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Programming peaked

https://functional.computer/blog/programming-peaked
63•Antibabelic•3h ago

Comments

skrebbel•58m ago
This article in different forms keeps making the rounds and it's just so tiring. Yeah, let's remember everything that was great about 25 years ago and forget everything that sucked. Juxtapose it with everything that sucks about today but omit everything that's great. Come on man.

If you think things suck now, just make it better! The world is your playground. Nobody makes you use YAML and Docker and VS Code or whatever your beef is. Eclipse is still around! There's still a data center around your corner! Walk over and hang a server in the rack, put your hardly-typechecked Java 1.4 code on there and off you go!

dkdcio•57m ago
old man claims society collapsing; back in his day…
sybercecurity•38m ago
Old man yells at cloud native...
titzer•24m ago
You'll get old too one day and it will look a whole lot different watching the younguns stumble through completely avoidable mistakes and forget the long lessons of your life that weren't properly taught or were just ignored.

We have records from many periods in history of old men crowing about how society is collapsing because of the weak new generations. Thing is, maybe they were always right, and the new generations just had to grow up and take responsibility? And then again, maybe sometimes they were little too right and society did in fact collapse, but locally.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

― G. Michael Hopf, Those Who Remain

fainpul•46m ago
Sure, you can do that for your hobby projects. But "at work" you generally have these decisions made for you. And these decisions have changed over time for the wrong reasons.

As an aside: if we say k8s, we should also say j8t.

skrebbel•36m ago
> But "at work" you generally have these decisions made for you.

The idea that most employers make terrible decisions now, and amazing decisions back in the day, is plainly false. The author vividly recollects working at a decent Java shop. Even there I strongly doubt everything was amazing as they describe, but it sounds decent indeed. But plenty businesses at the time used C++, for no good reason other than inertia, usually in Windows-only Visual C++ 6-specific dialects. Their "build server" ran overnight, you'd check in your code in the late afternoon and get your compile errors back in the morning. The "source control" worked with company-wide file locks, and you'd get phoned your ass back to the office if you forgot to check in a file before leaving. Meanwhile, half the web was written in epic spaghetti plates of Perl. PHP was a joy to deploy, as it is now, but it was also a pain to debug.

If you care deeply about this stuff, find an employer who cares too. They existed back then and they exist now.

vdupras•31m ago
The "terrible decisions" of yore hold no comparison to today's "terrible decisions". It's not the same ballpark, it's not the same sport.
mexicocitinluez•8m ago
Amen.

We love the idea that we don't have any agency in this field and we're constantly being pushed by the mean baddies at the top.

ongy•34m ago
jubernetes?
skrebbel•33m ago
jubernetet
Otek•34m ago
> And these decisions have changed over time for the wrong reasons.

Have you ever considered that you don’t understand why those decisions were made and that’s why you think they were made for the wrong reasons?

fainpul•26m ago
I simply don't agree with the reasons, while you seem to imply that all decisions made, are good.
jagged-chisel•24m ago
> if we say k8s, we should also say j8t

It’s that one extra spoken syllable that pushes it into k8s I guess. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

fainpul•11m ago
But it's only used in written form. You don't actually say out loud "kay eight es", do you?
arccy•5m ago
kate's
vdupras•38m ago
The better tools are already there. It's not about making it better. It's about most programmers today choosing mediocrity.

Sometimes, you can avoid contact with this mediocrity, but often you don't and you're forced to play in this swamp.

ToucanLoucan•36m ago
I both agree and disagree with you.

On the one hand: yes, this dev has clearly chosen a career/language specialization that puts him knee-deep in the absolute worst tooling imaginable.. I cannot fathom a workflow this fucking miserable and if this was my day to day, I would be far, far more depressed than I already am.

AND, the fact that so very very much of our industry does run, perhaps not all of, but a significant amount of a workflow not awfully different from this is IMO, an indictment of our trade. To invoke the immortal sentiment of the hockey coach from Letterkenny, this shit is FUCKING embarrassing.

So much major software that ships in a web browser because writing for Windows, Mac and Linux is just too hard you guys, it's simply too much for a sweet little bean like Microsoft ($3.62 trillion) to manage as they burn billions on AI garbage, is FUCKING embarrassing.

