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'No One Lives Forever' Turns 25 and You Still Can't Buy It Legitimately

https://www.techdirt.com/2025/11/13/no-one-lives-forever-turns-25-you-still-cant-buy-it-legitimately/
81•speckx•2h ago

Comments

ferguess_k•2h ago
NOLF2 is one of best and interesting FPS I played. I wish they remastered it.
shalmanese•1h ago
So say someone decides to produce a remaster of NOLF. Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing? If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?

If the potential victory from a lawsuit is $20K and Activision estimates it will cost them $50K to find this piece of paper, is the company relatively safe from a lawsuit?

mandevil•1h ago
They would need to prove that they have the rights to it to win court, yes. The chances of Activision actually pulling the trigger and suing if you made a remastered version are definitely less than 50-50. They'd have to actually have owned the rights in the first place, they still have the documentation to prove it, and that they'd find a suit a profitable idea? Let's say it's a 1/3 chance. That means if you publish it, you'd have a 2/3 chance of not getting sued by Activision, that can have a positive E(V) if you just go ahead and YOLO it.

But the killer is that WB and Fox (now Disney) also are sitting out there as maybe rights-holders. Let's say that each of them also has a 1/3 chance of suing and that they are all independent. Now you have a 8/27th chance of not getting sued- less than 1/3. So the expected value has to be twice as large as with a normal, single company situation to justify the increased risk of lawsuit from one of three companies. And so no one pencils out the choice as a good one, compared to the opportunity cost of working on some other game with a clearer rights situation.

shalmanese•1h ago
Why would you set the probability at 1/3rd? It feels closer to 1/100 at most.

They've admitted the documents, if they're anywhere, are buried in a file cabinet at Iron Mountain. You can set a lower limit on the amount of labor required to produce the document. Activision is not going to go on this quest if the labor required * chance of the document existing exceeds the amount they can win in a lawsuit.

bluGill•55m ago
It is reasonably sure that each party has a 90% chance of suing if they have rights. There is a 90% chance someone will send you a cease and desist just because all 3 are the type that will do it if they think they have rights. There is a reasonable chance more than 1 will send a cease and desist (some weaselly "we are still checking rights but if we have them your notice starts now - just enough to avoid fraud if it turns out they don't have rights)
shalmanese•49m ago
OK, but according to ChatGPT (so correct me if the AI is wrong), if you ignore the cease and desist, then the process goes into default judgement where the claimants now need to prove standing to collect judgement. You now know with 100% certainty that they need to hire someone to dig through a file vault at Iron Mountain to collect judgment and they're not going to bother doing that so the default judgement means nothing and you can go about your merry way ignoring their cease and desist.
bluGill•15m ago
I'm not a lawyer, but I believe that is wrong. Still consult a lawyer if you need real legal advice.

If you ignore the cease and desist their next step is to sue you in court where the lawyers fight it out. They can sue immediately, without a cease and desist at if they want. However the reason to do a cease and desist is it costs a lawyer just a few minutes to write one up, while court often costs millions of dollars - thus if you just stop doing something after the cheap letter it is typically best for them to ignore the what they could have got by taking you to court right away. They can bring a cease and desist to court and show that they gave you time to stop which looks good to the judge and can influence how much the judge awards if they win (if they lose the cease and desists is at best meaningless).

A default judgement is when they sue and nobody shows up in court. Because you don't defend yourself the courts just assume you are guilty (assuming the case isn't completely absurd). Sometimes you can get a default judgement when it is obvious someone is doing something bad but not who, and then if you later identify who you can collect immediately - but that person you accuse can fight the default judgement in a lot of ways.

nemomarx•12m ago
How do you get to 100 percent certainty that they won't do that, or that they need to go through the file vault at all? What if someone just needs to find it in an email server or etc?
mindslight•53m ago
It feels like the right thing to do is to preemptively sue all three for a declaratory judgement, similar to obtaining a "quiet title" for a piece of real estate. Then they can put up or shut up. The right thing to do if you're trying to remaster the game, that is. The right thing to do if you just want to play it is to pirate.
compiler-guy•42m ago
How much should the preemptive-plaintiff be willing to spend to get the declaratory judgement? And why would one expect to win? It is very clear that some combination of the three companies have the rights, and all they have to do is agree collectively to win. Each firm individually probably spends more on lawyers every month than normal people do in their lifetime. They have lawyers on staff, so their marginal cost of being hasslesome to you in court is near zero.

