*This is false, NaN is weird, though maybe it needs to be. It is nowhere written arithmetic on computers must be straightforward.
Although Almost All† Real Numbers are Normal, none of the floats are normal, and nor are most numbers any regular person would think of (possible exceptions Pi and Euler's Number which are conjectured to be Normal although it is unproven)
† Almost All is a term of art in mathematics, remember there are uncountably many real numbers, so the fact the Normals are also uncountable puts them at least in the right ballpark, unlike the rationals.
The real surprise to me is that Python can index NaN keys sometimes, at least by reference to the original NaN. I knew CPython does some Weird Shit with primitive values, so I assume it's because the hashmap is comparing by reference first and then by value.
[1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18291620/why-will-stdsor...
>>> hash(float('nan'))
271103401
>>> hash(float('nan'))
271103657Yes and no:
`If an operation has a single NaN input and propagates it to the output, the result NaN's payload should be that of the input NaN (this is not always possible for binary formats when the signaling/quiet state is encoded). If there are multiple NaN inputs, the result NaN's payload should be from one of the input NaNs; the standard does not specify which.'
The IEEE 754 Specification requires that >,<,= evaluate to False.
Saying that two incomparable objects become comparable let alone gain equally would break things.
We use specific exponents and significands to represent NaNs but they have no numerical meaning.
I am actually surprised python got this correct, often NaN behavior is incorrect out of convenience and causes lots of issues and side effects.
nan isn't anything. It's an early attempt at None when no/few (common) languages had that concept.
That python allows nan as an index is just so many kinds of buggy.
I'll add that, if I recall correctly, in R, the statement NaN == NaN evaluates to NA which basicall means "it is not known whether these numbers equal each other" which is a more reasonable result than False.
If you do a (signed) integer operation, the hardware does not fit the result in a register of the size expected in a HLL, but the result has some bits elsewhere, typically in a "flags" register.
So the result of an integer arithmetic operation has an extra bit, usually named as the "overflow" bit. That bit is used to encode a not-a-number value, i.e. if the overflow bit is set, the result of the operation is an integer NaN.
For correct results, one should check whether the result is a NaN, which is called checking for integer overflow (unlike for FP, the integer execution units do not distinguish between true overflow and undefined operations, i.e. there are no distinct encodings for infinity and for NaN). After checking that the result is not a NaN, the extra bit can be stripped from the result.
If you serialize an integer number for sending it elsewhere, that implicitly assumes that wherever your number was produced, someone has tested for overflow, i.e. that the value is not a NaN, so the extra bit was correctly stripped from the value. If nobody has tested, your serialized value can be bogus, the same as when serializing a FP NaN and not checking later that it is a NaN, before using one of the 6 relational operators intended for total orders, which may be wrong for partial orders.
Equality, among other operations, are not defined for these inputs. NaN's really are a separate type of object embedded inside another objects value space. So you get the rare programmers gift of being able to construct a statement that is not always realizable based solely on the values of your inputs.
When you define an order relation on a set, the order may be either a total order or a partial order.
In a totally ordered set, there are 3 values for a comparison operation: equal, less and greater. In a partially ordered set, there are 4 values for a comparison operation: equal, less, greater and unordered.
For a totally ordered set you can define 6 relational operators (6 = 2^3 - 2, where you subtract 2 for the always false and always true predicates), while for a partially ordered set you can define 14 relational operators (14 = 2^4 - 2).
For some weird reason, many programmers have not been taught properly about partially-ordered sets and also most programming languages do not define the 14 relational operators needed for partially ordered sets, but only the 6 relational operators that are sufficient for a totally ordered set.
It is easy to write all 14 relational operators by combinations of the symbols for not, less, greater and equal, so parsing this in a programming language would be easy.
This lack of awareness about partial order relations and the lack of support in most programming languages is very bad, because practical applications need very frequently partial orders instead of total orders.
For the floating-point numbers, the IEEE standard specifies 2 choices. You can either use them as a totally-ordered set, or as a partially-ordered set.
When you encounter NaNs as a programmer, that is because you have made the choice to have partially-ordered FP numbers, so you are not allowed to complain that this is an odd behavior, when you have chosen it. Most programmers do not make this choice consciously, because they just use the default configuration of the standard library, but it is still their fault if the default does not do what they like, but nonetheless they have not changed the default settings.