Half the apps on my phone are written this way which is why they can barely manage 30hz on their animations, die entirely when S3 goes down, and when they are working, make my phone hot. To run an app that lets me control my thermostat from my desk. That's FUCKING embarrassing.

And my desktop is only saved by virtue of being magnitudes more powerful than my original one back in the 90's, yet it only seems a scant more capable. In the early 00's I was sitting on Empire Earth and chatting with people over TeamSpeak. My computer can still do this, and with the added benefit of Discord can stream my game so my friends can all watch each other, and that's cool, apart from I lose about 10 fps just by virtue of having Discord open, and when I'm traveling? Oh god forget it, Discord flounders to death on hotel wifi despite it being perfectly cromulent DSL speeds. Not BLAZING, surely, but TeamSpeak handled VOIP over an actual DSL connection, with DSL latency, in the 00's. That's FUCKING embarrassing.

All our software now updates automatically by default, and it's notable when that's a GOOD thing. Usually what it actually means is the layout of known features changes for seemingly arbitrary reasons. Other times more dark patterns are injected. And Discord, not to pick on them, but they're the absolute fucking worst for this. I swear they push an "update" every time one of their devs sneezes, I usually have to install 18 such updates on each launch, and I run it very regularly! And for all that churn, I couldn't tell you one goddamn thing they actually added recently. FUCKING embarrassing.

And people will say "oh they could be better," "we know we can do it better," "these aren't the best companies or apps" okay but they are BIG ones. If the mean average car in America got awful fuel economy, needed constant service, was ill-designed for it's purpose and cost insane amounts of money...

Oh, that happened too. I think I just made my metaphor more embarrassing for another industry.

ben_w•18m ago
> The world is your playground. Nobody makes you use YAML and Docker and VS Code or whatever your beef is

Nobody, except your future employment prospects.

There's good reasons and bad reasons for a lot of technical options; "can I hire people to do it?" is a very good reason, but it does directly lead to CV-driven-development, where we all chase whatever tech stack the people writing the job adverts have decided is good.

The same people who capitalise "MAC" in "MAC & PC", the same people who conflate Java with JavaScript, the same people who want 10 years experience in things only released 3 years ago.

fullstackchris•13m ago
Agreed. If folks want to write java in elipse they are more than welcome to do so... dont understand these yelling at clouds posts really
canto•44m ago
MY GOD THIS IS GOLD. Nothing but the truth here.
spiderfarmer•40m ago
Programming was so much better 15 years ago, except for all the parts that sucked.
analogears•37m ago
There's something to this. I recently shipped a music curation site and deliberately avoided React/Next/etc - just HTML, CSS, vanilla JS. The cognitive load difference is stark. The 'peak' might be less about capability and more about us rediscovering that simpler tools often suffice.
ToucanLoucan•34m ago
Same. I build stuff for local businesses in my area with nothing but boring old HTML, PHP, CSS and JS. I guess my shit isn't "web scale" but it works, and it works consistently, with minimal downtime, and it worked during both Amazon and Cloudflare's latest outages.

I don't need my software to eat the world, I'm perfectly content with it just solving someone's problems.

mcntsh•21m ago
It's all about picking the right tools for the job. The "cognitive load" might be larger in a vanilla project compared to React when your interface is more complex and interactive.
gary_0•32m ago
> Funnily enough, everything ran at about the same speed as it does now.

Actually, where I was sitting on a decent PC with broadband Internet at the time, everything was much, much faster. I remember seeing a video on here where someone actually booted up a computer from the 2000's and showed how snappy everything was, including Visual Studio, but when I search YouTube for it, it ignores most of my keywords and returns a bunch of "how to speed up your computer" spam. And I can't find it in my bookmarks. Oh well.

codelikeawolf•21m ago
> I remember seeing a video on here where someone actually booted up a computer from the 2000's and showed how snappy everything was...

Was this what you were referring to?: https://jmmv.dev/2023/06/fast-machines-slow-machines.html

titzer•21m ago
YouTube has become enshittified at a record clip. Search is useless and shorts have turned it into just another TikTok brain dopamine machine.
zelphirkalt•11m ago
These days to get a snappy experience, one has to aggressively block everything and only selectively unblock the bare minimum, so that one doesn't get tons of bloat thrown in the direction of one's browser. Oh and forget about running JavaScript, because it _will_ be abused by websites. And then sites have the audacity to claim one is a bot.