It's all risk-adjusted cost/benefit, and there is almost no practical benefit to taking the risk. Yes, it would be nice to clear up the legal ownership rights and to have a non-pirated version available. But as an economic matter, there is almost no value.

mandevil•24m ago
I'm sorry, you want to get into an IP lawsuit with the Walt Disney Company, by choice? You think that starting a fight with the most fearsome collection of IP lawyers on the planet is the right thing to do?

(Fox, one of the possible rights holders, was acquired by Disney in 2019.)

bluGill•1h ago
> Does Activision have to produce this piece of paper once they sue to establish standing?

Yes, but see below.

> If Activision's version of this piece of paper was chewed up by rats in the 90s, does their ownership stake vanish in a puff as well?

No, but complex. Legally the contract is still valid, but they still need to show the court what the details are. All parties to a contracts get a copy, and so Activation can legally force other people who should have a copy of the contract to produce it, any copy is enough (or several partially rat eaten copies may be enough to reproduce what the original said). Activision has all the time they want to find copies of the contract (unlike trademark, copyright isn't use it or lose it), so you are risking the above for a long time. Sometimes enough testimony in court of we did have a contract is enough - when it is obvious there must have been a contract at one time the court will put together obvious details which might be enough to sue. In this case the 3 parties can agree that while they don't know who as rights between the 3 of them the rights must be contained and so they can agree to a 3-way split for purposes of going to court - even if it latter turns out only one party had rights, that party agreed to the split (though if you years latter can prove a 4th party has rights they can sue the other 3).

Of course if rats did eat all copies of the contract the lawyer fees to figure this out are likely more than the game is worth and so it probably isn't worthwhile to sue, so practically it may be as if they no longer have rights to the game just because they can't afford to enforce it. This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.

shalmanese•51m ago
> This is a very risky take though and so nobody should risk it.

People keep on insisting when it comes to these things that various things are risky in a rather handwavey way but they never fully come out and articulate the risks.

I asked this question to ChatGPT a bunch of ways and tried to understand what the specifics are when people say this is risky and I can't really seem to get to anything that is a nuclear level risk, just a garden variety risk that you need to manage amongst all the other garden variety risks involved in running a business (when inputted with a reasonable set of realistic assumptions, it's possible to create assumptions where this is a nuclear level risk but that doesn't seem to apply to the majority of real world cases, including this one).

dbt00•36m ago
You're not going to to get a good answer to this, because 1) 99% of people here aren't lawyers and 2) the ones who are lawyers or know the law have better things to do than argue with the nonsense machine, certainly not via proxy.

Willful copyright infringement means liability for statutory damages, compensatory damages, claims on all profits, and legal fees (yours and theirs).

(I am not a lawyer, I am not your lawyer, chatgpt is a very bad lawyer).

skibz•1h ago
NOLF is actually source-available [0][1][2], and it has been since not that long after its original release.

There's also a community-driven project [3] keeping it playable on modern hardware - however, it hasn't seen any activity in several years.

If you haven't played or heard of NOLF before, I highly encourage checking it out. It's a fantastic title, even after all these years.

0: https://web.archive.org/web/20020217233624/http://pc.ign.com...

1: https://web.archive.org/web/20010720053220/http://noonelives...

