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Leeches and the Legitimizing of Folk-Medicine

https://press.asimov.com/articles/leeches-and-the-legitimizing-of-folk-medicine
23•mailyk•3d ago

Comments

Mikhail_Edoshin•3h ago
I remember reading a memoir of a manual therapist who described his work with Ida Rolf. Rolf discovered a specific approach to massage, "rolfing". It appeared very effective, she had a number of apprentices and followers and she was interested in clinical testing and such. Turned out that it would be very expensive. With all her money she could maybe afford a couple small-scale trials. She decided money could be better spent elsewhere.
troupo•2h ago
"We have no evidence how well this works, or if it works at all, but we must agree that leeches are good because a recovering alcoholic's mother suggested he try leeches like they do in quixotic Russia. Don't dismiss them because this other completely unrelated treatment also originated in folk medicine (don't ask us how many quack folk medicines are bullshit)"
karamanolev•2h ago
I have an interesting story with non-scientific medicine. Normally, I'm a very science-oriented person—"read the paper or it didn't happen." I will even avoid reading a news article about the paper; I'll just go and read the paper itself. The way I treat my illnesses and injuries is the same. That being said, I suffer a lot from sore throats—I will get some flu, get better in 3–4 days, and then my throat will hurt for weeks. In a particularly bad bout, I tried waiting for 2 weeks with no improvement. I almost couldn't swallow. I went to the doctor and was prescribed antibiotics. That resolved it in about 24 hours, and I completed the full course. Three weeks later, the same thing happened. I waited 2 weeks to see if it would resolve on its own, and when it didn’t—antibiotics again. Of course, the problem came back only weeks later.

So I thought—I'm going to try homeopathy. What's the worst that can happen? I'm in pain anyway. I decided to try a scientific approach (not very, given N=1), so again I waited 2 weeks to see if it was going to resolve itself. It didn’t. I went to a homeopathic doctor and got a bottle with some "magic." It took 3–4 days for the symptoms to improve, but they didn’t come back for months. When they did, I jumped straight to the homeopathic medicine, and it helped in the same way it did the first time around. I haven’t used antibiotics for my throat since.

I have no explanation for this. There have been hundreds or thousands of studies on homeopathy, and my reading is that the consensus is that it's "quack medicine." Yet it clearly worked for me, and it worked better than antibiotics for that particular issue. What gives?

lukan•1h ago
No one ever said homeophaty has no effect. But there is no evidence it works beyond being a placebo.. which is what I suspect happened also in your case, whether your consciouss mind believes in homeopathy or not. You gave it a chance, so some parts of your mind decided it will magically work, so it did.

Oh and unlike homeopathy, leeches have a real effect besides placebo.

agos•1h ago
placebo is not that effective
lukan•1h ago
Do you assume that, or did you read about it in studies?
arkey•1h ago
Placebo is by definition highly subjective, and not even in the sense of one's opinion, but rather that it works or not at a subject level.
freilanzer•49m ago
Yes, it is. People have gotten better after having been told by someone in a labcoat that what they're taking is a placebo.
griffzhowl•11m ago
That wouldn't explain the difference in effect between the antibiotics and the homeopathy
boxed•1h ago
It could be that you didn't get real homeopathic medicine. There's been quite a few cases of babies dying after being given "homeopathic" medicine. Because real homeopathic medicine is indeed quack science, literally diluting a substance to the degree of one molecule per a sphere of water the size of the entire solar system, but homeopathic producers are grossly immoral and stupid/bad and unregulated, so can contain high, in some cases deadly, doses of various substances.

TLDR:

Homeopathic medicine is, in theory, 100% safe, since it's literally nothing.

Homeopathic medicine is, in theory, 100% ineffective, since it's literally nothing.

Homeopathic medicine is, in practice, rolling the dice with unregulated producers that have been known to ship poisons.

graemep•56m ago
I think this is the most probable explanation.

Homeopathic medicine is based on the same principles as sympathetic magic. You might as well ask someone to cast a spell.

https://pietersz.co.uk/2013/07/homeopathy-magic

There have been similar problems with dilution of herbal medicines, but of course herbs do often have medicinal properties.

arkey•1h ago
Interesting, you're describing exactly what I went through a few years ago.

