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Want to sway an election? Here’s how much fake online accounts cost

https://www.science.org/content/article/want-sway-election-here-s-how-much-fake-online-accounts-cost
95•rbanffy•2h ago

Comments

haunter•2h ago
Next one to look out for: 2026 Hungary. Fidesz is basically a russian backdoor in the EU and they will do everything to stay in power.

https://telex.hu/english/2025/12/11/most-hungarians-fear-rus...

They are also doing everything to bypass the no-political-ads-on-facebook ban https://telex.hu/english/2025/10/29/despite-the-ban-fidesz-c...

spiderfarmer•1h ago
Man. I logged in to Twitter the other day and it’s now 100% unfiltered racist fear mongering and nazi propaganda. Truly frightening. And I can’t believe people still consider it a useful platform.
an0malous•1h ago
Network effects are powerful, it’s still the “town square” of the world
flipgimble•50m ago
It’s more accurately the “truck stop bathroom wall” of the world under new management.
reactordev•48m ago
Dubious claim now
nathanaldensr•1h ago
No, it's not 100% anything. The content you're looking at is what you see.
amitav1•43m ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted for this, but it's the same thing for me. The For You tab is a cesspool, but if you stick to the Following tab and unfollow anybody who says pretty much anything political, it's actually a pretty nice platform.
earthnail•15m ago
Reads a bit like “nah if you ignore the main streets and just walk on the paths that you like you’re safe from crime in your neighbourhood.”

I find it crazy that we accept this madness on social media.

mettamage•1h ago
I've met Hungarian people in the Netherlands and they're doing everything they can to become Dutch. One Hungarian even speaks fluent with no accent, and that is quite a feat.

I think it's quite unfortunate as it will mean that Hungary will become less pro EU, simply because the really pro EU people (that are also highly educated) seem to be going out of the country according to my anecdata. It's n = 2 to be fair, but I think it's enough for it to warrant some more research since I am simply stumbling across this group of people, I'm not actively seeking it out.

roenxi•1m ago
[delayed]
jsnell•2h ago
The _Science_ paper linked is paywalled, is anyone aware of a preprint?

I find it a bit curious that they've chosen to use SMS verifications as a proxy for the difficulty of creating an account, when there are similar marketplaces for selling the actual end product of bulk-created accounts. Was there some issue with that kind of data? SMS verification is just one part of the anti-bulk account puzzle, for both the attacker and defender.

lysace•2h ago
I have witnessed obvious and systematic synthetic upvotes of HN posts. Over and over. I don't think the site has enough protections in place.

Maybe have YC invest in some startups combatting this using machine learning?

(Given the focus of HN it's typically some product being pushed, though. Not a politician.)

Nasrudith•1h ago
It is machine learning, not machine telepathy or machine precognition. Without causality you just automate superstition.
lysace•38m ago
You are saying its not feasible to create an antispam filter using machine learning? I mean wtf. Is this a joke?
alecco•1h ago
Hacked voting machines are a problem... unless our guys do it.

Fake online accounts are a problem... unless our guys do it.

Totalitarian measures like persecuting people for social media posts and forcing digital id are a problem... unless our guys are in power.

It was a good run for democracy. What was it, 200 years? I wonder comes is next. Techno-feudalism? Well, I'm sure it won't be a problem as long as it's our guys.

the_gastropod•1h ago
How is this little "both sides bad" rant related to the article at all?
alecco•1h ago
First off, let me be clear I believe Russian intelligence does a lot of election interference in both EU and US and has a lot of social media presence. And also, I personally think Putin is an evil person worth of being a Bond villain.

That out of the way, if the post were about ballot stuffing by the Democrats with irrefutable evidence like I've seen, would you feel exactly the same way? Rhetorical question. I hope you can come out of the mind-spell and recognize evil for being evil whoever does it. Not just thinking evil can only be done by "the other people".