If you do not want NaNs, you must not mask the invalid operation exception. This is actually what the IEEE standard recommends as the default behavior, but lazy programmers do not want to handle exceptions, so most libraries choose to mask all exceptions in their default configurations.
When invalid operations generate exceptions, there are no NaNs and the FP numbers are totally ordered, so the 6 relational operators behave as naive programmers expect them to behave.
If you do not want to handle the invalid operation exception and you mask it, there is no other option for the CPU than to use a special value that reports an invalid operation, and which is indeed not-a-number. With not-numbers added to the set of FP numbers, the set becomes a partially-ordered set and all relational operators must be interpreted accordingly.
If you use something like C/C++, with only 6 relational operators, then you must do before any comparison tests to detect any NaN operand, because otherwise the relational operators do not do what you expect them to do.
In a language with 14 relational operators, you do not need to check for NaNs, but you must choose carefully the relational operator, because for a partially-ordered set, for example not-less is not the same with greater-or-equal (because not-less is the same with greater-or-equal-or-unordered).
If you do not expect to do invalid operations frequently, it may be simpler to unmask the exception, so that you will never have to do any test for NaN detection.
The same not-number, produced by the same computation, occupying the same memory, is still not equal to itself. It is true that I haven't been able to brush up my knowledge on partial ordering, but isn't being identical is the same as being equal in math?
IEEE-754 does remainder(5, 3) = -1, whereas Python does 5 % 3 = 2.
There's no reason to expect exact equivalence between operators.
There are so many discussions about "X language is so weird about it handles numbers!" and it's just IEEE 754 floats.
See: https://docs.python.org/3/library/stdtypes.html#hashing-of-n...
>>> my_dict[nan] = 3
>>> my_dict[nan]
3
>>> class Evil:
... def __init__(self, hash_value): self.hash_value = hash_value
... def __eq__(self, other): return False
... def __hash__(self): return self.hash_value
...
>>> e1, e2 = Evil(1), Evil(2)
>>> {e1:1, e2:2}
{<__main__.Evil object at ...>: 1, <__main__.Evil object at ...>: 2}
>>> {e1:1, e2:2}[Evil(1)]
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module>
KeyError: <__main__.Evil object at ...>
>>> {e1:1, e2:2}[e1]
1
(But it does have to find the instance via the hash lookup first. This won't work if you e.g. return a random number from `__hash__`.)
Oh, I missed it. But yes, this is more to do with NaN than Python.
> But, of course, you can't actually get to those values by their keys: ... That is, unless you stored the specific instance of nan as a variable:
Worth noting that sets work the same way here, although this was glossed over: you can store multiple NaNs in a set, but not the same NaN instance multiple times. Even though it isn't equal to itself, the insertion process (for both dicts and sets) will consider object identity before object equality:
>>> x = float('nan')
>>> {x for _ in range(10)}
{nan}
In my experience, INF and NaN are almost always an indicator of programming error.
If someone want's to programmatically represent those concepts, they could do it on top of and to the side of the floating point specification, not inside it.
I can also compare infinity to Java's BigDecimal values but I fail to see what I'd want to or need to.
> {} + {}
NaN
PS: Wait for it ... Watman! =8-)
The correct solution for any programming language is to define all the 14 relational operators that are required by any partially-ordered set, instead of defining only the 6 of them that are sufficient for a totally-ordered set.
If the programming language fails to define all 14 operators, then you must always test the operands for NaNs, before using any of the 6 ALGOL relational operators. If you consider this tedious, then you must unmask the invalid operation exception and take care to handle this exception.
If invalid operations generate exceptions, then the floating-point numbers become a totally-ordered set and NaN cannot exist (if a NaN comes from an external source, it will also generate an exception, while internally no NaN will ever be generated).
elm repl
---- Elm 0.19.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------
Say :help for help and :exit to exit! More at <https://elm-lang.org/0.19.1/repl>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> import Dict exposing (Dict)
> nan = 0/0
NaN : Float
> nan
NaN : Float
> nan == nan
False : Bool
> naan = 0/0
NaN : Float
> d = Dict.fromList [(nan, "a"), (naan, "b")]
Dict.fromList [(NaN,"a"),(NaN,"b")]
: Dict Float String
> Dict.toList d
[(NaN,"a"),(NaN,"b")]
: List ( Float, String )
> Dict.keys d
[NaN,NaN] : List Float
> Dict.get nan d
Nothing : Maybe String
> Dict.get naan d
Nothing : Maybe String
paulddraper•1h ago
It makes little sense that 1/0 is SIGFPE, but log(-5) is NaN in C.
