I think any infrastructure that has lasted over 130 years is already quite durable.
That haven't ever been replaced.
Odds are the replacement is going to be some custom metal machined overseas and will be basically irreplaceable due to cost and skill issues.
Then they will have to replace the metal with some fancy plastic one, because you can’t just admit the wood was better after all, but the plastic will also be unsuitable and degrade quickly which will ultimately end up with going back to wood in another 10 years. But that wood will then only last a fraction of the original wood, because we do not have old growth wood anymore and all the pine plantation wood won’t last a similar 130+ years.
So after about $3 billion dollars in costs and another $5 billion in economic and lifestyle impact after 20 years, they’ll declare it all a wonderful success, even though the wooden catenaries will live on as art or interior decor for another 200 years.
If we’re lucky, the death toll will even be low.
And as bad as the MBTA is... Keolis is worse (arguably).
Long before tunnel boring machines existed we needed to develop methods to dig under rivers. Brunel invented the tunnelling shield for digging under the Thames in 1825 and later a more refined version was used to dig the first deep-level tube line which opened in 1890.
TIL...
“The MBTA will perform work in December to replace the wooden overhead catenary wire “trough” in the Green Line tunnel, which is original to the tunnel’s construction in the late 1890s. The trough houses the Green Line’s overhead wires and will be replaced with a modern, more durable, metal trough.”
Maybe you all knew that factoid already, but I learned the name of shape only recently.
Another interesting factoid about the catenary: Robert Hooke proved that it takes on the shape (though inverted) of the ideal arch, in terms of supporting loads above it. La Sagrada Familia in Barcelona is filled with them.
https://www.nps.gov/jeff/planyourvisit/materials-and-techniq...
Overhead Catenary [1] is a standard term, for a system that has two wires overhead - one suspended from the posts (forming a series of catenary curve), the other suspended from that cable at regular intervals (and held level relative to the track). The wood in Boston's system seems to replace the catenary cable.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhead_line#Overhead_catenar...
This is important to the design of trains, because you have to calculate the variance in height over the caternary length (highest at attachment point; lowest at somewhere near the middle, but depending on incline).
https://sf-fire.org/our-organization/division-support-servic...
vjulian•2mo ago
tapoxi•2mo ago
vjulian•2mo ago
chollida1•2mo ago
Why do you think they charge in the first palce?
venturecruelty•2mo ago
anthonypasq•2mo ago
Why would your solution to be to make the rest of the state pay more for services they cant even use rather than make the people that use it pay the true cost it take to run it?
People that drive cars actually pay most of the cost to upkeep car infrastructure. people that ride the T dont.
venturecruelty•2mo ago
>People that drive cars actually pay most of the cost to upkeep car infrastructure. people that ride the T dont.
This is... so ridiculously untrue. Most car-dependent infrastructure is funded with federal dollars, the vast majority of which are conjured up out of thin air and vibes.
anthonypasq•2mo ago
This is such a heinous non-sequiter i dont even know where to begin. Government services take money to operate. Government services are paid by taxes. In a democracy, you need to make people agree that they want to pay taxes for particular services.
The 60% of massachusetts residents who dont live in teh greater boston metro area do not want to pay for a service they dont use, so it is nearly politically impossible to raise the budget of the MBTA.
So if you are a massachusetts state legistlator you have a couple options. you can allow the MBTA to continue to deteriorate while also going over budget every year (current state) or you could increase the fare to compensate for the actual cost it takes to run the service, or your third option, which is to decrease the amount of money that goes to an already deteriorating public service.
edit: 50-55% of car related infrastructure costs are paid by gas taxes, tolls, excise taxes etc. currently <30% of the mbtas budget is covered by fares.
Arainach•2mo ago
anthonypasq•2mo ago
SoftTalker•2mo ago
Car and truck owners pay fuel tax and registration tax (hundreds or thousands of dollars a year, especially heavy trucks) which all ostensibly goes to road upkeep and related infrastructure. It may not cover all the costs but neither do transit fares.
I don't know anything about Boston's system but most transit agencies would need to have fares in the tens of dollars per ride, at least, to come anywhere close to covering their costs. This is much closer to the costs of using a car, probably not coincidentally. Getting from point A to point B has a value that is independent of the transport mechanism.
pugworthy•2mo ago
It's paid for with state and federal grants, university (OSU) contribution, as well as a utility fee.
bluGill•2mo ago
Transit needs to: Get you from where you are, to where you want to be, when you want to go, in a reasonable amount of time, for a reasonable cost. If you lack any of those things and transit isn't useful. Generally cost is the only part of transit that is reasonable (but not always) and so it isn't something to focus on.
People who ask for free transit are really saying transit is for the poor and "normal people" should just drive.
bombcar•2mo ago
Transit begin able to be paid with a phone has removed most or all the "friction" arguments, the need is to make it reliable (arrive on time) and frequent (so you don't have to meticulously plan your day).