2: https://github.com/osgcc/no-one-lives-forever

3: https://github.com/haekb/nolf1-modernizer

dfxm12•1h ago
So you can't buy it, but you can play it, and the source is available. Is this really a problem? I know the article mentions this in passing, but preservation & the ability to actually play a 25 year old game is more important than its capitalization, IMO.
voxic11•52m ago
They do mention that you can pirate it. But that is kind of the point of the article, the only way to play the game is to break the law.
dfxm12•37m ago
Oh, no! Anyway...

Seriously though, break a law that no one is interested in enforcing? What are we doing here, exactly, carrying water for a handful of companies that had nothing to do with the original development of the game in the first place?

ETA: This aside from the fact that you can buy a used copy and play it...

nemomarx•15m ago
I assume the community goal would be to find out who owns the rights and get them to either use them or give them up formally and bless the community project?

Used copies won't be around forever, it would be better to have a proper community version.

sharkjacobs•46m ago
Well, no, you can't play it because the source code doesn't include assets like the 3d models and textures and levels and sound files. You need to acquire those some other way if you want to build a playable version of the game.

It's like GZDoom, you have to supply your own copy of DOOM.WAD

dfxm12•29m ago
I hope you aren't suggesting the only way to play the game is to build it yourself first. This is not the case.
sidewndr46•26m ago
No he's stating that getting the executable is the easy part.
babypuncher•25m ago
That isn't at all what they are saying. They are saying that you need to provide all the game assets. Exactly like you do if you want to play the original Doom with modern source ports. Since the game is not available to buy, this means either pulling those assets from an original retail copy, or pirating them.
dfxm12•20m ago
Since the game is not available to buy, this means either pulling those assets from an original retail copy, or pirating them.

Even if you don't want to pirate it, there are lots of copies for multiple platforms available to buy just on eBay. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

lanthade•1h ago
I loved NOLF and NOLF2. I was actually thinking about pulling them off the shelf and loading them up again the other day. I had no idea that the rights around them was such a mess.
croes•1h ago
Everybody is waiting for HL3. I want NOLF3
hnarayanan•1h ago
This. This was such a charming game series.
keyringlight•1h ago
I'm torn about whether I'd want a direct continuation. It has similarities to the changing tone of the spy shows/movies and their satires that inspired it in that things change over time, and the reception to the feminism angle would be different now. A sequel would likely mean moving the time period on again which has additional challenges.

I could definitely see starting over with a reboot, which would also give the studio involved a chance to dodge all the rights issues by doing a 'spiritual successor' and renaming everything. 25 years later you're likely trying to attract newcomers much more than you are fans of the old games that want specifically more NOLF. I'd also be interested in a cold war era spy thriller that played it straight, real spy history has a lot to pull from that could be weaved into an intriguing story to play through, and NOLF did touch on some of the issues around spying like taking advantage of people.

visarga•1h ago
Copyright kills works when rights cannot be negotiated, usually because the rights holder is not to be found, but in this case because the situation is just "complicated".
bluGill•54m ago
I've long thought copyright should only apply if the work is available for sale, or they are actively preparing another printing so they can sell it again in the near future.
masfuerte•12m ago
At the very least copyright should return to the creator if the publisher isn't publishing. That would fix this situation.
LarsDu88•1h ago
I remember playing the demos for NOLF and NOLF2 years ago. If I had known it would be impossible to buy 25 years later, I would have bought the game!

I also remember reading articles in Game Developer magazine about how sophisticated the AI in NOLF2 was. Wish I could find that article

EvanAnderson•1h ago
A pertinent prior discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43146581
Lammy•1h ago
Fuck “buying it legitimately” anyway when it's old enough that it would be Public Domain under a sane copyright regime.

Relevant: NOLF Revival Edition (same as mentioned in the article and quoted article, but actual link):

- https://archive.org/details/no-one-lives-forever-trilogy

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43146581

xandrius•16m ago
Totally agree, buying makes sense if it helps the creator(s), if it is not possible or it is tainted, I'd say go to the high seas and enjoy.
tavavex•1h ago
No One Sells Forever, eh?