And the same is true for higher level languages, and their error facilities.
What a mess.
Aardwolf•1h ago
pletnes•1h ago
dgrunwald•1h ago
It would be weird if the behavior of `1 / x` was different depending on whether `0` or `0.0` was passed to a `x: float` parameter -- if `int` is a subtype of `float`, then any operation allowed on `float` (e.g. division) should have the same behavior on both types.
This means Python had to choose at least one:
1. division violates the liskov substitution principle
2. division by zero involving only integer inputs returns NaN
3. division by zero involving only float inputs throws exception
4. It's a type error to pass an int where a float is expected.
They went with option 3, and I think I agree that this is the least harmful/surprising choice. Proper statically typed languages don't have to make this unfortunate tradeoff.
Aardwolf•1h ago
Python is the only language doing this (of the ones I use at least).
I don't think the notation `x: float = 0` existed when it was new by the way so that can't be the design reason?
since python seems to handle integer through integer divisions as float (e.g. 5 / 2 outputs 2.5), 0 / 0 giving nan would seem to be expected there
> liskov substitution principle
that would imply one is a subtype of another, is that really the case here? there are floats that can't be represented as an integer (e.g. 0.5) and integers that can't be represented as a double precision float (e.g. 18446744073709551615)
kbolino•23m ago
The rationale is basically that newcomers to Python should see the results that they would expect from grade school mathematics, not the results that an experienced programmer would expect from knowing C. While the PEP above doesn't touch on division by zero, it does point toward the objective being a cohesive, layman-friendly numeric system.
[1]: https://peps.python.org/pep-0238/
caditinpiscinam•35m ago
IEEE floats should be a base on which more reasonable math semantics are built. Saying that Python should return NaN or inf instead of throwing an error is like saying that Python should return a random value from memory or segfault when reading an out-of-bounds list index.
paulddraper•9m ago
And the sensible thing will depend on that language.
adamzochowski•1h ago
NaN is a special type indicating one can't reason about it normal way.
It is an unknown or value that can't be represented.
When comparing, think of it like comparing two bags of unknown amount of apples.
One bag has NaN count of apples
Other bag has NaN count of apples
Do the two bags have equal number of apples?
I wish all languages used nulls the way SQL does.
caditinpiscinam•1h ago
If NaNs were meant to represent unknown quantities, then they would return false for all comparisons. But NaN != NaN is true. Assuming that two unknowns are always different is just as incorrect as assuming that they're always the same.
I'd also push back on the idea that this behavior makes sense. In my experience it's a consistent source of confusion for anyone learning to program. It's one of the clearest violations of the principle of least astonishment in programming language design.
As others have noted, it makes conscientious languages like Rust do all sorts of gymnastics to accommodate. It's a weird edge case, and imo a design mistake. "Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules."
Also, I think high level languages should avoid exposing programmers to NaN whenever possible. Python gets this right: 0/0 should be an error, not a NaN.
glkindlmann•49m ago
https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~wkahan/ieee754status/754st...
glkindlmann•1h ago
We take for granted that (except for things like x86 extended precision registers) floating point basically works the same everywhere, which was the huge victory of IEEE 754. It easy to lose sight of that huge win, and to be ungrateful, when one's first introduction to IEEE 754 are details like NaN!=NaN.
paulddraper•13m ago
1/0 is an error (SIGFPE). log(-5) is a value (NaN).
---
I suppose you could have this "no reflexive equality" sentinel, but it applied so randomly in languages as to be eternally violate the principle of least astonishment.
nitwit005•1h ago
It's a sentinel value for an error. Once you have an error, doing math with the error code isn't sensible.
caditinpiscinam•50m ago
What should sorted([3, nan, 2, 4, 1]) give you in Python?
A) [1, 2, 3, 4, nan] is an good option
B) [nan, 1, 2, 3, 4] is an good option
C) An error is an good option
D) [3, nan, 1, 2, 4] is a silly, bad option. It's definitely not what you want, and it's quiet enough to slip by unnoticed. This is what you get when Nan != NaN
NaN == NaN is wrong. NaN != NaN is wrong, unintuitive, and breaks the rest of your code. If you want to signal that an operation is invalid, then throw an error. The silently nonsensical semantics of NaN are the worst possible response