Note: I'm not even American and dislike both political parties. Same in EU, I deeply dislike the EU self-appointed caste, but I also deeply dislike the new right parties. And don't get me started with UK... So I think I'm reasonably un-biased with regards to those false dichotomies.

the_gastropod•1h ago
> if the post were about ballot stuffing by the Democrats with irrefutable evidence like I've seen

That's incredible. You're not even American, and have seen irrefutable evidence of "the Democrats" participating in blatant electoral fraud? Why haven't you shared this? There's no shortage of literal billionaires who'd reward you handsomely for such proof!

Beyond this, why I constantly make fun of "both-sides!" guys is because they tend to ignore degree. To a vegetarian, eating hamburgers is wrong (some might even call it evil). But you'd be hard-pressed to find one who'd consider hambuger-eaters and murderers basically the same. You'd rightfully consider someone with such beliefs insane. Between murderers and hamburger eaters, one is considerably worse than the other.

makeitdouble•1h ago
> What was it, 200 years?

Rant aside, I'm curious where you pin the start of this.

CamperBob2•1h ago
It was known to the Attic Greeks that democracy had a fatal bug: a system that entrusts ultimate authority to the masses will predictably privilege persuasion over knowledge, passion over judgment, and populism over excellence.

It just couldn't be exploited effectively until now. Thanks, Mark and Elon.

tbrownaw•1h ago
No, mass media had been around much longer than just a couple years.

But also, that bug is why our government was initially set up with the structure it was. And why you'll occasionally see complaints about parts of the structure being "undemocratic".

techdmn•54m ago
It was set up the way it was because the founders didn't trust voters. Voters don't always make optimal choices. Nobody said democracy was perfect. It's just a lot better than every other system we've ever tried. Benevolent dictatorship is good in theory, but quite rare in practice.
CamperBob2•6m ago
Mass media wasn't enough to wreck the whole concept of democracy.

It was almost enough, admittedly... but not quite. The coup de grace was administered by social media.

alecco•1h ago
> It just couldn't be exploited effectively until now.

Are you saying until Elon Musk bought Twitter in 2022 there were no effective election interference problems?

the_gastropod•43m ago
Politics isn't Newton's Third Law of Motion. Prior to Musk's takeover, there absolutely and unequivocally was no "equal but opposite" deliberately biased system in place like there is now.

This is a classic playbook in U.S. politics. Conservative media gins up a conspiracy theory (e.g., Hollywood is biased, universities are biased, mainstream media is biased, social media is biased, etc. etc.) and then they use these imaginary foes as justification for actual retribution. There was no purposeful and systematic bias at Twitter under Jack Dorsey (himself, a pretty conservative character, having backed Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr in the past election, both of whom both now work in the Trump administration).

alecco•1h ago

  * Athenian Democracy (c. 508–322 BCE)
  * Roman Republic (c. 509–27 BCE)
  * Dutch Republic (c. 1500?)
  * French and American Revolutions and constitutional monarchies (c. 1770-ish-present?)
perching_aix•1h ago
I don't know man, I think people disappove of voting fraud and sockpuppeting rather unilaterally.

> forcing digital id are a problem... unless our guys are in power.

Digital government ID based mandatory auth, properly implemented or not (read: anon via zk vs. tracking), does not "properly remediate" [0] this issue. You'd limit identity forgery to those who administrate identities in the first place.

[0] if that is even possible, which I find questionable

mettamage•1h ago
I'm from the Netherlands. That is slightly relevant given that we have 20+ parties here, so I'm coming in with that mindset. I understand that Americans have a 2 party political system which makes things a lot more entrenched.

The political parties I've voted for (all across the board) have never felt to me like "our guys". They simply felt like the most sane option at the time.

Not everyone sinks into political tribalism.

I simply want a sane democratic voting process.

And I find first past the post voting to be insane. It seems that a country is then doomed into having a 2 party system.