Many websites are so shitty, they don't even manage to display static text, without one downloading tons of their JS BS.

mattlondon•32m ago
This feels very much like the tired "the modern internet sucks - the old web with old websites was better!" trope that appears on here regularly.

You can still code the old way just like you can still put up your old website. No one is forcing you to use AI or VS Code or even JavaScript.

Of course you.might not getting those choices at work, but that is entirely different since your paid to do a job that benefits your employer, not paid to do something you enjoy.

Have fun.

maxsilver•26m ago
I get it. I agree with most of this article. But also like, nothing went away.

If you pine for the days of Java and Maven, you can still do that. It’s all still there (Eclipse and NetBeans, too!)

If you don’t like using Node and NPM, that’s totally valid, don’t use them. You can spin up a new mobile app, desktop app, and even a SaaS-style web app without touching NPM. (Even on fancy modern latest-version web frameworks like Hanami or Phoenix)

If you don’t want everyone to use JS and NPM and React without thinking, be the pushback on a project at work, to not start there.

mcntsh•24m ago
If the author doesn't want to work with NPM and the JavaScript ecosystem he could just get a job writing Spring/Boot, which makes up probably 90% of the jobs at large enterprise companies. I don't agree that this world has disappeared...
noident•22m ago
The author is writing like Java was outlawed or something. There are tons of shitty enterprise Java jobs out there for those who want them. Personally, I worked one of those jobs a decade ago, and the article's description of the "golden age" didn't bring back good memories.

It's easy enough to avoid the NPM circus as well. Just don't put JavaScript on your resume and don't get anywhere near frontend development.

BenGosub•20m ago
Javascript wins by keeping the costs down. Companies today want to do more with less, which is how it should be and you are still free to choose from a myriad of technologies. When you pair this setup with LLMs, it's actually the best it has ever been IMO.
orwin•19m ago
Java is usable now, but in 2013 it was the worst debugging experience one could have. I would rather work with PHP5 than with Java (unless I started a project from scratch). Also auto-refactoring was clearly worse, because well, Java. It was around that time that I tried Scala then Clojure, and even if debugging the JVM was still an experience (to avoid as much as possible), at least limited side effects reduced the issues.

If programming peaked, it certainly wasn't in 2010.

Glemkloksdjf•19m ago
Honestly, the person should spend their time of fixing their shit instead of writing blog posts.

I find intellij a great IDE, modern frameworks are fun to use, ai helps me doing things i don't want to do or things i just need (like generate a good README.md for the other people).

Containers are great and mine build fast.

My Startup has a ha setup with self healing tx to k8s and everything is in code so i don't need to worry to backup some random config files.

Hardware has never been that cheap. NVMs, RAM and Compute. A modern laptop today has a brilliant display, quite, can run everything, long batterytime.

Traffic? No brainer.

Websphere was a monster with shitty features. I remember when finally all the JEE Servers had a startup time of just a few seconds instead of minutes. RAM got finally cheap enough that you were able to run eclipse, webserver etc. locally.

Java was verbose, a lot more verbose than today.

JQuery was everywere.

webdevver•6m ago
truthnuke
Kuyawa•16m ago
I am still a happy programmer after all these years using only node, express, postgres and sublime. I try not to listen to the sirens singing on the rocky shores...
coolThingsFirst•8m ago
In other words you have competitive advantage because your cloud costs will be 10x less.

This is exactly what 10 years of experience did for you. Why complain?

wiz21c•6m ago
I've been coding since 40 years old and professioannly since about 30. And let's set this straight: it is much (much, like really much) better nowadays.

We have super powerful editors, powerful languages, a gazillion of libraries ready for download.

I use to write video games and it took months (yeah, months of hobby-time) to put a sprite on a screen.

And for Java, yeah, things have improved so much too: the language of today is better, the tooling is better, the whole security is more complex but better, the JVM keeps rocking...

And now we've got Claude.

I'm really happy to be now.

mexicocitinluez•6m ago
> The most popular is “VS Code”, which needs only a few gigabytes of RAM to render the text.

> We used Eclipse, which was a bit like VS Code.

This made me laugh. You can't possibly be a serious person if you think Eclipse was better in any way shape or form than VS Code.

I don't have a great memory, but one thing I can absolutely still remember with 100% clarity is how bloated and memory hungry Eclipse was. It was almost unusable.

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