's school and calculated through simulations exactly how much money he was making from the project, and allude to what this may mean for his taxes. We also run a state-of-the-art analysis into what kind of posts people make there, as well as survey the user demographics.
We do not currently have a website. And have had $0 funding so far. So entirely out of pocket. From the beginning we opened donations via BTC and ETH, but didn't receive anything yet.
I am NRU (alias) the lead investigator with a background in AI. I am currently driving the entire investigation for these projects. I occasionally collaborate with Drop Site News and BBC for some of the work we do.
Furthermore I've started hearing people calling it "the Palestinian Holocaust" (I think it's entirely fitting). Israel has owned that word for very long as has used it as an asset that they milk. It's about time they lose ownership.
> 50% of all the Jews worldwide were wiped out by their own countrymen during the holocaust. Less than 5% of Gaza was killed. Russia lost more than 10% of its population in WW2, would that be considered holocaust?
If you wanna throw numbers at me you need to first clarify what percentage of innocent killing you find acceptable.
Also, your disingenuity (implying without stating that 5% is small) already convinced me that you're not in good faith, so this wouldn't be productive anyway.
But if we want to continue this thread it appears that most wars in urban areas have a ratio of 30-90% civilian casualties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
Yeah, it's more complicated than that, I'm glad you agree.
Can you also say jews in germany were at war during WW2?
On my FB wall Israel is losing. I see several pro-Palestinians posts every day and I am yet to see one pro Israel one.
Not a single one came from my friend or people in my groups. I am not interested in seeing neither side's propaganda.
@dang and team
I think the community would be interested to know the activity around this post, including moderation efforts. I’ve been doing cursory refreshes and seeing what I would consider “brigading”, but I could just be paranoid.
Anyone else have the same questions? I’ll be emailing later and encourage others to do the same.
We would all love to see a report on unusual activity in regards to posts on Gaza.
These might not be state actors, but like you said, a blind man can see that when someone's comment on genocide is "the article has so many typos", that person already started out with the conclusion.
As mentioned in my reply to you downthread, the issue with the typos - as is clear from the comment itself - is that it belies the authors' claims of being actual "journalists". If they had been upfront and described themselves as Russian hackers or whatever it wouldn't really have been of note. But, in terms of credibility, this becomes something of a double-sin: to claim that you're a journalist implies that you adhere to a certain set of journalistic ethics; to lie about being a journalist means that not only do you not adhere to those ethics, it also means that you're a liar, which makes all of your claims suspect. I think calling this out on an HN post is worthwhile.
Second of all, it may the longest comment on the thread, but it's never been a particularly popular one, so I wouldn't draw too many inferences about foreign influence on HN from it. The post's karma, which I care way too much about, has wavered between -1 and I think 2, which doesn't exactly suggest there's a whole lot of brigading going on for my benefit.
That doesn't imply that there's no brigading going on on HN - dang knows more about that than I do. Clearly Israel engages in attempting to control the narrative online, and there's clearly spaces on Reddit for example where they succeed quite well. HN is quite a bit smaller and more carefully moderated, though. That said, I've been on HN for a while, so I guess I'll say that I've noticed it's not hard for a post to get flagged; it wouldn't surprise me at all if something as contentious as the textbook example for contentious topics could organically end up getting flagged/vouched back to life a lot.
> a blind man can see that when someone's comment on genocide is "the article has so many typos", that person already started out with the conclusion.
Of course, it goes without saying, but that's not my "comment on genocide", nor is it more than a fraction of a fraction of my comment on the article itself. I don't really appreciate the strawman, and I'll point out that in your comments to me you explicitly vouch for starting from the conclusion, so I think you might be projecting.
Here is their reply (quote): "Looks like user vouches outweighed user flags, at least for now."
I am not familiar with how hackernews works, but this is what ChatGPT returned on this:
""" On Hacker News, not all users have the ability to vouch for others. Typically, vouching is restricted to users who have achieved a certain level of trust or reputation within the community. This means that only established users, often those with a higher karma score or a longer history of positive contributions, can vouch for others.
If you find that you cannot vouch for someone, it may be because you haven't met the necessary criteria set by Hacker News. The platform aims to maintain the quality of endorsements, ensuring that only credible users can influence the reputation of others. If you're looking to vouch in the future, focusing on contributing positively to discussions and building your karma can help you reach that level. """
Hopefully more users see your quote.
" Sorry, this post was removed by Reddit’s filters. "
icw_nru•4h ago
*EDIT: It looks at 30 minutes in this post got flagged. Likely brigaded by mass downvote bots.
Any mod can take a look?
pavlov•4h ago
FirmwareBurner•3h ago
Bengalilol•3h ago
icw_nru•3h ago
myrmidon•3h ago
Are there random (or cherry picked) examples of censored content somewhere? Is anything known about the selection process (just keyword based? more sophisticated?).
This talks about the dangers of manipulating public opinion and poisoning future automatic classifications, but how effective were the 'Israelis specifically with that (on a spectrum from "censors everything that contains the words river+sea" to "picks censorship targets strategically in order to shift discourse/opinion in favor of Israel")?
icw_nru•3h ago
However, on aggregate, the majority of posts taken down are from middle eastern countries, and are mostly arabic language.
Please see "random/cherry picked" examples from human rights watches report mentioned in the bottom of the article.
To quote: "Of the 1,050 cases reviewed for this report, 1,049 involved peaceful content in support of Palestine that was censored or otherwise unduly suppressed, while one case involved removal of content in support of Israel."