From a CS course called distributed systems, we know that if you only have a single source of failure, that's a vulnerability right there. A 2 party system can be a single source of failure if one of the two political parties is corrupted and gains too much power. To be fair, that could also happen when there are 20+ parties, but it is less likely.

alecco•1h ago
Yeah. It's complicated. See Veritasium's "Why Democracy is Mathematically Impossible" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qf7ws2DF-zk

And also Idiocracy. This one is becoming more relevant. In all countries and all races.

pjc50•1h ago
Plenty of people were pointing out that voting machines had poor security for about two decades. Even before that, there was the mechanically disastrous Bush vs Gore Florida ballot.

America being what it is, with endless Voting Rights Act lawsuits required to keep the southern states running vaguely fair elections, it was impossible to get a bipartisan consensus that elections should actually be fair. And so the system deteriorates.

thfuran•1h ago
>Hacked voting machines are a problem... unless our guys do it.

If they hack voting machines, they're not my guys, friend.

slaw•18m ago
Romania presidential election were cancelled because wrong guy (pro-Russian, anti-NATO) could win.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%83lin_Georgescu

p2detar•9m ago
[delayed]
ivape•1h ago
I am utterly terrified of elections finally. I didn't expect that to be in my timeline. The masses are really crazy.
Nasrudith•1h ago
The conclusion that an account being cheap is the problem as a reason for regulation is a disturbingly wrong-headed on multiple levels. It essentially says. "If only superpowers can use it would be a-okay!". A monopoly on manipulation is a bad thing for the same reasons allowing only incumbents to run political ads would be.
Barrin92•33m ago
running political ads is in and of itself value neutral, tools for manipulation aren't. Just having them in the hands of fewer people is a straight up win in the same way having bioweapons in the hand of fewer people is. "I wish everyone had Sarin gas to level the playing field" isn't really a great idea.

I think a minimum pricing on accounts, even if it's just a buck or two on most social media sites would do very little to hinder genuine participation but probably eliminate or render transparent most political manipulation.

Arguably the primary reason nobody does it is because it would reveal how fake their stats are and how little value there actually is in it

sejje•1h ago
Do we have solid evidence that these accounts actually change votes?
fsflover•59m ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46223522
dehrmann•54m ago
When Citizens United was a big deal, I was torn over the premise of the concern for election integrity. Ideally, voters would make rational, informed decisions. They'd see ads, but know they all have an agenda, so they'd do their own research and come to a conclusion. Worrying about biased or inaccurate noise influencing elections means you think people can't be trusted to vote. Which might be true, and if it is, it's a bigger problem than corporate speech and fake accounts.
jawon•48m ago
This is “why are we going to space when we haven’t cured cancer” reasoning.
mikem170•30m ago
Other western democracies go further than the U.S. with campaign restrictions, including restrictions to campaign financing. One might say they protect the functioning of their democracies more with these additional restrictions, protecting voters.

And one might ask why we don't want to protect ours more.

dehrmann•18m ago
I'll swing wildly in the other direction with campaign financing and point out Bloomberg's run for president. He outspent everybody and won American Samoa. He wasn't unqualified, either. He was mayor of NYC.
romaaeterna•29m ago
The people most susceptible to consensus mirage are, by the very nature of the beast, the ones least aware of it happening to themselves. Any opinion that you find yourself praised for by any of the groups in your social circle is infinitely suspect.
charcircuit•19m ago
Just the price of the account doesn't mean much alone. The other important factor is how easily the account can get (shadow)banned from the region you are trying to influence. And for the price given we just know it's account. We don't know how sketchy it appears to the provider.

Not all accounts are created equal. For example a verified US account will be cheaper than a verified Japan account because Japan has stricter regulations around phone numbers. And then if you don't have a Japan account you might not be able to reach a potential Japanese audience due to not only antitrust of the platform, but also features that use geolocation for relevance.

energy123•13m ago
Cheap accounts from other regions are equally useful for mass upvoting preferred viewpoints.
charcircuit•2m ago
Take a look at the YouTube algorithm. If those other accounts aren't in the same cohorts as your target audience you aren't going to accomplish much.
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https://www.science.org/content/article/want-sway-election-here-s-how-much-fake-online-accounts-cost
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