But seriously, the way the copyright system prevents people from preserving and re-experiencing works as soon as the "rightful owner" stops caring about them is a travesty. I say that when an IP becomes orphaned, stops being claimed by a new rights-holder, or some time after it stops being sold/used, it should be forcibly removed from the grip of copyright and open for everyone to use. Otherwise, we're heading to a world where only a slim subset of well-performing properties are being offered, while the rest lie in a gigantic graveyard of things-someone-owns-but-will-never-use instead of being potentially put to use by someone who would actually care.

RcouF1uZ4gsC•57m ago
What is the downside to limiting all movie and software copyrights to 10 years?

Source code and materials etc can remain trade secrets if desired?

And all IP with a movie as well - including characters. This would stop a studio from forever milking the same piece of IP forever.

eastbound•47m ago
No, the opposite. To be protected by copyright, sources must be uploaded to a Library of Software.

Downside: Movies will be made to not last; Software will be made to be incompatible with everything on a 10-year timeframe; and the country who enabled this open mindset will displease its copyright owners who will move to the other countries.

AdmiralAsshat•45m ago
I struggle to understand why the (potential?) rights-holders are so intransigent about this.

If a company came up to me and said "We have interest in reviving an IP of yours. We will take on the development costs, we will take on all the risk, all you have to do is say yes and you will get a fixed percentage of every sale"--that seems like an easy win-win, does it not? The only reasons I would imagine you would say NO were if:

1) Concern that the company will do a crappy job and tarnish the brand's reputation (which, fair, but Nightreign studios and/or GOG seem to have a pretty solid track record on this)

2) Your company's bean-counters are both so greedy and risk-averse such that their thinking is, "We only wish to allow something if it will be a guaranteed hit...but if it is a guaranteed hit, we want to do it internally so that we get to keep all of the profits!" In which case, the requirements are almost impossible to satisfy, since there is inevitably some level of risk undertaken during the remaster/re-release effort.

compiler-guy•35m ago
3. They believe the IP may have potential that you won't exploit to the fullest.

In other words, they believe that they may be able to do more than you with it, if they ever get around to it.

If your potential market is tiny--and lets be honest, the market for an unpirated version of this is quite small,most people sufficiently interested have pirated it already--then keeping it out of the public in favor of some unknown potential later is a consideration.

TheJoeMan•34m ago
I imagine there is a legal/admin cost, to locating the paper contract in Iron Mountain/wherever. So if they wait for the game to go ahead anyways, they could wait and see if its a smashing success, then sue and have a budget for tracking the docs down. Perhaps a lawyer could explain if sending a “cough up the docs in 60 days or we are invalidating your claim” would work.
CobrastanJorji•31m ago
I think it's basically just "this is complicated, complicated means corporate lawyers, corporate lawyers are expensive enough and the potential profit is small enough that it's not worth it." It's not just "will this be net positive," either. There's an opportunity cost. Those corporate lawyers are needed for other important projects that might make more money.

But also, I kind of think it becomes a thing where it's too small potatoes for anybody senior enough to actually approve all of the legal stuff to care enough to make happen. Sure, it's basically free money, but it's not a lot of free money.

mattfrommars•44m ago
off topic: My goodness, anyone feel the UI/UX of the website to be really refreshing? I've lately been digging compact/industrialized looking UI vs 'touch'/comfort view that take up way too much real estate.
ChrisArchitect•29m ago
No One Lives Forever is a game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Operative:_No_One_Lives_Fo...

Usual insanely wordy paragraphs and endless linked text hiding everything on TechDirt.

marginalia_nu•29m ago
This was a fun series of games. They are especially fun if you've watched some of the source material they're constantly referencing and alluding to, like The Man From U.N.C.L.E. (the 1960s one, not the 2010s movie), Get Smart, etc. Still holds up.

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