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
That's the sort of thing that would get many people to avoid using it because of the growing (and accurate) sentiment that anything that requires you to use your phone is using it as a tracking device.
potato3732842•2mo ago
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
bluGill•2mo ago
If you want to remove friction set a way such that a family has a maximum monthly charge they will pay. It does mean you need to track people, but if you a careful in how this is done it is worth it since cost for frequent travelers could be an objection and you want this peace of mind that your max cost is known.
bombcar•2mo ago
The only time you should really be worried about limiting rides on transit is if the system is already overburdened (perhaps as the proverbial Japanese trains with shovers).
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
Nearly all of them will have some recurring service fees and paying ~3% to process credit card payments is fairly unavoidable, but those aren't even the biggest costs. You have to install card readers everywhere, which is not just the equipment cost but also the labor to install them, and maintain them, and keep them networked with all the costs of that. If any of it fails it's a service interruption which means you need redundancy and overnight support. People call you with billing problems or commit fraud and have to be investigated.
What's the point of any of that when the fares are generating less than 1% of the state budget, have privacy issues and deter people from doing something you want to encourage?
pugworthy•2mo ago
anthonypasq•2mo ago
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
Suppose you have to choose between a suburban house without any convenient access to mass transit (i.e. you're going to have to drive everywhere) or a more expensive unit which is closer to the city and is near a transit stop. Paying $40 for parking is going to offset the cost advantage of the less expensive housing and leave a lot of people near the breakeven point, and then a $100/mo difference in transit fares could be the deciding factor.
anthonypasq•2mo ago
rich people (of which boston has plenty even in the burbs where average house prices are 800k+) pay to avoid existing near poor people. they think they are going to get stabbed on the subway.
if the subway was faster, safer, cleaner, but more expensive, more people would use it.
potato3732842•2mo ago
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
Which is a huge pain, because now you need to have a car, and already be in it to drive to the park and ride. A drive on which there could be traffic. Which means you could miss your train unless you leave early, but then you're standing around the train station doing nothing (and not getting paid) even when there isn't traffic, instead of spending that time either at home or at work. Whereas if you lived near the train stop you wouldn't have to leave early to not miss your train.
Meanwhile if you already need to have a car, and you're already in it and driving it, most people aren't going to drive northeast to the park and ride and then take a train southeast to their destination instead of saving time by just driving directly east all the way to the destination. So the thing that gets them on the train is not having to drive to get to it.
> theres commuter rail access in basically a 1 hour drive radius of the city.
There's commuter rail lines that go an hour from the center of the city. That's not at all the same thing as there being a stop within walking distance of every suburban home.
> they think they are going to get stabbed on the subway.
The people who think they're going to get stabbed on the subway are not going to use the subway. We're talking about the people who might actually use it.
> if the subway was faster, safer, cleaner, but more expensive, more people would use it.
The way you make it faster is to get more people to use it so you can justify more frequent service, which eliminating fares facilitates. The way to make it safer and cleaner is to get more people to use it, so there are more people who care if it's safer and cleaner because they're using it. Which is again facilitated by eliminating fares.
The only thing fares get you is an amount of money that represents less than 1% of the state budget, and then you lose a significant proportion of that to the cost of collecting the fares. It's taking a privacy-invasive deadweight loss to create a deterrent to something you're trying to encourage people to do.
AnthonyMouse•2mo ago
It's not just about that. Higher transportation costs are heavily regressive. People with less money can't afford to live in the city and have to commute and then anything they pay to commute is independent of their wages, so $100 in fares is $100 whether you make $200k/year or $20k, whereas even the taxes like sales tax labeled as "regressive" would have the former person paying ten times more than the latter.
Moreover, fares are often heavily subsidized to begin with -- in large part because of the above -- but then not zeroing them out requires you to still pay the full cost of the collections infrastructure. Which is actually really expensive, because then you need turnstiles, payment processing equipment, security to prevent theft or card skimming, billing departments to deal with credit card fraud or chargebacks, customer service when people have problems, enforcement against people who skip the fare, etc. None of those costs go away if the fare is even $0.01, but they all disappear when it's actually zero.
And people who have never used it before then wouldn't have to figure out how to set it up, which is a significant source of friction independent of the fare and can cause people to just get an Uber (which they've already set up) or rent a car etc. Which causes people to never even try using mass transit, and then regard it as that thing they never use so why is the government spending money on it, instead of that thing that was convenient to use when their car was in the shop and made them realize that they can get by as a one-car household instead of two, or at least something worth supporting because they remember actually using it.
On top of that, removing the fares is better for privacy because then you're not tying your movement history to your payment card.
anthonypasq•2mo ago
I loved living right on the red line, but its just not worth it unless we figure out how to make it not cost a fortune.
fragmede•2mo ago
mindslight•2mo ago
paleotrope•2mo ago
vjulian•2mo ago