In my case, however, I turned to pure ginger infusions, following the advice of a herbalist. Haven't gone through it again so far, plus it also works great for colds and flu.

merksoftworks•1h ago
So, gingerol is anti inflammatory. Fun fact, so is allicin, which is produced by garlic. You get a lot of medicine that looks quite a bit like quack medicine - for instance people making garlic extract: https://www.allicin-c.com/?AFFID=549212

But then you end up with peer reviewed studies which indicate some anti-viral properties of garlic: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7434784/

arkey•1h ago
> You get a lot of medicine that looks quite a bit like quack medicine

It depends what you understand by "quack medicine".

To me, in the beginning, all the stuff about drinking weird plants and doing homemade remedies did sound a bit quacky. But that was because of my absolute ignorance.

People have been using these remedies for thousands of years based on a deeper knowledge of nature than your random dude has, but we've fallen into a scam where we are made to feel that anything not made in a lab and costing a certain amount of money is nonsense.

Garlic, onion, ginger, turmeric, honey, echinacea, raspberry... those are natural wonders for basic natural medicine.

ajuc•1h ago
I have asthma, a few times I got an attack when I left my drugs at different home. Usually in such situation I have to go to a nightly doctor office (it always happens in the middle of the night on weekends).

But several times this happened I've been at my home and I have some old empty inhalers with 0 doses left and like 5 years past expiry date. I'm talking the disk inhaler, with discreet capsules of the drug that get used on every application - so if there were any traces of the drug substance - it would have been very small amounts that stuck to the inhaler walls or whatever.

I still used it and it stopped the asthma attack just as well as the real thing.

Placebo is one hell of a drug.

Similarly - even just preparing to go to the doctor in the middle of the night lessens the asthma attack for me. Just before I go to the doctor waiting in the queue the symptoms are often very minor.

hackingonempty•51m ago
> I have no explanation for this.

One possibility that RCTs are designed to eliminate is "regression to the mean." If the natural course of disease is to wax and wane and you intervene whenever the disease is waxing it can seem like your intervention is effective even when it has no specific effect.

In addition, placebos produce a small effect even when you know you are taking a placebo.

unnamed76ri•20m ago
I’ve been on meds that wreck my immune system and so I get sick a lot. Every time I start feeling the smallest tickle of an upper respiratory virus I start doing the following: 1. Gargle with salt water 3x a day 2. Use saline nasal rinses 2x a day

I still get sick a lot, but haven’t needed antibiotics in all the years I’ve kept to this routine.

griffzhowl•14m ago
There is a null hypothesis which isn't ruled out: it would take two weeks plus 3-4 days for your sore throat to resolve itself, but you were waiting only two weeks each time, taking your timings at face value.

Still, that doesn't explain why the symptoms return sooner after antibiotics than with homeopathy. The body is complicated and there are many variables.

Do you drink alcohol? I'm wondering whether you consciously or subconsciously adjust how much you drink more during or after an antibiotics course than the homeopathy, or whether there's some similar confounding variable. Strong alcohol of course has some anti-bacterial properties (as well as some well-known side-effects which aren't so beneficial), but I don't really know what I'm talking about, just a thought that occurred

jfjfitttjtmt•2h ago
Maybe in next century we discover that "horse medicine" is very good against viral infections!
__alexs•1h ago
I think we should really just stop asking if "the old ways" actually work or not as it seems entirely irrelevant to the people that seek them out most of the time. They are acts of pure ritual.
arkey•1h ago
Well that's a bit too much of a generalisation maybe?

Yes, there are old ways that have been proven wrong, which were based on ignorance at the time, but there are also old ways which are totally legit and are little known or accepted nowadays based on today's ignorance.

__alexs•36m ago
Take turmeric for example. It contains curcumin, a chemical that has quite good evidence for anti-inflammatory properties. However curcumin is not present in turmeric in clinically relevant quantities. People taking turmeric medicinally are not actually interested in the curcumin, if they were they would be taking a concentrated extract. They are interested in the ritual and cultural associations of turmeric.

In most cases when we do find evidence for something clinically relevant in traditional medicine we either discover that the effect is something other than it is traditionally associated with and/or that you need to take it at extreme doses for it to do anything at all.

arkey•9m ago
Fair enough. Two points here, then:

- From a strictly scientific standpoint, wouldn't it be interesting to properly understand why and how it works?

- From a purely practical standpoint, who cares about any of that if not only it works, but is also better and healthier than what you might get prescribed at the doctor's?*

* yes, in some cases, not all.

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Leeches and the Legitimizing of Folk-Medicine

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